The Maxima that some of you love, maybe. Mine's MIA.

I think a cold reality here is that too many people are getting either too lazy or too busy with other things and want every little thing done for them. Just putting gas in it, point the damn thing more or less down the road, and go seems to be enough, with the ego being satisfied in part by whatever reputation the car has earned from previous iterations.

Maybe it's simply a case of (lack of) awareness of what's happening mechanically. If you're happy with a transmission that lets the engine roar without a commensurate increase in speed (sounding for all the world like somebody just starting to learn to drive stick and is abusing the poor clutch horribly) or one that shifts too soon, too late, or to often, fine. I'll notice warts like those even when I'm NOT paying attention.

Maybe it's "politically incorrect" these days to actually enjoy driving. In which case, all cars might as well be made by one or two of the kitchen appliance companies. No need for make or model differentiation, cars on the street won't differ from each other any more than NASCAR's "Car Of Tomorrow" cars differ from one team to another (engine make and a couple of decals). Can anyone say 'Bor-ing"? No thanks; I'll keep my defiant independence (and my MT).

I don't even mind driving a MT in heavy traffic. To me, it's a test of skill and I suppose endurance. My left leg is just fine, thank you very much, 4-prong staples, stainless steel screws, and all.

I feel that I have done my share, with two of the last three family cars being MT. The second one somewhat in spite of Max #1 digesting its input shaft bearing on approximately a 50,000 mile schedule (faulty bellhousing or engine machining suspected).

I guess it's obvious that I'm not content to just sit back when somebody gets up on a sort-of public soapbox and from all the evidence is glad that a major option choice has been removed for everybody simply because it doesn't fit his individual circumstances. To do that would be like admitting complicity. Be careful about expressing happiness when things like this happen. Something that you consider to be a major component of vehicle enjoyment now could at some point in the future face the same fate. What goes around, comes around.


Norm

 

But Norm... if there is no demand for it in the market (and 2 - 3% is not a demand over the yearly production of a Maxima) ... then why would a company spend the time to R&D the mechanics behid something that is going to lose it money.

You sit here saying, "Nor am I content to just sit back when somebody gets up on a sort-of public soapbox and from all the evidence is glad that a major option choice has been removed for everybody simply because it doesn't fit his individual circumstances. To do that would be like admitting complicity."

Well isn't that an individual circumstance? Maxima's don't come with a manual ... but your screaming for one, yet there are a lot of people out there who own '09 Maximas ... who are quite happy with their CVTs ... 2 - 3% of people however, would agree with you I'm sure.

 

thats just the thing it wont require much r&d nissan puts the same engine/tranny in the altima...****** the 6spf out of there and design a new lower center panel for the interior and modify the ecu and thats it...

 

No, they don't. But the original topic addressed the possibility that they might, which makes arguing in favor of it valid. I'm not the only one, just the most "vocal".

I suppose the "problem" is that Maximas always had MT's, and all by itself that had been enough to keep the Max on my short list for about 20 years. It's bad enough that Nissan pulled the rug out from underneath, which I do understand at least on an intellectual level.

The really annoying thing here is that there are those who express happiness that this has happened and apparently believe that others should adapt themselves to fit what fits their lifestyle (I'm way too stubborn for that). Sweeping statements like indicate that this belief is intended to extend beyond the world according to Maxima or even Nissan as a whole.

I notice that I slipped at least one edit into my previous post after you posted yours, so you might want to re-read.


Norm

 

Ok folks, this is drifting awfully close to worthless argument level.

If you don't like Nissan's decisions, consider contacting them. Arguing here isn't going to change anything.

 

Norm - I think you may be either missing or misinterpreting a few points here.

Nissan announced back in 2002 that they were taking the Maxima upscale to near-luxury flagship status, with a limited production run (say 70K), and its role as a MANUAL 4DSC would be filled by the 3.5 MANUAL version of the Altima, which is a high-volume (say 250K) vehicle. The '09 Maxima was introduced not as a MANUAL 4DSC, but simply as a 4DSC, and I agree that even that would be a stretch for those of us who have associated manuals with sports cars. But Nissan warned us back in 2002.

