After the lashing the Gov't is giving Toyota for their slow recall, it seems every other manufacture who is even considering a recall is getting it out there before something happens.

Seems our Nissan isn't innocent, but fortunately for all Maxima owners, we're not on the list.

But if you have one of the SUV's or MiniVans, you might want to check to see if you are on that list.

BTW this is just a FYI thread, not for anyone to bash Toyota, Nissan, Ford, Chevy, etc....

 

I had heard this on the news this morning. As you indicated, no Nissan sedans were involved. This type situation is indusrty-wide. Yesterday, GM recalled a ton of cars (power steering motors). I think Ford had a recent recall, and other companies have also had problems. I agree with your thought that the Toyota fiasco has resulted in a climate where all car companies are trying to be proactive with all problems, and that should be good for the public.

 

Ssshhhh!!! If I can't see it, it's not happening! *Covers Eyes*

 

i never understood how people involved in these accidents didnt have the presence of mind to slap the shifter into neutral and use the EMERGENCY brake in their state of EMERGENCY

 

I have heard and read from quite a few Accord owners as well as from professional car reviews that their front brakes are too weak to handle such a huge and heavy car. As a result, they overheat after a bit of driving and tend to perform unsatisfactorily. But I have not seen any recall from Honda.

Wonder if Honda is going the Toyota way!

 

I read a story where a cop sitting in the back seat of an out of control Camry doing 120 mph called 911 for help. The car ended up crashing and killing everyone in it. It's got to be that the car ignores all commands to stop, such as engaging neutral, turning off the ignition, putting it into park, stomping on the brake. etc.. With a mind of its own, it just takes off. Notwithstanding the denials from Toyota, the root cause must be electrical to account for such strange behavior.

At the end of the day, Toyota will end up modifying their design to incorporate a kill circuit. If you stomp on the brake, the computer infers that you don't want the throttle open, so it kills the TBW signal. It's common sense. We have it in the Max.

 

we all know about Toyota' recall, Ford has a recall on its Fusion and Milan Hybrids brakes/pedals, GM recalled 1.3 million yesterday, Honda had some recent recalls, and now Nissan so all the automakers are recall trigger happy after Toyota's recent trouble

almost every major automaker is having recalls! guess its good for us consumers, considering we are the ones driving the products in the recalls!!! thankfully our Maxima's aren't and are kicking butt!!!

 

That was exactly how I felt about this Toyota thing from when I first heard of it around 1996, and I held that opinion until just a few years ago. What happened a few years ago that changed my feelings? Several things, including:

1 - Reports that accident investigators checking out these wrecked Toyotas were finding ALL brake pads burned to a useless crisp from desperate attempts to stop the car.

2 - Independent engineers telling us the braking system on the Toyota is not adequate to stop the car if the engine is in a runaway situation and the car is in gear.

3 - Finding out that, if the car is in motion, the 'start-stop' button on the Toyota must be held all the way down at least a full three seconds before it will turn off the engine. No other manufacturer's vehicles have this particular requirement. No Toyota wreck survivors that investigators talked to knew about how this stop-start situation works on the Toyota.

4 - Safety experts have always warned us NOT to turn off the ignition until we have put the car in neutral and pulled off the road, because doing so takes away both braking and steering (both are power-operated, and that power stops when the engine cuts off).

5 - Few folks know exactly where 'neutral' is on their gear selector. 'Park' is always at one end of the shift gate, and drive at the other. Things in between are different from car-to-car, and are usually poorly marked, or even (like our 7th gen Maxima) virtually unmarked. In a true panic situation, unless drivers have studied the shift gate and memorized the 'neutral' position ahead of time, they have no chance.

Most German car manufacturers, some Chrysler products and most Nissan products are currently the only vehicles having a 'safety stop' system that senses strong brake application and immediately reduces engine power, even if the onboard computer thinks the gas pedal is still being pushed. There is now a campaign underway to have this system made mandatory on all vehicles.

 

did anyone see the story about the guy who is in jail? He drove a toyota (i believe) and crashed thru an intersection and killed 2 people. this was years ago. he said basically the car took over and he couldnt stop. he wasnt drunk, under the influence etc. he was found guilty of manslaughter etc. now, with the recent recalls etc, they are reopening the case bc back then they couldnt prove that was the case with the faulty accelerator/brake etc. they tried to prove it but no go. im not proclaiming whether he was guilty/not, but it made me stop for a moment today and think, damn. if in fact he is truly not guilty, this guy has been in jail for years and was truly innocent.

 

This may be the situation last August where a California Highway Patrolman was driving a top-of-the-line Lexus LS on a California freeway with three relatives riding with him. The LS went into a runaway situation, and his brother in the back seat called 911 to report that nothing was working and they could not stop the car. That 911 call was replayed several times on the national news at the time.

