97maximaman

Just curious if its even possible and what would be required. Im considering a RSB and Eibach springs and have no idea how close this will get me. I drove my friends 325i ad i was hooked. I mean the thing never skids and the body barely rolls. We took a windy road at close to 100 and the car felt like it was meant for it. Im not looking to do coilovers because im on a budget of about 600 but is there anything better than eibachs?

DrunkieTheBear

iTrader: (17)

The truth is, a maxima will never handle like a BMW.

You can do all the good stuff like...
Shocks/Struts
Springs
FSTB
LTB
SFC
RSBR
RSTB
Fender Braces
Bushings
Tie Rods
and some other stuff

but the fact of the matter is, it will never be a BMW

if you look at the BMW layout of the Chasis you can see why it handles.
Wheels at all four corners seems to be a key.
Also how the way the weight is balanced.

i30krab

iTrader: (1)

If you still have a 4th gen FWD there is no way you'll get the BMW suspension no matter what you spend. I've spent big bucks trying on my 96 I30
, The suspension is greatly improved but I still have torque steer under WOT. Since I'm used to it I know what to do but my car is not RWD!
My car does put out 342FWHP with the SC and 430FWHP with the N20 so your situation may be different.

DrunkieTheBear

iTrader: (17)

A yes they have a theory for that

THE CHAOS THEORY.

where the primary wheels do everything from steer to put the power down

BTW where's Irish, I believe he wrote something a while back about why we will never handle like a BMW

Fast1one

iTrader: (12)

The rear beam, that alone is a big limiter

DrKlop

iTrader: (3)

1 - different suspension design (results in less body roll, more travel, better control of the camber/toe/caster)

2 - rigid chassis (allows suspension do a better job)

3 - RWD ( better weight distribution, and that spreading work between front/rear wheels stuff)

I would also imagine 3 series chassis has a lower center of gravity.

Sorry for disappointing you, but maxima will never handle like a BMW.

BTW, here's a post I made a while ago on this topic, that might also help: http://forums.maxima.org/showpost.ph...29&postcount=3

Delvin

My 3rd Gen was as close to a Maxima handling like a BMW as I've ever seen. The independent rear suspension works so much better than the beam type suspension when it comes to handling and comfort. My 740iL corners as flat as my modded 4th gen and it floats over bumps!!!

00SEMAX19

iTrader: (4)

Buy a BMW!

You will never handle as well as a sport tuned european car with a max.

The main joy of owning a maxima is that you get a 4 door sedan that has some *****. Great for making people feel stupid on the street but as for handling?, I'd rather slow down and let somebody else fly off the road on corners.

nismology

iTrader: (8)

+1. And just to add something, the long wheelbase doesn't help things at all in light of the **** poor weight distribution. And the fact that both the engine and tranny are in front of axle line...

With that said, there's no reason to abandon suspension work on the maxima. Make it as good as it can be.

Norm Peterson

You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear, but you can make a very quick pig.

IOW, you can probably match the BMW's measured numbers given decent or better pavement. Just don't expect to match the "feel".


On further thought, you might be able to get the "feel" close if you did all sorts of extreme work (converting to RWD/IRS, revising the mass distribution, stiffening the chassis, etc., etc.). But you wouldn't exactly have a Maxima any more . . . a Maxima silhouette, perhaps?


Norm

The Law

iTrader: (39)

Buy a BMW

!PrjctMax!

iTrader: (38)

Right when I read the title I giggled just imagining what type of responses were already in here!

Sadly... on all counts. Most of all, nismology "With that said, there's no reason to abandon suspension work on the maxima. Make it as good as it can be."

97maximaman

So with that said, and i do apologize for my ignorance, with what i have planned, is there anything better. What brands would you guys recommend for springs, keep in mind im still using gr-2's? Just not enough money to upgrade, especially not on an 11 year old car. I think RSB and possibly SFC are self explanatory, and easy enough. Are LTB's really going to add anything, i mean i've heard its the equivelant of a strut bar?
Eibach's - 235
RSB- ~150
So i still have say 250 for 1 more thing. Whats more worth the money, LTB or SFC?

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Koni Yellows
Eibachs
SFCs

Don't cheap out, as it will end up costing more in the long-run. Do it right the first time.