I drove manuals as early as the late 1940s, and was still driving a manual (Datsun) when I changed to an Automatic tranny when I obtained my first Maxima in October 1984. I have always loved manuals.

But I have found that, as time passes and things change, a few things change for the better. I majored in geophysics (courses such as Theoretical Mechanics), and understand very clearly that a transmission that does not shift has an inherent potential advantage in total efficiency (both acelleration and fuel economy) over any tranny that shifts.

I commuted for thirty years in Atlanta traffic, and the shifting fun you speak of does not exist when most of the route is 5 to 10 MPH, with every lane gridlocked and nowhere to pass. By the time I switched to an auto tranny, I was shifting over 1,000 times each day, but with most of that between first and second gear, with no room to rev the engine over 2K RPMs. That may be fun for the type of person that dives naked into 33 degree water, but certainly not for any normal person.

But again, these preceeding paragraphs are simply addressing the reality of what Nissan has done with the Maxima, and what I faced in Atlanta traffic in the early 1980s with a manual tranny. The much larger reality is something else. And that 'something else' is not the 'ease' with which rteenie22 feels Nissan could put a manual in this Maxima and get it certified by the appropriate government agencies. That does not even enter the equation.

This much larger reality is that almost nobody was buying the manual Maxima, dealers hated them, and they had lost money for Nissan for almost a dozen years. THAT, my friend, as I said in my previous post, is reality, and easily overrides all our nostalgia for the past or love of the manual tranny.

 

I think rteenie22 was thinking more along the lines of an individual DIY installation - something that would have been much simpler 20 or 30 years ago. Something that if I had deeper pockets I might still not write off as an option. Having to deal with all of the interconnected CAN electronic complexity - a whole 'nother rant - is probably outside my own capabilities. I've done a few "backyard" engine and/or tranny swaps and some other work that I suspect goes beyond what most of the members here would attempt. In fact, this very sort of swap was something that my wife seriously suggested as a possibility back when Chevy's RWD Monte Carlo SS was otherwise an attractive choice.

Evidently I bought Max #2 late enough in the game that I missed seeing Nissan's stated shift in direction for the car. I suppose that's "my bad", though there isn't as much reason to follow the new car market when you're happy with what you just bought and aren't even looking on a long-lead basis for the next car. That tells me that Nissan's target for the Max isn't BMW but Toyota. Or Buick. Not in this driveway.

Believe me, as an engineer with a 45+ year interest in things automotive I understand that CVT's can have efficiency and even performance advantages. It's that there's more to driving than the sterility of a few numbers.


Norm

 

Yes, it has devolved a bit - but more into a difference between ideologies than a personal dispute between individuals. On the one hand the concept that something that suits some individuals and their specific situation should be forced on the rest regardless of theirs, and on the other hand stubborn refusal to get stuffed into the same little box.

Bringing it up here may get more than just the current strongly-MT-preferring minority to think, and it won't be the people "on the fence" over the issue who will make it happen. So in a nutshell, nothing ventured, nothing gained.


Norm

 

You are far from the first to not be fully aware of Nissan's 'SHIFT'. Especially since it was sort of a double shift. From the 2002 announcement, it seemed the Maxima might be headed against the Avalon. When the '04 arrived, it indeed seemed to reinforce the feeling the Maxima was going to be a snappy, sporty version of the Avalon. Nothing happened between the '04 and the '07 to fully erase that feeling.

Then, as talk was beginning in '07 about the next generation Maxima, Carlos Ghosn announced that the Maxima was changing course again, and would return nearer its sporty roots. As planned, it would still become Nissan's flagship and would still be going upscale, but would be a slimmed-down, aggressively styled, tight handling 4DSC with plenty of power.

But a manual tranny was never mentioned, and the planned reduction in production numbers with this new upscale, near-luxury Maxima probably restricts tranny options to one. Had that one tranny been a manual, annual sales would have been a total disaster, because the Maxima advertises itself as a 'family' car, and many Maxima owners have a spouse or children who have zero interest in a manual. Even most drivers who have generations of experience with a manual would prefer not to have to drive them in gridlocked traffic, and many folks have to use their car in miserable traffic to get to/from work.

