kcidmil

I'm beginning my fun journey of building up my Max.

I'm boring out to 88mm, with 10-1 compression. I'm looking at getting JWT stage 1 cams, but the stage 2 caught my eye. They claim it has a slight lope when at idle.

Anyone have any experience with the JWT cams?

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

Any reason you aren't going with a higher CR? If you're going to spend the $$ to build the thing up, at least get what you can out of it and don't sell yourself short on the CR.

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

What he said. either do it right and go 11:1 minimum with big cams and oversized valves, or go low compression and turbo it. Also get JWT's valve springs and retainers so you can safely rev to 8000rpm and take advantage of the extra air going through the engine.

If you want to do high comrpession, go to 11:1 or so (pistons will cost the same no matter what CR you choose since they're be custom either way at 88mm).

You also might as well bore it out even more for the extra displacement. the wall thickness on the block is the same on the 3.0 as on the 3.3, so you can bore it out to the stock bore on the VG33 and still have plenty of meat left.

Ferrea makes 1mm oversize valves for the VG30E and are fairly inexpensive, so you might as well port the heads and up the valve size for some better breathing. with all of those and the JWT stage 2 cams, you're not looking at a ton more money, but you'll see a huge increase in power.

Also be sure to replace the stock rod bolts with ARP. They are one of the big weaknesses on the stock engine. I would highly suggest picking up a set of stock VG30DE or VE rods for more strength as well. the wrist pins are larger on them than on the VG30E, but since you're doing custom pistons, it won't be a problem.

kcidmil

Hmmm

well the package I found only offers 8.5:1, 9:1, 10:1. This is all the stuff they offered in the kit

Complete Gasket Set
Copper Performance Head Gasket
ROSS/Wiseco Performance Pistons
(87, 87.5, 88mm) and
(8.5-1, 9-1, 10-1 comp)
Performance Rings
Performance Wrist Pins
TOGA HP Main Bearings
TOGA HP Rod Bearings

They also offer a HV oil pump, but after looking at what room there was for oil pan expansion. I decided against it.

I want to gain some decent power, and the stage 2 sounds nice. I was thinking of getting the rods from JWT, they require a bigger wrist pin, so I figured more options would be available.

I've been searching around the internet for some time, and had no idea about the larger valves. I'm going all motor, really don't feel like messing with the piping for a turbo. Plus I will be using it for street driving as well.

So I guess the biggest question is how far do I want to go with it. It will be used every once in a while to go crusing with the family. And the wife drives it occasionaly. I get yelled at for even doing a burn out. So it has to be driveable for her. But I'd like to have power to spare. I guess it would help to list what mods I have planned.

Complete tranny rebuild, maybe even have new 5th gears fabricated to lower the RPMs when cruising. As 1st-4th is wide enough to run the power to over 100 mph.

WSP Y-pipe with cat
Unorthadox UDP, and Flywheel
Exedy stage 1 clutch
(Possible) JWT ECU, MAF, Injector combo
Port and Polish

The weakest link will be the clutch and drivetrain. So I don't want to overpower those too much. Last thing I feel like doing is replacing CV axles every other month.

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

the weakest link you have is actually the transmission, not the clutch. put an ACT or Exedy stage I in it and you'll have enough clutch to shatter tranny gears.

As for what you've got planned, anything you do N/A for the most part will still allow it to be daily driveable. the stage 2 cams will make the idle a bit lumpy and you'll lose a bit of vacuum at low RPM, but otherwise you'll be okay for the most part. just raise the idle some and you'll be good to go.

the JWT rods they are talking about requiring larger wrist pins are because the rods from from a VG-DE. the crank and main bearings for all VGs are the same size, but the VG-E has a smaller wrist pin than the VE and the VG-DE series. so they just use one rod. most likely you can order the wisecos with the larger wrist pins and pick up a set of stock VE/VG-DE rods for your car for cheap. (I have two sets in the garage now, and I just gave away two more VG-DE engines that Ic an probably get another set out of. you're looking at under $100 for a set of used rods that will support upwards of 400crank HP.