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

I did? I mean...it should be pretty obvious.
A few factors:
1. FWD vs. RWD always requrires different suspension setups to accomodate the drivetrain
2. The maxima is a bigger car than a 3-series BMW, generally speaking. Better to compare it to an older model 5-series in terms of size, IMO (though I don't knonw if the actual measurements support this)
3. The chassis is really the biggest limiting factor. Japanese "performance sedans" typically have soft chassis and stiff springs, wheras european cars typically have very stiff chassis with softer springs and stiffer struts.

I disagree about the beam suspension being a limiter. IMO it is actually a BETTER rear suspension on smooth roads than an IRS because it allows the tires to stay flatter on the road. On rough pavement, it's another story. Also the fact that you can't adjust camber/caster/toe with the beam without bending it is a limiting factor to fine-tuning, clearly.

I agree with your three points, but...


My 5th gen will run circles around a base-level stock E36, sorry. Granted we're comparing heavily modified with stock, but my tires ALONE will hold a corner better than stock E46 tires. There are alot of aspects to "handling" and frankly I find it ignorant when people say "a maxima will NEVER handle like a BMW." My good buddy has an E46 330xi (bone stock) and he can't even come close to hanging with me on a highway exit/entrace loop (and he is a very good autocrosser. Frankly, my wife's Mazda3 or her old 2000 Jetta both outhandle his 330xi....

That and I'll outhandle most 5-series and 7-series from about the same time period of my maxima (2000).

Not all BMWs are M3's......and not all BMWs are all that spectacular in handling.

The moral of this story: There are Honda Civics out there that will outhandle Porsches. It's just a matter of how you set them up and what your definition of "handling" is...

no SFCs on your noodle-framed 3rd gen

see what I posted above.....

true...a VQ35 Maxima will whoop quite a few BMWs on the highway or from a dig....

That's because "BMW Jock-Rider" comes in a close third place only to "G35 Jock-Rider" and "Skyline GT-R Jock-Rider" here on maxima.org

Depends on what you want. LTB is more about tightening up your steering response and balancing out oversteer created by an RSB. And it also calms down the front end over bumpy pavement. It's 10x as effective as a strut bar.

SFCs primarily reduce midbody flex on our long=wheelbase cars - especially for 4th gens which have weaker chassis than 5th gens. They don't help the car's hndling per se, but they allow the suspension (springs, struts, bushings, etc) to do their work the way they're supposed to. They also considerably improve ride quality on all types of roads.

Go with Nick...he has one of the best set-up 4th gen chassis out there IMO. I would add a few things:

1. RSB - I find a RSB to be a huge improvement in killing the terminal understeer on a stock maxima
2. Poly bushings...whereever you can put them. Individually they don't make a huge difference, but altogether they really tighten things up and improve steering/suspension response.
3. TIRES TIRES WHEELS TIRES. Everyone always forgets what a HUGE role wheels and tires play in "handling." Get a wider wheel with a lower offset (to push the track wider and improve stability). Get a tire with a stiffer sidewall and sticky tread compound. Tires and wheels can make a MONSTER difference in how your car handles.

Your stock 6.5" or 7" wide rims and crappy tires just won't cut it, no matter what suspension you have...

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

btw, I have a feeling this thread is going to go a bad direction soon (in part thanks to my responses).

They guy's question is basically "how do I make the maxima handle as well as it possibly can." The comparison to "a BMW" is irrelevant as it is apples and oranges.

OP, do some research on the 4th gen forum and see what setups the 4th gens who autocross are running (and 5th gens for that matter), and you'll have an idea of what you need.

I personally think I have one of the best suspension/chassis setups here on the org for 5th gens running non-coilover suspensions (and I've tried alot of them)....feel free to follow my "lead" if you care to...

DrunkieTheBear

iTrader: (17)

I agree with Irish (of course I always do, but I have spent many nights going back through alot of old posts where he asked alot of good questions and seem to have alot of good answers as well) about the fact that a heavily modified suspension maxima can definetly put a stock BMW in its place, even one with a few light mods too. I have everything that I could think of doing with my suspension and then some and I'm not talk about my tire width (lately I've determined that its a bit of a hindering factor in my handling). There is alot to be done to our cars if you just put your mind to it and you have some good ol fashion enginuity. Take a look at some of the guys around here and for that matter venture onto some other car forums that have the same kind of layout (FWD, Front engine) and see what kind of things they are setting their cars up with. You be surprised what you can do, especially if you become really good friends with a shop owner who lets you use his welding equipment.