So the Altima is essentially Nissan's affordable 4 door family sedan with a manual tranny. But with 250,000 Altimas produced each year, that is not a car I would be attracted to just because of the availibility of a manual. I probably wouldn't even be able to find my Altima, as every parking lot is filled with them.

But I ramble. In a nutshell, we have almost surely seen the last manual Maxima, and, like it or not, I understand the economics involved.

 

You think the 04 Maxima is not sportier or snappier than the Avalon?

 

Please read my post again; I said the Maxima would be a 'snappy, sporty version of the Avalon.' That is saying fairly clearly that the new '04 Maxima, although somewhat similar to the Avalon, will differ from the Avalon in that it will be 'snappy' and 'sporty', which we all know the Avalon is not.

 

Gotcha! I did not understand what u meant before...

 

No problem. You are far from the only person who sometimes misinterprets my posts. I have decided the problem must be partly mine.

I would never disparage the '04 Maxima. I just finished driving an '04 SL for almost five years, and it was a wonderful and trouble-free car. I was very sad to part with it, but this '09 was just screaming my name.

 

No worries, happens on forums all the time.
Good to hear about another trouble free 04

 

We share a (mostly) common language but not the experiences and bases for making interpretations, so "mismatches" are bound to happen. I'm guilty as well, likely in both the sending and receiving directions.

Briefly with respect to another little OT diversion - the Altima remains a possible choice. In my case it's less a problem with the Altima being a higher volume model than getting past a mild stigma associated with "stepping down to a lower model" after having owned two flagships of the same make.


Norm

 

Well the thing I seem to sense the most is that many ppl who are screaming for a Manual are more absorbed with going fast or being in control of what their transmissions is doing all the time.

Naturally, anyone who is interested in racing albeit drag, street or strip would definitely want a Manual but I too believe like Light pointed out that this car (09 Max) is more about gentlemanly upscale refinement and panache than just having bragging rights as the fastest (or one of the fastest) family four doors on the market.

For me the Maxima 09 is the perfect blend in a FWD Sedan, it looks great, drives and turns well, delivers excellent balance between the interior and exterior about its' intentions and doesn't scream to the world with the addition of a Manual that I'm about going fast all the time.

I see numerous of Mag Editors and Speedfreaks wishing this car had a Manual but they fail to realize that this isn't the direction that Nissan was taking this car despite its' claim of "Four Door Sports Car".

I think the Altima has assumed the Maximas former mantle/hallmark (4DSC) moniker (even if they still place this sticker on Maximas) because just one look/drive and feel of the Maxima and you know it has grown up significantly as the Altima's big brother.

No more BoyRacer for the Maxima, unless you want to add a Big Rear Wing Spoiler and some Fart Can exhausts. LOL!

 

As luck would have it, this afternoon I was sorting through some stacks of stuff I'd saved, and I stumbled across an old AutoWeek magazine open to a column that addresses this topic.

A couple of the points the author made was that for most people, arriving at the destination is more important than the drive to get there, and that driving itself is more like work than play.


Thinking back a lot further, my Dad gave up manual transmissions for the primary vehicle in the mid/late 1950's, about the time he changed his job and his commute went from about a mile and a half across a small town with maybe two traffic lights to 24 miles to and through Boston and into Cambridge. I doubt that it was coincidence - he grew up through the 1930's Great Depression, was only in his mid-30's at the time, not inclined to act on impulse, and automatics were still looked at as something of an extravagance if your name didn't have letters like MD or Esq following it. Point being that he must have had an over-riding reason to make the switch.


Norm

 

Ahhh, the memories! When I moved from a manual shift '49 Studebaker to a '53 Chevy, I was tempted to go automatic. But those first automatic trannies in the early '50s had only two speeds, and there was a lot of mushy slippage, so I went to a manual '53 Chevy. But the automatics improved quickly, and soon I was driving a '55 Pontiac Star Chief with a rather decent automatic. I stuck to Pontiacs with automatics until '66, when I began a string of automatic tranny Oldsmobiles with a Delta 88 (my first car with air conditioning).