then pick up some ARP ros bolts and you're good to go on the bottom end.

on the top end, you want to do as much port work and airflow work that your wallet can afford. the stage 2 cams and at MINIMUM port and polish the heads. you're looking at ~$1000 for the head work alonw, but it will be well worth it once you start trying to drive the thing.

and definitely fork over the money for the JWT ECU as well. either that or figure out how to tune it yourself. being N/A you shouldn't need any more injectors of MAF for a long while, but what you'll need to do is get the rest of the engine together and running.. let it break in, then have someone run a CONSULT system on it while you're on the dyno and log the MAF and injector duty cycles.. send all that info to JWT and have them program an ECU for you. since I have a JWT already, it's easy.. I just send them the RPM/power/ air-fuel/from the dyno as well as the CONSULT logs and a check for $100 and they analyze all the data and send me an ECU programmed for the best they can do without personally dynoing the car.

kcidmil

Well if I recall correctly, the bore size in the 3.3 is 91mm. So now the question is where can I have some 91mm 11:1 compression pistons made up.

Or would getting a 10:1 and shaving the head be easier?

Everything listed I can buy, or have done... I'm just trying to figure out the pistons at this point.

Also another good point to bring up. I run 91 in my Max. there is some 94 available, but it questionable.

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

you will be fine on 11:1 in the max with 91 octane.

Call JE, Ross, or Wiseco for pistons for it. they'll have to be custom made to go to 11:1, but you're looking at a price difference of about $400. a set of 'regular' pistons from them will be around $700 per set. I was quoted $1099 with rings for custom pistons when I was looking at 89mm pistons for my VE.

Nismo87SE

I'd say your best bet if you going to do that kind of work is starting with a VG33E. You have more potential to make better power. Another thing is when you do those mods you will need to design some headers that have an excellent 3in collector. Then you might want to see if its possible to fabricate some kind of adapter to use a better intake manifold from a VG30DET (yes the single turbo DE) or one from a VQ.

After your motor is built and broken in you might want to drive to jwt and have them tune it or just go with an aftermarket EMS. I'm sure a VG33 with the right IM and header/exhaust at 11:1cr should be able to make 200whp easy.

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

Meh.. the factory IM is good for plenty of power given the right setup. you may want to just use a Z31 NA or a 2nd gen manifold. bigger single port TB that should allow more air, but otherwise the stock VG manifold isn't too bad. I've seen people put down well over 200whp N/A with it.

kcidmil

Alright, I've sent off for a few places on prices for a 91mm w/ 11:1. Would getting the JWT 50lbs injectors be worth it as well? Or just stick with stock.

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

depends on how much power you're going to be putting out and how much money you want to spend (of course, how much power you're going to put out is in direct relation to that $$ amount)

the stock injectors are good for somewhere around 220wheel hp without goign sky high with fuel pressure. any more than that and you're going to need bigger injectors. with them, you're basically just goign to need to get the engine running on your stock injectors and see where you are. until you have an idea of what power you're putting down and what the limitations of the rest fo the engine are, you can't really know on injectors.

kcidmil

kool kool... appreciate the help. I can rebuild engines, I have yet to modify internals.

Those are about all the questions I have for now till I run into something. I unfourtantely have to wait for the $$$. But I'd rather have a plan ready, and get all the bases covered, before starting it and running into something that'll have me going

I should be pulling my motor this weekend finaly, that way i can tear it down and make sure all needed internals are in good shape.

kcidmil

Just thought of another question. Would a higher powered Ignition System be in order?

and if so, what is compatible?

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

by that point, yes. since the VG runs a regular distributor, any 'regular' MSD ignition system that works a distributor type V6 will be fine.

