heres a rough drawing i did on paintbrush (hey no criticism now, lol) of how i plan to set up my car (1992 max with Bose)....as you can see on the rear deck im debating wether or not i should throw the sub up on the deck between my 6x9's or in the trunk where ill cut out that thick cardboard-like armrest backing; the front door speakers also and im debating over kick speakers...if i do decide to put in kicks what kinda speakers are good to put there? I have Pioneer strongly in preference right now but am willing to explore other brands, any suggestions? Id appreciate any comments, opinions, or suggestions on my layout, thanks.

 

if u cant read whats on that pic, im putting 6x9 pioneers on the rear deck with either the sub in between them or in the trunk right behind the armrest. If i do put the sub up on the deck i wonder if i can throw a speaker on the armrest backing. Then on the front doors will either be 4x6's or 4"s and possibly kick speakers and the deck probably the pioneer DEHP4300

 

Kicks are usally the best way to go if you want to build a good sound stage. Worth the money? YES. What speakers? A good set of componets(quart, focal,diamond,dynaudio,eclipse,etc.)

As for the sub thing. It's gonna depend on what sub you want and what setup you wanna do (free air, sealed, bp,ported) and loud or not loud.
Personally the only reason to have speakers in the rear is if you have people backthere that want them. And do you care if they want them?

 

lol guess not but my friend put a spkr in the armrest in his 91 SE, i was just roughly questioning the idea; what does it exactly mean by a "soundstage"? and also the different sub setups?

 

heres a few tips:

1) your front doors can only take 4" drivers
(from experiance the largest i got in there was a 6.5", but that required me to litterally cut out the entire opening of the speaker housing and completly remove the BOSE amp/wiring from the front door) took me about 45 min a door to install!! if your not big into installing stick with a 4" component system for better sound.

2) your rear deck can accept 6x9's (bottom mount) or if you have a leter model 3rd gen i believe you have oversized 6.5" speakers(6.75") cutting them out wont be that bad. Make sure you use a template and buy yourself x2 paris of tin snips(right angled/left angled for the round edges) believe me staright edge tin snips WILL NOT work!!

3) definitly cut through the cardboard opening to the trunk behind the armrest. This will alow for more bass to enter the cabin area.
-1st trace the opening with a pencil from the front side of the seat onto the vinal part
-2nd remove the cardboard panel from the trunk and cut out the opening about an inch or so larger than you traced(using a utility knife and straight edege) that will make the opening look alot nice from the inside.

4) have your sub firing twords the trunk (this again will give you the best bass out of your sub

hope this helps. Believe me i have done no joke 100 maxima systems over the years and i do it this way everytime for you 3rd gen guys and seems to do the trick

any other questions let me know

Anthony
MECP certified tech!

 

as for speakers:

depends if your running an amp to your highs or not and most importantly your budget!
i always reccomend Boston Acoustics. they make a Rally 4" component system for the front(can be powered by an amp of headunit)
and a nice set of Boston(3ways powered either way aain)6x9's for the rear.

Pioneer premier speakers are very nice, kenwoods are ok, clarion suks (stay away) Alpine is decent, JL are good(dont need alot of power), Boston is top of my list(rally or pro series) both have impressed me everytime i install them.

In my car right now im running Eclipse 6.5" components in the front and Pioneer Premiers 3way 6x9's(rear deck convertion)all powered by a kicker zx460 4channel amp(90x4). Right now though im in the process of buyin the new pioneer premier 930 cd headunit to top of the system till after the holidays-->6.5 flush mount TV and PS2, heheh

let me know what your willing to spend and what brands the store carries that your looking to buy from.

Anthony

 

soundstage is how it appears to you. Meaning if your at a concert your gonna hear the drums from the back the singer in the middle and say the horn section to the right just behind her. That would be the same thing that should be reproduced in a car. That's a soundstage and the main point of kickpanel mounted speakers.

Sub setup is just that how do you want the subs set up. Do you want max loudness, what tone, location, and enclosure setup.