That Olds was the first car I ever drove an extended distance (65 miles) at over 100 MPH. I did that on a deserted road in southwest Texas, and that car felt like it was doing 70 MPH when it was actually sitting on 110. But by '78, I was driving a 5 speed manual 1900cc Datsun 200SX. That was a fun little car. My daughter loved it so much she finally took it for her own.

Norm, I like your idea that professional folks with lots on their minds (such as your father) were more likely to go with automatics, as they were usually thinking about their workday and business affairs. That was one of the reasons I switched back to automatics in '84. With the extreme stress involved with my job, the last thing I was thinking about on my long and congested drive to work was driving fun. My office hours and long nights on call were so arduous I sometimes drove with a few tears easing down my face. Especially during stretches where I was working over seventy hours weekly for months on end. During those long years, a manual tranny was the last thing I needed.

Yes, I agree with you that those seriously into driving for driving's sake should consider a manual, and once we get around the fact there are millions on the road, the Altima may be the best car FOR THE MONEY out there. CU rates it the best family sedan, and the 3.5 manual could be a fun (and reliable) car to drive.

But I guess this doesn't belong on the 7th gen board, other than to sort of help explain why now, at my advanced age, I am very comfortable and extremely happy with this new and outstanding CVT on the '09. I get my kicks watching the tach, speedo and MPG display under all conditions of acelleration, cruising and coasting in all situations of uphill, downhill and level ground. I love my new CVT-driven 2009 290HP 'play pretty' (my dear late Mom's name for a toy).

 

Both the Maxima and the Altima are considered for both their luxury and performance.
Eventhough Infiniti is the luxury brand of Nissan, we can compare the g35 sedan to the maxima. But what we sometimes forget is that style is what drives us crazy! Sometimes automakers forget this! Although my opinion is that nissan is currently focusing more on infiniti with the invailing of the 2009 g37 convertible. How would u feel about a maxima coupe, or a maxima convertible even. I have a 2005 maxima and i would get something like that in a heartbeat

 

A Max Coupe would be hella sexy, in fact somebody posted a photoshop pic of a Max 09 with 2 less doors. Though the photochop looked sexy it did carry a little too much Benzness in it to be exclusively Maxima but it was the idea that counted.

Search around and you'll find it in this forum.

 

Until its 347 started making horrible internal engine noises, I owned a '57 edition of that car. IIRC, it was a 4A with a fluid coupling rather than a torque converter. Speedometer died on a trip to Montreal I took with a couple of college buddies, but the mileposts were coming up at mid to high 30 second intervals for over an hour.

Dad was completely blue-collar at the time with his journeyman's electrician's license, and that's why it stood out to me even then. Things like that clearly fell into the category of luxury item, and beyond what we were accustomed to seeing. By the time he made supervisor of maintenance and gave up the working man's uniform for a white shirt and tie, automatics were being fitted to well over 50% of virtually every available car model and it was simply 'expected'. I'll have to see if I can get his side of the story.

Between 1965 and 1970 I commuted with him to get to school and various co-op jobs. By the end of that stage in my life, I had decided that I would go well out of my way to avoid such a commute regardless of car or transmission type. Except for a few brief "temporary office reassignments", I've managed to pull it off.



FUEGO - I don't think a convertible Maxima will ever happen, and I rather doubt a coupe version either (due to the existence of the Altima coupe, Maxima production levels, and the expense involved with crash certification of a substantially different structure and recertification of ABS, TCS, stability control, etc.).

Rear seat access for at least some of the target population would be a major sticking point. I can still get into the back seat of my '08 Mustang without excessive difficulty (as can my grown children and son-in-law), but that doesn't mean that any of us would be willing to do so on a daily basis. Our 20AE Maxima is still the vehicle of choice when more than two adults are involved, and there will always be a requirement for at least one car with that level of easy utility. 4DSC is as hardcore as the Maxima has ever been.