97maximaman

Very informative post irish. Kinda cleared up the whole BMW versus Nissan thing there. And yeh i wasnt exactly trying to ask how to make the car handle like a beamer, more of how to make it handle as best possible within this price limit. I'll look at some of your setups and make a decission. For now im off to doin more sound deadening, so later folks.

i30krab

iTrader: (1)

I agree with you. I'm sure I also have one of the best suspension setups on the org but on the straight away I still get torque steer under power and I have to be careful to hold the steering wheel very tight.
Going around curves is different. I can fly around curves and the car stays planted.

My suspension includes:
-full JIC Magic FLT-A2 Coilovers.
-electro mechanical steering rack with separate control for steering pressure.
-Volk LE37T Wheels 17"x 7.5 16.5 lbs
-Dunlop 225-45-17 9000 tires
-Brembo front big brake kit and matching rear cross drilled rear rotors
- tracton bars
-stillen Triangulated front strut tower bar
-Blehnco stage 2 Lower Tie Bar rods
-Courtesy Nissan rear strut tower bar
-Addco rear anti roll bar
-H & R rear 25 mm wheel spacers
-Energy Suspension bushings for front suspension and motor mounts and
rear trailing arms
-Roll bar attached to chassis at 8 points

With all these mods my car should handle well!

-

MorpheusZero

iTrader: (10)

Two things you NEED to add to that list:

Wider wheels and tires. With 450whp on any car, let alone the Maxima, you are going to want at least 255/40s to squeeze every bit of traction and heat resistance out of your car. That requires 17x9s as well.

SFCs. I can't stress this enough, SFCs make your car feel completely different and predictable. SFCs DO bring your car closer to feeling like a BMW.

My buddy has an E39 540i sport, and that thing corners significantly flatter than my car yet rides significantly more pleasant as well. Over rough pavement the suspension is still stiff, but it's completely silent, and the chassis is never excited into oscillations, and you can feel the suspension working more and the chassis not budging. This is because of BMW's chassis design awesome sauce. Give that thing a 4th gen chassis and keep everything else equal, I guarantee it will ride like crap, "crashing" over every undulation and flexing out the wazoo whenever you ask it to turn fast.

That's how a stock 4th gen is, especially when you throw stiffer suspension, an RSB and poly bushings at it. The SFCs transform the A32 in the most subtle way that most passengers and too many drivers actually won't notice or won't be able to put their fingers on, but if you're a car enthusiast you will pick up on it immediately. They just tighten the car up.

i30krab

iTrader: (1)

Very good points but I've spent enough on this car, especially for wheels and tires.

I do think the roll bar acts like a SFC in a way.

DrunkieTheBear

iTrader: (17)

If he's got 25 mm spacers he should fit 17 x 10 with 275 tires on that car, he has the room

97maximaman

So if i've got this right, a higher offset puts the wheels further out giving the car a wider stance....therefore better handling? So in that case whats the highest offset i could use on an 18x8 wheel. Most places im looking to buy these wheels say a maxima should use a 40mm offset. I was planning like 225/40/18 tires, but on eibachs wasnt sure if i should worry bout rubbin.

MorpheusZero

iTrader: (10)

A lower offset pushes the wheels further out. Spacers add negative offset. Yes, a lower offset will increase the track and give your car a slightly more planted feel but most people prefer lower offsets so as to keep their wheel flush with the fender (as opposed to the "sunk-in" look) to look more aggressive.

You generally do not want to go too low on the offset (under +30 or so for 8" wide rims) or the wheels will actually stick out of the wheel wells and it'll just look bad.

Keep in mind, lower offsets also increase scrub radius (increasing steering effort and feedback) and add more stress on the wheel bearing.

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Yes and no, it really depends on where it's attached. Got pics?

A 4th gen without SFCs isn't complete, and will never be able to take advantage of the other suspension mods you put on the car. SFCs were the first mod I did to my car, and I'm very happy I did that.

I think what the OP was talking about in his first post was more of the BMW steering feel, and not overall grip. No matter what you do to a Maxima, it will never have the steering feel/response of a BMW. Maybe my non-SE steering rack is holding me back a bit, but I just don't see that bringing the steering feel up to BMW levels. That's the one thing that I hate about my car. Sure, it's a lot better than when I bought it, but the dead steering just kills the fun.

Now I'm wondering what it would be like to borrow someone's RSB locally and run around with it for a while to see how it would affect my car's balance....

i30krab

iTrader: (1)

I have 25mm spacers on the rear wheels only and the tires fit flush with the fenders.