The Lexus eventually overshot the end of the freeway at over 120 MPH, flew over a hundred feet through the air, and all four people were incinerated in the ensuing fireball.

Did I say 'Lexus'? I absolutely did. This type accident has happened with many Lexuses. I have posted on Maxima.org many times that the exact same problem exists in the Lexus, and Toyota is either criminally negligent in not including their Lexus line in the recall, or are stupid beyond rational belief.

 

Well listen up, the ABS issue on this car is a DIRE issue I assure you. Had it all replaced after total failure at 30k, then when the issue came back, just being due to corrosion in the rear hubs this time, resulted in literal break failure everytime the car was first driven and first breaked in cold weather. I had to STAND on the break to make the car stop creeping into traffic when leaving a parking lot into moving traffic before I came to expect it before it was fixed. This required pulling the E brake at times when this would happen. Should this happen because the ABS system was failing? It didnt happen the first time but the second time it came back at about 80k it was downright scarey and coudl have easilly resulted in a Prius like accident, perhaps even more easy if I wasnt fortunately just creeping from a stop.

 

Man, thats crazy!

 

04BlackMaxx - With 80K on the odo and a photo of a 6th gen on your post, should I assume it is an '04 Maxima that has this ABS problem? But since you are posting on the 7th gen board, this might be a 7th gen with the ABS problem? This is the first time I have heard of this type problem on any generation Maxima. Really a strange situation.

 

I'm pretty sure our 7th Gen Max's have the same "three second" rule. I remember my techs asking me to use this method to "reset" my Climate Controlled Seat a year or so back.
It is a bit un-nerving but does indeed work but is the "only way" I've found to turn the engine "off" at speed.

Is there another mechanism I am unaware of? Thanks for pointing this out Light, you may have saved a few lives!

 

Apparently not true. A lot of good info in this article:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...tion-tech_dept

 

I wonder though if this recall will negatively effect Toyota sales for the long term. There are a lot of loyal Toyota buyers out there (my wife included) that would still go out and buy another Toyota even after this major fiasco they have had with the accelerator pedals.

 

Good find, but note that in the most strenuous of C/D's tests, the brakes completely gave out before they were able to bring the car to a complete halt, at which point an inexperienced driver would simply see the car immediately acellerate and run away again. That is why investigators checking the wreckage of runaway Toyotas are finding the brake pads burned to a useless crisp.

I will agree that Toyota brakes are NOT the problem. I should have reworded the engineer's findings to indicate that few cars have brakes that would be able to completely stop a car from speeds of 120 MPH and the engine running full bore.

 

Not sure which test you're talking about? The 120 mph Camry test which followed 70 mph and 100 mph, or the 540 hp 100mph Mustang run. Neither of those scenarios seem likely.

I'd be willing to bet that if the 120 mph run was the "first" one, the Camry would have stopped fine.

I can't help but wonder whether the problem is indeed the DBW software. Also - we Nissan owners can be glad that power is killed when the brakes are applied.

 

I havent posted in awhile and didnt yet realize 7th gen is now the latest not the 6th

Yes this is a 2004 maxima, and it is related to the ABS problem that is pretty widely posted in the 6th gen forum. I have 106k on the car now and have been problem free since 80-90k or whenever the hubs were finally cleaned out. I think my cold climate affected it and thats why the total brake failure isnt widely known, but if this happened to an unsuspecting woman who couldnt stand on the brake with alot of force, you seriously need to think fast and grab the e-brake. I think it was probably in the 20 degree range outside at the time.

 

I was totally unaware of this situation with the 6th gen. I will mention this to my 6th gen friends whenever I see them.

 

I was talking about the last Camry test. What we DO know is that accident investigators are saying the brake pads in many of these runaway wrecks end up as absolutely useless toast. So whether the problem was that the perfectly good brakes were never designed for this type service (we know they weren't), or whether the driver, under severe duress and panic, did not use the brakes to maximum advantage, is actually not relevant. For any article to blame the driver in these situations means the writer has no conception of the absolutely minimal emergency skills and low threshhold of panic today's average driver has.

As an example, the driver who hit the seven cars in the parking lot at Christian City (near me) with her Lexus was still sitting in total shock with a death grip on the steering wheel and the motor still racing when a physical trainer finally ran out of the nearby exercise room and turned the car off. A Toyota engineer flew in from out of town, and said the accident was the fault of the car.

You don't have to wonder any longer about an electronic glitch. I have insisted all along the floor mat/acellerator pedal factors may have caused a few incidents, but are not the cause of most of these disastrous runaways. Nothing other than an electronics glitch can explain this problem.

What kind of electronic problem? This could be incorrect computer programming, a circuit problem because of a shorted wire, rust forming in a sensitive area, etc. I am in fear it may be a 'whisker' problem, where use of the new lead-free solder results in fine wisps of solder falling across circuits that should not be connected. Those happen very inconsistently, and are extremely difficult to spot.