Norm

 

And on that note, it looks like Nissan is also planning on pulling the Maxima out of the diesel race.

 

Last I heard, Nissan had only said the diesel announced for the 2010 had been deferred due to the depression in the auto industry. I haven't heard them say it wouldn't be in the 2011 'half-generation', or maybe the 2014 8th gen. I understand the clean diesel engine developed primarily by Renault for diesel-happy Europeans will be the one used when (if ?) the time comes to drop it into the Maxima.

 

I was living in southern Arizona (Bisbee, Tombstone, Sierra Vista) while driving that 4 speed automatic '55 Star Chief, making trips to LA and back to the east coast. That Pontiac would really fly, and was quite comfortable. There were few four lane roads or freeways back then, so, of necessity, I became very proficient at high-speed passing. Much more skill was required to pass back then, because tires were not radial, not belted, and were tall and narrow (84 profile), with little rubber in contact with the road. Fishtailing was a way of life for high speed drivers, and anti-lock brakes were still a wild idea in some scientist's mind.

It almost boggles my mind when I consider the countless improvements this '09 Maxima has over those cars I grew up with.

 

all great points, both for and against a manual maxima. I may be in the minority in Nissans eyes, but I prefer the manual. just had to buy a new car and having a manula was on the MUST HAVE list, I would not consider a car with an auto. ended up with an 02 se 6 speed

 

Yes, you are clearly in a very small minority, because Nissan gave us a manual Maxima up through the '06 model year, by which time dealers couldn't give the manual Maximas away, so they stopped accepting them from Nissan. This was neither the dealer's fault or Nissan's fault. The buying public just wasn't interested in manuals, and both Nissan and the dealers were taking a financial bath trying to push them on a public that wasn't interested. Just Economics 101 in action. Only a fool would produce a product he couldn't sell.

 

yes, very true. just look at GM... just a damn shame that it isn't even an option any more. same with the altima, if I am reading nissans website correct I would have to get a coupe to get the 6 speed. guess when I replace this car it will be with a TL type S. since I will only be buying used and it will be a while from now. Acura better keep making them lol!

 

"Economics 101" . . . makes me wonder, though. Would a mfr ever consider offering the MT as a special-order item only, possibly at extra cost? One still can have cars built to order at least for US domestics, and it shouldn't be all that difficult for US-assembled "imports" to do likewise.

While I might not expect Nissan to be the trailblazer here at least as long as Carlos Ghosn is in charge (he's way too enamored of the CVT), I can see where it could happen. Economics? The difference of a thousand buyers at $500 more for a $35k MT car that costs less to build than its AT/CVT twin isn't just the half million to maybe a million dollars for the price difference - it's likely tied more to that $35k number and actual number of sales.

Here's a link that's perhaps not too far off topic - http://blog.roadandtrack.com/the-deh...fting/?cid=145


Norm

 

I just do NOT want a cvt. and yes, I am familiar with how it works and its benefits. same principal in snowmobiles. works good, just not perfect and certainly not what I want in a car

 

I can certainly understand how you feel. The CVT comes across as sort of a permanent 'autopilot', where decisions are no longer within the pilot's control. Many pilots would not be happy with giving up control.

But then my many long years of sitting in physics classes nags at me, teling me I should understand that a CVT, once perfected, will produce the best efficiency, as well as the best acceleration, because it does not have those instants where the tranny is shifting, the motor is still running, and essentially nothing is being produced in the way of acceleration of the vehicle.

Testers seem to agree that the new CVT in the 7th generation Maxima is superior to previous CVTs. I have found it to be a real pleasure to drive. Of course, I have had to learn to drive again, because, to drive this CVT most efficiently, all the things I have learned over sixty years of driving have to be rethought.

There will always be a cadre of manual drivers who would prefer to stick with the old fun way of driving than try to adapt to a new technology that seems, at first glance, to somewhat take the 'driver' out of driving. I understand that.

