friendhasmax has a very good point, and knows his stuff. I've seen some of his installs. I don't know as much as him, but enough to know he's just about on the ball. I get the same thing, I'm an ME student and people give me the same garbage. Theory is where everything comes from. Know the theory, you'll know how to CORRECTLY apply the technology.

 

well stated.

 

i am well beyond circuits one buddy. hands on knowledge doesn't tell me you know the theory behind how/why stuff works. i know how a cap functions and why it fucntions as it does. so why so much hate towards me? any engineering student or engineer would aggree with what i have said.

 

ownage

 

Isn't this like the third or fourth time we have argued about this exact point...Maybe the moderator should just immediately lock any capacitor related posts.

friendhasmax is right...not real diplomatic...but right.

 

thank you Dan. you are right though, i wasn't very diplomatic about it. i'm a member of IEEE and as such i should be more professional, but damn do some people **** me off in here.

anyone up for a be all and end all to capacitor threads? i will write up all about caps. how they work, why they work, and any mis-conceptions about them.

 

so to all AUDIO GENISIS! whats the solution than to mine and others problems of dimming lights and other power problems? i have a perfectly good battery. and since a CAP doesnt seem to be the answer to those problems, whats the solution? im running around 1800 watts @ RMS, i have a major problem with dimming. oh and i have a brand new alt. too. soooo whats the answer?

oh, and friendhasmax, whats the EXACT ENGINEER DEFINITION OF A CAPACITOR??? man you seem like an A**HOLE

 

i may be an *******, but my lights don't dim.

 

First thing to do is upgrade the wires from the bat to alt, bat to ground, and engine to ground, 4 gauge should be sufficient and leave the factory wires in place.

Second make sure your amps are not clipping

If that doesn't solve it I would add a Battcap 400. Should be fine for 1800W and way more effective than a standard cap.

If the above doesn't fix the problem, or at least 90% of it, something else is wrong with your electrical system.

 

u can install small capacitors near ur lights and other items that are dimming, this will eliminate the dimming

 

yep, the batcap 400 is very very nice. some people just hate hearing "get a high output alternator." for some odd reason they would rather spend hundreds of dollars on the band-aids to try and fix the problem. ultimately, the alternator is not supplying enough current at the nominal voltage. voltage drops significantly when the alternator cannot output anymore current. blah

 

i said that months ago, but no one listened.

 

It's obvious to everyone else, even your supporters, but I'll say it again anyway; YOU'RE a ******** who thinks that because you READ it in a book now all of a sudden what a bunch of us who have been USING and INSTALLING and what you suddenly had an epiphany about is suddenly new rocket science. It's not. It's been around since you were probably splitting hairs with other 3 yr olds in a playground somewhere.

YOU don't know why I refered to magnetism when you used "electric field"? Gee, I guess YOU may wanna go back and read some more "engineering" books then, huh? Just to enlighten you a little, here's the definition of an "electric field" as found in WEBSTERS DICTIONARY (a highly technical and "engineering" type book. YOU should try using it sometime.):


-------------------------
Main Entry: electric field
Function: noun
: a region associated with a distribution of electric charge or a varying MAGNETIC field in which forces due to that charge or field act upon other electric charges
---------------------------------

Guess I was WAYY off on that one too huh? You may wanna go argue that with Mr. WEBSTER then.

BTW, you are exactly correct about saying that inductors store their energy in a magnetic field. That's all an inductor is. A coil that is magnetized to transfer energy. The bigger the coil, the more energy. Cool. Except for one thing: A capacitor is NOT and inductor. This is why I asked you HOW a capacitor stored it's energy in an "electric" or "magnetic" field. Your new explanation finally gets it right, but it has nothing to do with inductors.

The reason why I told you to use an oscilloscope was to show you how the current/voltage coming OUT of an alternator is FAR from "steady" as you said it was. It fluctuates all the time. So therefore, your example of how an electrical system was "lacking" because of God knows what, makes no sense. What is it "lacking"? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I was asking you to clarify gibberish and double talk. That's far from "not understanding" as you put it.

You're also correct in that I messed up in describing a caps connection in reference to the battery. It IS in fact NOT "in-line" as I put it. I was wrong due to my haste. You're right, it wouldn't conduct anything if "in-line". Since it's parallel it CAN'T be "in-line" too. My mistake.