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

Supposedly if you use the VG33 block, you can bore it out to 93mm which is the same bore as the VQ30. That will give you 3383cc to start with. The stock bore on the VQ33 is 91.5mm and it's 3275cc.

kcidmil

Thanks, I've already looked into that. I don't have the money, or the time to fiddle around with dumping a VG33 block. If I wanted to up my block size, I minus well go ALL OUT, and start work on dropping a 3.5L in there.

I'm not looking for the most outrageous power I can dump in there. I'm looking for something that I can up the power for what I already have lying around.

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

You dont have the money, and you want to use what is lying around. Yet you talk about spending money on overpriced parts from JWT, pistons and cams? lol
So which is it?

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

The VG30 and VG33 block are both the same block from what I've been told. boring at stock VG30 block to 93mm will result in the same wall thickness of the VG33.

I'm now thinking I should have bored my block to 91mm and had the custom 11:1 pistons made for it....

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

In that case, buy a junkyard engine, turbo it on the cheap, and call it a day. you'll come out MUCH cheaper than a high HP NA build.

(I've spent about $4500 on my VE and it's only 20-30hp over stock!!)

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

That isn't the norm for Nissan and it certainly isn't what they did in the case forany of the VQ blocks. If you can confirm that info on the cylinder wall thickness then I would call that a more feasible solution. Just use the 91.5mm VG33 cast pistons in the old VQ30. There is no real need to waste the money on forged pistons for a low power NA engine.

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

I've got Z31 turbo manifolds siting in my garage that I paid all of $35 for. I would be more than happy to get rid of them for my cost + shipping.

kcidmil

I just got my qoute back. $650 for a complete set of 91mm, 11:1 CR, with rings. Wrist pin machined to 22mm

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

BASTARD!!


That was going to cost me $1100 from JE.
who's making those pistons?

Matt, the wall thickness statements were those I gleaned from a page at Granny's Speed Shop, who do RX-7 toys.. http://members.tripod.com/~grannys/2N6VG30.html

kcidmil

www.importperformanceparts.net Same place I found the engine kit for $1200.

Complete Gasket Set
Copper Performance Head Gasket
ROSS/Wiseco Performance Pistons
(87, 87.5, 88mm) and
(8.5-1, 9-1, 10-1 comp)
Performance Rings
Performance Wrist Pins
TOGA HP Main Bearings
TOGA HP Rod Bearings

you can also add a HV oil pump, and Eagle rods if you want... more $$$ though.

If you're looking for VE stuff

VE30DE (92-94)
VQ30DE (95-99)

Complete Gasket Set
Copper Performance Head Gasket
ROSS/Wiseco Forged Performance Pistons
(93, 94mm bore) and
(9-1, 10-1, 10.5-1 comp ratio)
Performance Rings
Performance Wrist Pins
TOGA HP Main Bearings
TOGA HP Rod Bearings
Thrust Washers (95-99 only)
Freeze Plugs

If you go looking for them. Click on Nissan on the left column, Engine kits on the list, HP kits (first selection) #13 for the VG30E, #19 for VE30DE

kcidmil

But where's the fun in that?

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

This is where you really have to watch things.
stock bore on a VE is 87mm. same as a VG. (it uses most of the internals from a VG30DE). their listings are incorrect.

and you can only get the larger pistons from places like Ross and Wiseco in the turbo version. 10.5 or 11:1 NA versions don't exist past 87.5mm unless you want to go custom and then it'll cost you $1100 a set.
(I spoke with Ross, Wiseco, JE, and CP directly about these engines when I was building mine. no such thing as a 10.5:1 VE/VG30DE piston above 87.5mm unless I want to go custom.

kcidmil

I emailed them for the prices on custom pistons, not anything they had in stock. http://www.importperformanceparts.ne...stomparts.html I'm calling the guy tomorrow to find out exactly what material they machine for the pistons. I know JE forges all of theirs, so there is more strength there.

I asked for specifically 91mm, 11:1 CR, and wrist pin size of the VG30DE rods. Telling them only I wanted the previous info, and it was going into a VG30E with DE rods.