 

I think one of the wider complaints about CVTs is that they tend to produce a "motorboating" sensation, or the sensation you get when the sound of the engine revving is disconnected from what the wheels and the car are doing. When this happens, it's working absolutely as intended and quite likely at a better efficiency point. Better performance - maybe (this would depend at least on the CVT programming and the engine's torque curve). A torque converter equipped conventional automatic does this as well (especially in low gear accelerating from a dead stop). Just not to quite the same extent.

Anyway, this "motorboating" tends to conflict with what drivers accustomed to more conventional transmissions have come to expect - both the car speed and engine rpm both generally increasing together. A CVT, on the other hand, can (will?) appear to be exactly like having a MT with a bad clutch slip problem or a conventional automatic with excessive flare on upshift. Both of those are conditions that have the potential for leaving you stranded, and involve at least a moderately expensive repair job. That's what many peoples' experience is going to tell them if they're paying much attention, so the trick is to get people past the psychological side of it.

Perhaps the dedicated MT drivers among us are a bit more "tuned in" to what the mechanical bits of our cars are doing, and more sensitive to behavior that doesn't fit well with what is expected. It might be interesting to find out how the acceptability of CVTs falls across the AT vs MT line.

As I understand it, some CVTs now tend to seek out specific positions rather than behaving in true continuously variable fashion. Somehow, I'm not surprised.


Norm

 

 

off topic really, but I noticed with the cvt in my car, if I am on a hill say facing upwards, and i switch from reverse to drive, the old tranny would have some gear tension and I would not roll back as much, the cvt feels like I am in nuetral and it really rolls backwards fast. I was startled when i first experienced this doing a k turn on a hill.

 

OMG, who necro'ed this old post. LOL

 

I tend to see much of this as Norm does. Our past experiences do indeed influence our view of the present and the future. And there is a sort of 'motorboating' effect with the CVT.

I have finally grown to understand and appreciate the CVT, but only this particular CVT on the 7th gen Maxima. I did not like the reviews I was hearing from drivers of earlier CVTs.

As to how my AT/MT experience/preference goes, it is rather mixed.

From around 1945 until 1949, I did not have a driver's license, but maneuvered semis around my uncle's trucking company warehouse lot. I got to be a fairly good 'backer', reaching the point where I was able to position trailers exactly at the loading docks. But I seldom got out of reverse and low gear. I began real-world driving in 1949 on a manual Studebaker. I then drove a manual '53 Chevy sedan. Then I drove a long series of slush boxes for around 25 years. Then, from '78 until '84, I drove a 5 speed manual Datsun 200SX.

Until that point, I had a slight preference for a manual tranny. But around 1984, I became aware I was having to shift that little 5 speed Datsun between 800 and 900 times on the way to work, and the same on the way home, mostly using only the bottom two gears and neutral. Spending an hour each way in stop-and-go creepy-crawl traffic will do that. It was suddenly not nearly as much fun driving a manual as it was back when I could use all 5 gears in normal traffic. I decided the manual was not the best tranny for that type of commuting. I switched to a Maxima in fall of '84 and never looked back. Haven't owned anything but auto-tranny Maximas ever since.

If traffic was like it was 'back in the days', I would prefer a manual. But it isn't, so I don't.

 

yeah, and I can see why you would like or prefer the auto. I live in NH, stop in go traffic is just not in my driving so I get to use, and would rather have, all the speeds of a manual tranny.

 

Folks, there's now a thread dedicated to MT VS CVT in the forum. Feel free to have all the fun you want there.

 

But . . . but . . . we are used to having this MT/CVT topic re-appear as a new thread every month; sometimes more often. This is the way things have always been on the ORG. Why try to change things now? Why all this effort to put things in order? We have always been able to muddle along just fine with our traditional disorder and eternal duplication. I'm not sure the Org could survive as a logical, orderly board.

 

Lol Light, you crack me up. You want chaos and disorder we can send an invite for some of the more ENERGETIC 3/4 gen folks to stop by. Hahahaha I'm sure they can liven it up a bit.

There. I edited and clarified my statement before I cause a riot with our fellow Maxima owners.

 

blah... I am already here as I am sure some other members are lurking around...