Let's look at it very simplistically:

Battery:
1. makes energy
2. stores energy
3. flows from - to +
4. has 2 terminals, a + and a -
5. has plates inside usually corresponding to + and -
6. discharges and recharges in minutes
7. has a set number of "cycles" before plates/media has to be replaced
(and obviously much more too, if we wanna microdisect it)

Capacitor:
1. stores energy
2. flows from - to +
3. has 2 terminals, a + and a -
4. has plates inside, a + and a -
5. discharges and recharges ultra fast, in milliseconds.
6. has a useful life of many "cycles".
(and obviously much more too, if we wanna microdisect it too)

As anyone can clearly see, a battery and a capacitor have NOTHING-A-LIKE.

My point since the beginning has been very simple, so the original poster can more easily understand it (until Mr. Einstein came in trying to microdisect everything to show everybody how good he can read).

A capacitor can be looked at as KIND OF LIKE a battery in that it stores energy until the amp(s) need it during demanding times. It then discharges it's energy, measured in farads, much more quicker than a conventional car battery. It also recovers, i.e. recharges, much more quicker than a conventional battery too. It should only be used when a system demands much more than is already available from a car's stock electrical system in order to keep a steady stream of voltage to high demanding amps. 1000 watts is the usual threashold for beginning to look at a capacitor as a solution to low voltage problems. Wiring and install should be the first things to be looked at as sources of possible solutions BEFORE contemplating a capacitor.

Mr. wannabe engineer wanna try and argue with that now too? Whatever. I've wasted way too much time trying to argue with a mag racer. If someone has a better or more SIMPLISTIC way to explain to someone that obviously doesn't KNOW much about caps, go for it. To try and over complicate the situation is simply someone trying to show their pecker is bigger. Stupid. This should have been a thread where caps were explained to newbies, not an engineering class where we discuss everything from magnetic fields to dielectrics. I guess that goes a real long ways to helping a newbie understand capacitors, huh? Yet you wonder why people snap at you??? Plenty of book smart, but not a lot of common sense. Learn to get some before you graduate. Common sense will go much further to help you get ahead in life than book smart will. But let me guess.....You'll try and microdisect and argue with me on that too. Genius.

 

Gee, I find that hard to believe judging by your over abundance of people skills....

 

Knowledge is great, but it will NEVER compare to application. Everyone that has a working brain CAN learn. NOT everyone that has a working brain can DO. Remember that.

Your statement sounds just like the millions of arm-chair quarterbacks and mag racers out there. They gobble up every magazine and book about cars and suddenly they THINK they know about cars. Give 'em a wrench and tell them to DO, and they can't figure out where to put a 10mm socket on a Maxima.

Same principle applies to school. While in school, students THINK they KNOW everything although they've NEVER applied that knowledge in real life.

Remember this: Not a single one of the TOP men/women in their field got there from READING a book. They got there by DOING, not READING. Remember that next time you think you know more than someone else simply because you read it in a magazine or a book. That person could very well have 10X more hands-on experience than you. The majority of real KNOWLEDGE comes from experience, not writing a school paper.

 

im glad you had the smarts to look up a definition of electric field. you don't know how to apply it though. a magnetic field is only present when there is a time-varying current (not the case in a capacitor used on a power supply).

look man, you were proved incorrect, and other people more knowledgable than you aggreed with me. just deal with it.

DONE WITH THIS.

 

I guess that by using your genius logic since other people ALSO agreed with me about YOUR attitude and personality.....I guess that would mean I was right there too?????

Again, if you don't have a better analogy to HELP explain what a capacitor is to a newbie......you're not contributing anything worthwile anyway. You're simply trying to prove your pecker is bigger.

 

yes, i do have an attitude. you were clearly wrong with your explanations, and it annoys me when people are wrong and don't accept it.

 

You had an attitude with me since the beginning and you don't KNOW anything about me. THAT annoys me.

Again, I don't see you proving how I was "wrong" in my analogy at all. You came out shooting off at the mouth about things you quoted from your sweet little "engineering" book. YOU were the one that started complicating things that should have remained SIMPLE. THAT young man IS the point. We weren't in a full on technical discussion about capacitors, although YOU turned it into one. I'll ask you yet again, how do you think THAT will help a newbie understand ANYTHING???? Once again, your lack of common sense prevails.