 

yes i will cut the armrest backing out and about the sub, my friend recommends that i put 2 10" subs instead of one to better balance the bass...he put 2 12" in his 240SX....now about it firing toward the trunk, how do you think i should lay it out in the sub cabinet? (see the pic below, it seems to be the best way for me to illusrate this..A B C or D?)

 

face the sub woofer twords the rear of the trunk. And always install the sub with the magnet inside the box.

 

Actually if you wanted to get the same effect of having two boxes or one box that houses two subwoofers you could mount one sub in the box like you normally would, then take the other sub and mount it to the face of the first sub. It sounds a little goofy and looks pretty wierd but it works.

 

First I can't get the attachment to work.

So i'll break down your sealed sub box options. With firing the subs toward the trunk it will be much more boomyer than if you'd fire it up into the deck or forward but will be 3db louder. Fireing it forward intot the car it will not be as loud but will be much more punchy and accurate.

As for "2 10's instead of one sub for better balance"...thats really stupied. One or two your not gonna be able to detect "balance". Thats just really stupied the way he said that.

As for putting the magnet in or out of the box. Most times it makes very little diff in sound and most can't tell the diff anyway.

And yes the 2 subs can go into a 2 chamber enclosure. Thats the word your looking for

 

Isobaric has the same cone surface area and X-max of a standard sealed woofer install. Sealed box volume is halved, accuracy is theoretically improved. I don't think you will find many people who can detect an audible sq improvement. The only increase in output is due to the greater efficiency of parallel wiring woofers. But that is only an improvement if your amp can handle half the impedance of a single woofer. The maximum SPL of the woofer is unaffected, so if you can supply maximum power to a single woofer the output will equal the output of a pair of drivers mounted isobarically.

A and B are basically going to give equal output, and rear firing will give greater output with reduced accuracy/transient response - as max'n out advised. There may be a small benefit of mounting with the magnet inside the box beacause the cone will not be blocked by the magnet. Some woofer frames will vibrate and cause minimum audible distortion when the magnet is mounted outside the box. If the sub is in the trunk and the trunk is closed, or you are more than a few feet away you won't hear this vibration. The benefit of mounting with the magnet outside the box is that you don't have to increase the internal box volume to account for driver displacement. And can actually get a samll amount of extra volume from the air between the cone surface and internal box structure.

I second that two subs have better balance is not good advice. Subs are low-passed and low frequencies are non-directional, therefore balance is not improved by haveing a stereo pair. In fact haveing a pair with mono input will give greater output and accuracy as the stereo bass load will be shared by two drivers instead of one.

 

i say cut the doors and fit at least 6.5 mid bass in themz doors.. as for the sub... it's easier to have them fire into the cabin trhough the arm rest if you want it in a sealed enclosure.. but if u wanna go free air go wtih the rear decklid idea... but hten u'll hafta sound deaden the rear deck lid to prevent rattles.. and it will rattle. looks like an awesome set up.. and i also recomend the components in the kicks.

 

ok now im thinkin of trashing the idea of the kick panel speakers...a couple of car stereo places i went to say that putting speakers in the doors AND kick panels, you just wont notice the difference, that the sound will just cancel each other out.....im starting to lean toward that plus the fact i wont have to spend that much more....what ill probably do instead is throw some 1" tweeters on the top of the front doors and the 4x6's on the bottom of the doors

 

heh and another thing i realized is that i know they must be telling the truth because generally theyre telling you its a bad idea to put more speakers in the car like that....meanwhile they COULD tell you its a good idea and BS to make you want to BUY those extra speakers

 

Theres alot of ways of doing things. It would only "cancel" which isn't the right word, if you ran the same frequency's to both speakers. But some folks like having a seperate speaker for each range and for room considerstions will run a midbass in the door midrange in the kick and tweet in the kick or pilller.

 

what do you guys think about a band-pass box? ported up to the deck, in the middle of the deck with a 6x9 on each side. with this set up all bass will be in the car not in the trunk.