I could add 5 mm spacers to the front, maybe I will since I have them sitting on the shelf.
Size Offset
Weight in lbs. Hole P.C.D.

[quote]
SilMax00 If he's got 25 mm spacers he should fit 17 x 10 with 275 tires on that car, he has the room.

I'd have to raise the car another inch to fit this size especially for the front.
As I said previously buying new wheels and tires is too expensive.

Just look at these current list prices.
The Volk Racing TE37 wheels are a one piece forged construction

These are per wheel

size offset bolt pattern price/wheel
20 X 8.5 +43 5 114.3 $1,400.00
20 X 9.5 +25, +45 5 114.3 $1,450.00
20 X 10.5 +25, +45 5 114.3 $1,500.00
20 X 11.0 +25 5 114.3 $1,525.00
19 X 8.0 +29 +35 +43 +48 5 114.3 $785.00
19 X 8.5 +22,+29, +30, +35, +36, +43, +44 ~20.17 5 114.3 $795.00
19 x 9.5 +5, +12, +22, +34, +35, +36, +43, +44, +45 ~20.72 - 21.05 5 114.3 $815.00
19 x 10.5 +12, +22, +35, +38,+42 5 114.3 $835.00
18 x 10.5 +15, +22 19.40/ - 5 114.3 $780.00
18 x 9.5 +12, +22, +35, +40 18.65/ - /18.23/18.10 5 114.3 $760.00
18 x 9.0 +40 17.70 5 114.3 $750.00
18 x 8.5 +22, +30, +40, +50 - /17.35/17.11/17.09 5 114.3 $740.00
18 x 8.0 +5, +20, +30 ~18.08 6 139.7 $730.00
18 x 7.5 +40 16.62 4 100 $720.00
+40 16.98 4 114.3
+48 16.31 5 100
+30, +40, +48 - /16.20/16.64 5 114.3
17 x 10.0 +18 17.97 5 114.3 $710.00
17 x 9.5 +12, +28, +35, +40 17.53/16.87/17.02/17.15 5 114.3 $700.00
17 x 9.0 +0, +15, +22, +28, +40 16.98/17.28/16.98/16.87/16.75 5 114.3 $700.00
17 x 8 .5 +30, +40, +50 16.40/16.09/15.65 5 114.3 $680.00
+50 15.65 5 100
17 x 8.0 +38, +44 ~16.53 5 100 $670.00 +33, +38 16.53/16.31 5 114.3
17 x 7.5 +40 4 108 $660.00
+40 15.43 4 100
+40 15.43 4 114.3
+48 15.34 5 100
+30, +40, +48 15.78/14.99/14.88 5 114.3
16 x 8.5 +30 13.67 5 114.3 Discontinued
16 x 8.0 +42 12.41 4 100 $570.00
+30, +38 13.01/13.01 5 114.3
+38, +42 13.01/13.05 4 114.3
16 x 7.5 +30, +42 13.01/12.79 5 114.3 Discontinued
+46 12.13 5 100
16 x 7.0 +33, +42 ~11.79-12.37 4 100/114.3 $580.00
+33, +46 ~11.40-11.95 5 100
+33, +42 5 114.3
15 x 8.0 +15 12.02 4 114.3 $510.00
15 x 7.5 +43 11.13 4 100 $490.00
15 x 7.0 +35, +43 9.92/9.81 5 114.3 $480.00
+0,+15, +43 11.90/11.38/9.94 4 114.3
+35, +43 9.70/9.94 4 100
15 x 6.5 +39, +45 10.05/9.30 5 114.3 $470.00
+39 9.88 4 114.3
+45 8.86 5 100
+28, +35, +39, +45 9.83/9.24/8.93/8.82 4 100
15 x 6.0 +45 4/5 114.3 $460.00
+37, +45 9.26/8.16 4 100
15 x 5.5 +35, +45 4 100/114.3 $450.00
14 x 7.0 +0 9.37 4 114.3 $460.00
14 x 6.5 +15 ~8.60 4 100 $450.00
+0 8.93 4 114.3
14 x 6.0 +38 ~8.49 - 9.66 4 100/114.3 $420.00
14 x 5.5 +35, +45 8.25/8.33 4 100 $420.00
14 x 5.0 +35, +45 8.05/8.38 4 100/114.3 $400.00
+45 ~8.38 4 110
13 x 6.0 +25, +32, +38 7.94/8.05/8.05 4 100 $420.00
13 x 5.5 +35 7.72 4 100 $400.00
13 x 5.0 +35, +45 7.39/7.43 4 100 $390.00
+45 ~7.28 4 110/114.3

MorpheusZero

iTrader: (10)

You've already got LE37s, are you saying you would still keep those if you got TE37s?