If you look through the engine listing, they do not have the VG33 listed at all.

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

Why not just use the OE 93mm VH pistons and call it a day. More power for less money. I just don't see why you would want to spend the money on forged pistons for a low power NA engine.

kcidmil

Why bother with building up a car period... hell, why even bother owning one? It just gets old, rusts, breaks down, uses money for gas and maintenance. Insurance companies screw you over for the one possible chance you'll wreck. And then if you barely use it because of a natural disaster, or someone hit and running you, they take and charge even more money.

If you get a truck, "friends" want help moving. Or other friends will defile it on a rescue trip from the bar.

So you know what... I must be for wanting to own it in the first place. So why don't I be really insane and build up a motor I want to build?

kcidmil

I JUST received good news.

OH YEAH!!!!

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

You posted in this forum, which means you want feedback for your ideas. I gave you a cheaper and potentially more powerful alternative, and so did Matt93 who gave you an even better one. But yes, it is YOUR money. So have fun spending more of it just so you can tell all of your friends you have forged pistons.

If you don't want feedback from other people don't post. Otherwise be prepared to be told things you don't always want to hear.


When I first posted I had in mind the poor b@stard who came into the shop two weekends ago with his B18C5 powered Civic hatch. He made every mistake in the book, spent who knows how much money on 'cool' parts (heavily modified, forged pistons, headwork, ITBs etc.) thinking he would make a lot of power. Well because he chose obviuosly to listen to the wrong people and probably ignored some good advice along the way, his mutli-thousand dollar project put down less power on our dyno than a slightly modified B18C5 ITR would have. And did we tell the guy what we really thought? No. Because by then it was already too late and we didn't want to get involved in the hassle. But here I had an opportunity to help one of the following Maxima.org members from making all those same mistakes so I jumped on it. Take it for what it is.

kcidmil

Hmmm... let me see. What is more annoying. Someone who posts on a thread, asking about certain items, then supposedly not listening... or someone who doesn't even bother to READ the thread, and keeps bringing the same $hit up over and over.

Now... plz tell me where in that statement did I state I want a monster of a machine? Matt got it, he let the different block issue drop. Nor do I care about having the highest HP rating. I expect people to bring up different ideas, but I also would like them to extend the same courtesy I do in reading everything that is posted.

I respect Matt's opinion just about more than anyone else's opinion save a few. He might try to nudge in a certain direction, but knows when to let it go unless someone is making a major mistake. I'm just trying to squeeze what I can out of it for my pleasure. Who cares if I could never beat a 5th gen.

BTW... it may be my money... but in all actually, part of it yours. If you figure that one out, I applaud you.

Nismo87SE

It should be a fun project your starting. I'm thinking that the 11:1cr pistons would help the VG make good power. However you will need to get some headers made and probably a custom intake manifold.

Alex_V

What about piston weight of the custom pistons? will that limit revs? Your going to have the rotating assembly balanced right?

~Alex

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

custom pistons are usually lower than the factory stuff. I dunno what the factory ones weigh, but here's what my 10.5:1 JEs weigh:

kcidmil

Well I finally pulled the motor yesterday and got it on my stand. I'm working on pulling all the unecessary stuff off. Though I do have one question.

Is it normal for the right bank (rear) to get hotter than the left? My valve train and such is discolored to a orangish brown, like the oil had baked into it. I'll have pics later today.

Alex_V

I would say yes, because the front bank has the fans blowing on it but thats just a guess.

~Alex

UK-nissan

You need the pathfinder second thermostat mod to keep the head temps down.

Mike

UK-nissan

Its also my understanding that you only go to forged pistons if your power goals are so high that cast pistons wont stay together.
You have blowby and emmisions issues when cold, rattles like **** for the first 1/2 hour till its fully warm, lots more bore wear till its fully warm too.

mike

nismology

iTrader: (8)

Unless you get forged pistons with high silicone content so it doesn't expand as much. You won't have to run those excessive piston-to-cylinder wall clearances.