 

It's up to you completly. Again there are many ways of doing sub setups. BP boxes to me suck. They do not maintain control over the sub in a natural way to make notes sound smooth and natural.

What exactly are you hoping to get out of everything you are going to do maybe I could suggest some things to help you through it better.

 

The definite givens so far: the 3 way 6x9s in the back, the head unit (Pioneer DEHP4300 or 3300) and speakers in the front doors.

Concern #1: front door speakers. Is it best to go with either -
-4x6 2-ways?
-6 1/2 2-ways?
-component set where the mids go on the bottom of the front door and then the seperate tweeters on either top of door or A-pillar?

Concern #2: wiring. Can i hook up the new spkrs using the factory bose wiring or do i have to put in new wiring?

Concern #3: subs. About that advice my friend told me about "better balance with 2 subs" he meant that with more "involved" music and bass (rockish stuff as compared to just simple boom-boom-booms rap), 2 subs will be more efficient in "hitting", like theyll hit better with 2. There'll be 2 subs instead of one to better handle the more involved bass response to more involved music as such without throwing all the pressure on one sub. If this proves true which i think it is i will most likely go with 2 10 inchers firing toward the inside of the car in a box in the trunk...(im cutting out armrest backing)

Concern #4: amps. basically just everthing about amps i need to know (just in the subwoofer hookups area)...i plan on running the regular inside speakers directly off of the deck and then a seperate amp for the 2 10" subs. How to wire it, what kinda amp i need, watts, etc?

Once these concerns are cleared up ill then know exactly what to get and ill be set....hopefully ill be getting all this for xmas

 

I'll Intertwin my coments with yours, yours are in ()
(The definite givens so far: the 3 way 6x9s in the back, the head unit (Pioneer DEHP4300 or 3300) and speakers in the front doors.)

What year is your car? If you told me sorry I forgot. But why is it you want 6x9's, in the deck, that prob woun't sound real good when you have the subs up real loud.

(Concern #1: front door speakers. Is it best to go with either -
-4x6 2-ways?
-6 1/2 2-ways?
-component set where the mids go on the bottom of the front door and then the seperate tweeters on either top of door or A-pillar?)

It's up to you. Personally I like seperates. It also depends on your car and what fits with no mods. Having seperates gives you some freedom with moving the tweeter to different locations where you feel it give you the best sound.

(Concern #2: wiring. Can i hook up the new spkrs using the factory bose wiring or do i have to put in new wiring?)

Most of the time yes. Do a search a hundred things about using the factory head should come up all you ever needed and all you ever din't want to know will be there.

(Concern #3: subs. About that advice my friend told me about "better balance with 2 subs" he meant that with more "involved" music and bass (rockish stuff as compared to just simple boom-boom-booms rap), 2 subs will be more efficient in "hitting", like theyll hit better with 2. There'll be 2 subs instead of one to better handle the more involved bass response to more involved music as such without throwing all the pressure on one sub. If this proves true which i think it is i will most likely go with 2 10 inchers firing toward the inside of the car in a box in the trunk...(im cutting out armrest backing))

Your friends' an idiot. I know what he's trying to get at put it's odd. Here let me see if I can clean it up. 1 10" sub will be pretty punchy. 2 of that same sub will just increase the amount of bass that you hear. More effecient, no, infact one sub can use all of the power an amp puts out but when you use 2 each subs gonna get some power. What two subs may give you is the ablity to turn down the gain so that you don't have the amp turned up so high as you would with one trying to get the volume out of it. Your idea for firing the sub into the car is good if you want good hard tight punchy bass(thats what i like).

(Concern #4: amps. basically just everthing about amps i need to know (just in the subwoofer hookups area)...i plan on running the regular inside speakers directly off of the deck and then a seperate amp for the 2 10" subs. How to wire it, what kinda amp i need, watts, etc?)