Again, YOU haven't PROVED jack to me except that you can read a book. Try and rebutt my analogy above where I compare in SIMPLE terms a battery and a capacitor. You're absolutely right, being just like a battery in more ways than not is NOTHING-A-LIKE. Right.

You must be skipping class or maybe too smart for your professors to have so much time to argue with me. Go and do something productive rather than continue to try and prove your manhood to me. Because honestly, I could care less.

 

shut the **** up already, the **** i was explaining was learned long ago, im not looking it up as i type.



by the way, comparing a cap to a battery does nothing but confuse people even more because they already think of it as a battery and threfore have many misconceptions about it.

a capacitor in a car stereo is nothing more than a paper weight, as MaximaDan stated. people do not need to waste money on them. they should just upgrade wiring and get a higher output alternator. i mean the alternator is the source of the dimming problems anyway, so why not start from the source of the problem?

amps take energy from the cap because the alternator is not supplying enough current for the application.

stressing the alternator, especially with the peak charging currents of a capacitor, will only shorten the life of the alternator by detsroying the output diodes and especially the sensitive voltage regulators in the alterntor.

that is what i meant by "lacking". in a properly designed automotive sound system, the voltage across a capacitor should never dip. the capcitor should only be there to stabilize voltage. if you don't understand capacitors as voltage regulators then just stop posting. the only good caps are good for are analog and digital circuits, not as stiffening power supplies.


as soon as a cap is discharged, it has to recharge in milliseconds. this demand in such a short time requires such a burst of current that is harmful to the semiconductor diodes as i stated earlier. the Thevenin equivalent resistance of the amp without the cap is much higher than that of the the reisitance with the cap as a stiffening supply used with an amp because its ESR is then in parallel with the amp therefore demaning more current, potentially damaging components in the alternator.

BLAH THERE IS YOUR EXPLANATION ON WHY CAPS ARE MORE HARMFUL THAN GOOD. JUST GET A HIGHER OUTPUT ALTERNATOR.

 

and also, i dont have just book smarts. i also design and BUILD various analog/digital circuits for classes, and as a hobby. plus i have installed numerous systems. Manny posted that he saw a lot of my work, he can tell ya anything u wanna know (plus i made a custom formica/plexi box for his max). not only am i an electrical engineering student, but im also a carpenter, and i am a few credits short of an accounting degree. anything else you want to know about me?

 

Wow!!! Yet another great assumption you're making without taking the time to think about it.

So, a capacitor does nothing to a car's stereo? Are you saying this because YOU don't have one or because it's something you read in your precious "engineering" book? A .5 farad cap is worthless, hell even a 1 farad cap is worthless, but how about an Alumapro 5 farad cap? Or maybe a bank of 1 to 1.5 caps together? You saying they add no voltage stabilization then too? Gee, I guess the fact that even you admit to that a cap sometimes helps with dimming issues really shows that it does NOTHING at all, huh? Maybe in your town they only sell placebo caps then.

A capacitor is a very simple and 1 function device. Nothing more, nothing less. It was designed to be charged and discharged thousands of times as fast as it's little heart is content. That's it. Forget electric fields and dielectrics, that's far too complicated for any new person to understand besides the fact that is has zero to do with function when it relates to car stereos. It should NOT be used to fix the dimming lights but it can help (band aid fix) because it prolongs the inevitable. If your lights dim, the source of the problem is somewhere else. You should get a cap as way to keep your amps seeing the same voltage all the time, even during big bass notes. It's far from totally useless, but it's also NOT a fantastic magic pill that makes your car sound stupendous all of a sudden from using it.

Let me ask you a question Mr. know it all, what is the car's alternator hooked up to? I mean, what is it DIRECTLY hooked up to?

Are you ignoring the fact that the car's alternator is hooked up NOT to the accessories of the car directly but to them THRU the car's battery? Therefore, if the car's battery has high resistance, which it does, then it only charges/discharges at a certain rate. Therefore, brain child, the amps will sometimes starve NOT simply because the alternator can't keep up, but because it's exceeding the car BATTERY's limitations? Ever think of that? If an amp pulled power directly from an alternator, which is not electronically designed to do BTW because of the UP and DOWN voltage output coming from everyone's alternator except for yours would damage the power supply side of the amp, it would definetly be a fry fest of one or the other rather quickly.