 

Yes, we do have an additional shutoff option with the Maxima, and I have tested it, used it, and posted on it somewhere here a year or so ago. I used this method again today just to confirm it works just as it did when I tried it about a year ago:

We have the 'hold the START button down at least three seconds' method similar to Toyotas, and we also have the 'three quick taps' option. If, while the car is moving, I tap the START button quickly three times, the motor shuts off. I find my spastic nature enables me to make the three needed taps in under a half-second.

I also looked closely at the 'neutral' position of our shift gate. It is fairly easy to spot at night because it is lit up. But I had more difficulty finding it in daylight. In a daytime runaway panic situation combined with an inexperienced driver, I would not expect that driver to find 'neutral', even if they had the presence of mind to think about using it.

 

Toyota's fix for the runaway acceleration is a shim. Cars "fixed" with this shim have been reported to still exhibit unintended acceleration. I suspect the "fix" was quick and dirty and Toyota will have to look deeper. By the way, the fix was also used to field-repair new on-the-lot cars also. So if you buy new, and think you're safe, you're wrong: you still have the cooties.

CD's field reports say that a car's brakes can stop a full throttle car. Perhaps. I think after the test was done, the engine was shut off. What if the throttle remains open as in the real world? How long will fried brakes hold 200 hp in check? When I accelerate my Max at full throttle, it is a ride to behold. I cannot believe brakes alone can stop the fury of 290 hp.

 

i stand corrected

 

Light, where is the documentation of the mechanism on the Maxima that kills the throttle when the brakes are depressed? I have never heard of this feature before? Please enlighten me sir. Thanks.

Also, i'm not sure why car manufacturers aren't manufacturing the bus pedal style accelerator pedals like on my previous M35x? It's impossible to get any floor mats stuck or in the way of operation.

 

I'm obviously NOT Light, but the quote below from the Car and Driver article references it. I have seen it mentioned several other places also while discussing the Toyota acceleration. I don't believe it's a "mechanism", it's more than likely electronic.

"But Toyota could do better. Since the advent of electronic throttle control, many automakers have added software to program the throttle to close—and therefore cut power—when the brakes are applied. Cars from BMW, Chrysler, Nissan/Infiniti, Porsche, and Volkswagen/Audi have this feature, and that’s precisely why the G37 aced this test. Even with the throttle floored and the vehicle accelerating briskly, stabbing the brakes causes the engine’s power to fade almost immediately, and as a result, the Infiniti stops in a hurry. From speeds of 70 or even 100 mph, the difference in braking results between having a pinned throttle or not was fewer than 10 feet, which isn’t discernible to the average driver. As a result of the unintended-acceleration investigation, Toyota is adding this feature posthaste."

 

thanks gizzsdad. it's good to know that a simple function built into the ECU can stop a runaway car. not sure why the engineers at Toyota didn't add this feature into all of their cars. glad to know "Christine" won't kill me if it gets upset with me. LOL.

BTW, "Christine" is a movie!

 

Just as gizzsdad said (thanks for including the C/D reference, grizzdad), I picked it up from news mags, the daily newspaper and TV reports. I read these reports carefully, because I have been extremely disappointed by what amounts to a blatent coverup of serious safety problems by Toyota since the first runaway incidents back around 1996.

About seven years ago, Toyota hired two engineers who had been working for our government agency that was investigating this runaway problem, then had them convince their friends who were still working in that capacity to rewrite the criteria for which incidents should be covered in a way that precluded the runaway Toyotas from further investigation. By the time this Toyota charade is over, I expect serious repercussions for this deed.

With the Camry, Toyota recalled only the ones built since 2007, because that is when they redesigned the floor mats and gas pedal. But U.S. government report released last week shows the number of runaway incidents with the Camry has been at the same high level since 2001. The gas pedal and floor mat suggestions are either grasping at straws, or a calculated delay tactic to give more time to find the real problem. Another example of Toyota's effort to minimize the situation.

It was apparent to most technically-oriented folks many years ago that this problem absolutely had to be in an electronics system. The reason Toyota does not think so is that their onboard computer system is not detecting an electronics problem. What Toyota does not grasp is the fact their onboard computer system is not seeing this malfunction, and that is the exact reason it allows it to take place unimpeded by system checks or overrides.

I said here on the ORG last fall that we were a very long way from resolving this Toyota problem, and that it would get much worse before it gets better. Even as bad as things have gotten since then, they are going to get much worse, as the real problem has not yet been found, is much wider distributed than Toyota says (recall should also have included most Lexuses and gone back many more years), and may prove very difficult to fix when finally found.

I see Ford, Honda, Hyundai and Nissan as being the brands best positioned to pick up sales as a result of this botched performance by Toyota.