7.5" is just too damn narrow for an A32.

MorpheusZero

iTrader: (10)

Roll bar? If you've got a full cage, forget SFCs. But you're talking about the sway bar, which is completely separate in function from SFCs.

You can get SFCs for $500 or so including installation. Considering what you have done to the car already, I'd say it's well worth it.

i30krab

iTrader: (1)

This also extends forward at seat level to the front. Its welded and bolted down in 8 places

i30krab

iTrader: (1)

Yes I do have Volk LE37T wheels 17" x7.5" wheels and I'm not buying new ones.

irish44j

iTrader: (38)

forgive me if I'm not crying a river over your torquesteer

Those of us with 202whp/201wtq don't have that problem

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

When did you re-dyno? I still got you beat by 3 whp

If you're l33t enough to buy one set of Volks, I'm sure you're l33t enough to buy another properly sized set of them Why did you choose the size you have now?

EDIT: I would just like to point out that my cheap Enkeis weigh less than one pound more than your l33t Volks.

i30krab

iTrader: (1)

Point well taken! I'm so use to driving my car I really didn't remember there wasn't much or any torque steer when the car was first modified with much less horsepower. I remember at my first dyno the # was 150FWHP, I forget the torque #s

i30krab

iTrader: (1)

Originally the car was so dropped I didn't have room to turn the front wheels with larger rims. I think the rims are 5 years old. Since then I raised the car more than 2" because I got tired of bottoming out and now I have the room but not the desire..

i30krab

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=95maxrider;6188347]When did you re-dyno? I still got you beat by 3 whp



If you're l33t enough to buy one set of Volks, I'm sure you're l33t enough to buy another properly sized set of them Why did you choose the size you have now?

EDIT: I would just like to point out that my cheap Enkeis weigh less than one pound more than your l33t Volks. [/QUOTE]What size, model, and weight enkei rims?

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

17x8 Enkei RPM2 17.6 pounds
I like them


I should add that I've always loved LE37Ts, but could never justify the cost.

i30krab

iTrader: (1)

95maxrider
quote
"17x8 Enkei RPM2 17.6 pounds
I like them"

They're a great looking wheel but I wouldn't want to clean them, too many spokes!

95maxrider

iTrader: (32)

Yeah, I can spend an hour cleaning them if I want to. Not real fun.

Norm Peterson

Less lateral load transfer I'll give you, which is a good thing. However, you're also decreasing all the motion ratios (aka increasing the leverage on the springs, struts, and sta-bars), so the wheel rates will drop slightly. Translation: expect the car to roll slightly more in any given cornering situation, and with less damping. That tends to result in slightly less favorable camber and less efficient grip (this is primarily a front tire concern and assumes that you've reset the alignment). These are all relatively small effects, and while you *may* make a small overall gain as far as the measured performance numbers are concerned, it won't be by as much as the appearance suggests (and the other issues such as scrub are still there).


Norm

d00df00d

iTrader: (4)

This is a topic of interest for me. I thought my Maxima handled like a beast with coilovers and a nice set of tires. I could have an arm hanging out the window and one hand on the wheel while chasing my brother's then-stock Integra around an onramp while he squealed tires and damn near lifted a wheel just trying to stay in front of me.

Then I borrowed my friend's E36 M3 for a week and watched it blow my Maxima into the weeds on snow tires.

There's a lot behind that and I agree that it doesn't really all have to be discussed. The point is that it's a HUGE waste of time and money to try to make your car do something it wasn't designed to do, just to try to compete with a car that does that thing better than almost everyone. Yes, modding is fun, and putting the hurt on people who think you're driving Mom's grocery getter can be a lot of fun. If you're going to mod, mod for that reason.

If you want to mod your Max, my advice mirrors what's been said: Koni dampers, Eibach springs, and every last shred of chassis stiffening you can find. Seriously. Short of generic eBay crap, every time you come across something that strengthens your car's structure, get it. Polyurethane bushings are also pretty much a necessity. Lastly, stay away from heavy rims. Don't get 18"s unless you're shelling out SERIOUS coin for forged lightweight ones. You want your wheels to move with the suspension, so make them as light as you can.