The cap has lower resistance and that is why it can charge and discharge faster than a conventional car battery. The amps draw power from that cap first rather than a slower conventional battery. Acting like a "reserve" of sorts.

That's it.

All this BS talk making it more difficult is laughable and childish. Show me where this thread was started asking the TECHNICAL MERITS or DEFINITIONS of a cap vs a battery. It doesn't.

 

Didn't I tell you in a previous post that I honestly could care less about the size of pecker? You're overly an*l about things and have a bad attitude towards someone that is trying to help. That's my issue with you.

Besides, didn't you say you were "through with this" a few posts ago? You're not as smart as you think you are if you keep letting lil ol me bait you into showing your A**, are you?

I already invited you to take this up with me in private and I'd be happy to tell you exactly what I think about your book smarts. You didn't take that offer. Instead you continue to try and keep arguing with me about something that's not even been the subject of this thread. You disagree with 1 measly word of what I said and suddenly its this big wiener contest. Obviously, you haven't taken advantage of your Sociology or Psych classes to learn how to show an opposing viewpoint w/o being a A** about it. Maybe you should spend a little more time studying that vs astromicrocosmicanalretentive physics. You'll learn one day that you know only a very minute fraction of what you WILL know once you get out of college and start putting all those theories to the test of application. Then again, they don't teach things like that in books, so YOU may never get that.

If I were a moderator on this board, I'd lock this thread. It's even more useless than some people think caps are......Ha! I even made a funny....

 

lmao. you make no sense at all. you just said that the amp is not directly connected to the alternator, but it goes through the battery first and as such the battery has a high resistance....so if that is true, then the cap wouldnt charge up very fast would it? duh. the alternator is hooked up to the battery by a parallel connection. have you ever unhooked your battery while your car is running? if you never did you would see that the car still runs and all accessories still work. so how is it that the high resistance of the battery has anything to do with this? you are WRONG yet again grasshopper.

so you are wrong. the amps do pull power directly from the alternator. look at ur own explanation. the cap would have to charge up slowly since it isnt connected to the alternator directly right? DUH! how ignorant can you be?

disconnect your battery while your stereo is on, watch what happens. your stereo and amps still work normally.

since when can an amps power supply not handle the output of an alternator?
you obviously know very little about power supply design.

on the power supply stage of an amplifier there are what is called filter capacitors. they STABILIZE the voltage level of the input. do you know why that is needed? i'll tell you. the alternator putputs AC and the diodes rectify that to a rough DC voltage. the battery of the car stabilizes this voltage so the accessories can work properly.

the amp does not rely on that fact and has its own stabilization circuit in the power supply stage, therefore it can be hooked up directly to an alternator.

BLAHHHHH!!!!!!

 

oh by the way, we put theory to use in 6 different labs in 4 years. without our lab work, you woundt have things to install. it isn't physicists that design your amps and such, it's engineers. keep that in mind. we do not just learn theory, we learn how to use it.

engineering: The application of scientific and mathematical principles to practical ends such as the design, manufacture, and operation of efficient and economical structures, machines, processes, and systems.

 

" its LIKE a battery...."

www.batcap.net

 

It's so funny how you guys are dragging this thing out. Let your engineering ego go. Maybe I should get my dad who is an electrical engineer that is a supervisor for souther company come and post some stuff. lol. God I remember how cocky some of the ****** were in my classes.

 

Many can use the info (not the flaming) in this thread useful and educational-
in 10+ yrs, a shytload of installs , a 3 RIP alternators ,I've found caps have been completly worthless to anything other than for short burps

 

Even for burps you will need way more than the average 1F cap.

I think there is a whole lot of good information in this thread, you just need to weed out the flaming.

What I think is important for people to get out of this is that the battery and cap(if installed) are both loads on your electrical system. The only time your battery supplies current is if the output voltage of the alt dips down to the battery voltage. So normally at anything over idle the battery is just a load that is recharging. That's why I find it really interesting how many people think installing a second battery is beneficial. Unless you run your system with the engine off a whole lot, your're basically just carrying around a lot of dead weight.

 

Lets settle it down a bit guys. Leave it a discussion, not an arguement,flame war or ****ing contest.

k?

 

**** this thread anyway. if you dont want to listen then don't. whatever.

DON, i called you earlier, check your voicemail