 

So my apologies if I overlooked someone sayign this already but just as an FYI/clarification, One possible fix for the Toyota problem or rather a bandaid for it is that they are re-flashing the computer on the cars so that in the event of a "runaway" car, the fuel will be cut off IF the gas pedal AND brake pedal are depressed doing more than 25MPH.

So says an owner of a brand new Toyota Camry per what the dealership told them.

 

Indded you are correct, they had 2 owners that had the "fix" on the news today. They stated that the cars exhibited the same unwanted accelleration after the fix....

 

Come to think of it, yes...the triple tap does work on ours. I have, however, started "training" my friends and family (even to my shame my bride did not know how to shut off the engine while driving with the new fangled "push to start" type of cars) on the more (apparently) ubiquitous 3 sec rule. This should at least give them a chance when renting a car at the airport or (should our Max(s) ever have an issue) some first hand expertise on how to avoid the situation.

 

Thank goodness, Nissans, most Germanic makes, and some Chryslers are the only vehicles with the system that cuts engine power when hard braking is detected.

 

Yesterday, in San Diego, a Toyota Prius accelerated all on it's own to dangerous speeds. This particular vehicle was brought in by its owner to Toyota for the recall. Toyota told them that his vehicle was not affected and is safe.

This man was driving on I-8 eastbound when the Prius went exothermic. The vehicle, all on its own, accelerated to 90 mph. The driver implemented several interventions, including pulling up on the accelerator pedal. The wild ride lasted 20 minutes, enough time for the man to call 911. A a police cruiser intercepted the out of control car. Using the cruiser's speakers, the cop instructed the driver to use the foot brake and emergency brake simultaneously. This combination succeeded in reducing the speed of the car to less than 50 mph which allowed the engine to be turned off.

Toyota insists that the "problem" is mechanical, perhaps due to floor mats. This not the case here since the driver tried to pull up on the accelerator. Close to 50 people have died due to the "problem." The engineers at Toyota have not shown to be world class as they continually point to a root cause that is inapposite with the evidence. They sound more like defense lawyers.

 

They've yet to analyze the car, how can they make a definitive statement until then? All we have right now is a 60 y/o claiming the throttle was stuck and he couldn't get it to come back up. I find it amazing that the driver couldn't put the car into neutral or kill the engine until the cop with a megaphone walked him though it, however supposedly while all this was going on he was able to reach down and try and pull up on the accelerator while driving at 90 mph. I think the media keeps exaggerating this story as time goes by.

I think Toyota has a multitude of issues here with the various models/makes, this issue very well maybe a computer related issue, however until it's investigated by NHTSA and Toyota this is all speculation and yes Toyota should sound defensive until proven otherwise.

 

How could the car not let you turn the engine off? Even if you have the push button if you hold it for 4 seconds it turns off, doesn't matter what speed your going at.

 

Not when there's a programming issue with the ECU... which is what I think is the true culprit in all of this mess. The guy in the Prius couldn't turn the car off.

 

The lost of 50 lives due to unintended acceleration should compel Toyota to put on their thinking cap and put their lawyers on the back burner. They have had years to get to the root cause and have not done so.

In all I have read about this issue, the burning question as articulated by many on this thread is: why did the victims not turn off the engine, or put the tranny in neutral? These options should have entered the minds of some of the people involved.

If we classify the possible interventions, there seems to be a trend. Systems that are electronic based, such as throttle, engine off/on, and gear selection, seem not to work. Changing any one of these should terminate the acceleration quickly. However, the interventions that seem to work are mechanical, not electronic; the foot brakes and the emergency brake. This observation should be obvious to Toyota.

Just last night, another Prius went through a stone fence in Westchester NY. The driver was not hurt.

Toyota's engineers are stymied. I think they should put a black box device on all production cars to record electronic signals as these events unfold.

 

No auto maker has a "black box" to reconstruct accidents.... The systems they all have is just for diagnostic data not reconstructing events. It will take a law to enact such technology, i.e. same thing happened with the airline industry in the 60's.

 

This is one reason I'm glad I still have a throttle cable.

 

There is a law that requires cars to have a "small" black box. It records 5 minutes of speed, accelerator pedal position, etc. The purpose of this is to diagnose traffic accidents. If you say that you were not doing 100 mph, the black box can say otherwise. This feature is on your Maxima.

What I am talking about is a "large" black box that Toyota, all on its own, installs on its cars to get to the bottom of this mess. This black box will record a much greater number of variables.

Consider this analogy: The human heart is an electro-mechanical device. Electrical mis-firings are sometimes hard to diagnosis because the symptoms dos not present itself when you're in the doctor's office. To obtain diagnostic data, the doc will place you on a Holter monitor that you wear 24/7. This device will capture the electrical mis-firings of the heart and record it for the doctor to analyze.

By using a black box approach, Toyota will capture the unintended acceleration event in real time and under real conditions.