What kind of amp you need is determined by what sub you get, how many watts by what subs you get and how loud you want it. Wire size depends on that too. How to hook it up depends on the VC's and how many there are, and on what the amp can deal with.

(Once these concerns are cleared up ill then know exactly what to get and ill be set....hopefully ill be getting all this for xmas [/B)

I think you better decide soon then

 

its a 92 with bose...im putting 6x9s because thats what fits back there on the rear deck (the existing bose are 6x9) yeah i think i will do the components in the front doors, maybe with the tweeters up by the side mirrors (i scratched the idea of the kick speakers) so itll just be the front components, rear 6x9 and 10" sub.....think if i go to a 12" would it really make that much of a difference? lol ill talk to my friend again tomorrow about his 2-sub advice

 

Ok, with the componets puting the tweet in the mirror cup would be ok but I think you may like it better with them in the a piller, I'm not a fan of rear spekers but understand why people want them, just make sure you put them back there cuz you want them there and not for other people. yes a 12" will make a difference in terms of volume and a little in sound, you may or may not notice it.

I think you should stop talking to your friend. He's got some knowledge but some misconceptions that I doubt you want at this point.

 

Scrap the rear speakers, 6X9, and spend the money on better front end components. That's my 2 cents. I don't sit in back. I'm the only driver of the car. What the hell would anyone need rear speakers for? If you use them get them off the rear deck because that is where most of the bass from the sub passes into the passenger compartment. They'll turn into swiss cheese if you get a good sub.

 

i use rear speakers for rear fill.. but of course u knew that already. but i totally agree.. i can hear a difference between a ten and a twelve.. the twelve tends to push a cleaner lower frequency as opposed to a 10" woofer.. (assuming it' sthe same brand) but it's not a very noticable difference, hafta really sit there with my eyes closed to hear them both.

 

But then the only sound youll hear coming from the back is bass and bass alone. I dont want that, i want to hear SOME mid-highs back there as well. Basically what im looking for is my highs and most of my mids up front with components, the rest of my mids/some highs in the backs and then the sub for a little extra "bass flavor" to the whole setup.

 

The reason for not having speakers in the rear is simple. Do you sit at a concert with your back to the stage???? Thats why. Theres no sound coming from the rear anywhere but cars. If thats what you want then fine, I understand but thats why people say that. And really in a good setup(mine) the bass should be in the front not the rear. But hey it's your car do the setup the way ya want.

 

If the sub and crossover are properly tuned then it will be difficult to tell that the bass is coming from the back. Bass is nondirectional. If your mids can accurately play below 100Hz it should sound like everything is up front. So scrap the 6X9's and spend the money where it is needed, the front stage.

 

so then ill have just my front components and rear sub? and to have the sound coming from only the front that means cramming all the speakers, sound etc up front and i dont see the point....sometimes ill drive with the fade turned only to the front speakers and it feels like something is missing without the rears on as well....i go for the surround sound effect with sound all around

 

to confuse you even more, if you want to go with sq+ then u should put components in the back. if you're going to play DVD's and such you're going to hafta go with some good rear speakers too.. but the rears are still not as important as the fronts.

 

Come listen to my system. You won't know that there is no rear fill because you'll be blown away by the front stage. Don't ask where the sub is because you will be disapointed to find that I don't even have one hooked up right now. But that will probably change next week. But if you still want to hear how good it can sound with just the front speakers I can disconnect the turn-on lead for the sub amp, rear speakers, or any set of components in the car. I do have rear fill but they are currently disconnected for modifications to rear doors. And I don't miss not having them. They only play from 65 HZ up to about 2000 Hz so not to distract from the front stage. There is no such thing as "surround sound" without a proper DSP or lots of delay and crossover tactics.

 

how are your speakers set up and where are they placed in the car?

 

I'm not him but i have 6.5's in the kicks tweets in the apiller and 2 12"s in the rear. You can see pics on my hompage.

But really a good sounding car idealy runs as few speakers as possible. And if you look to reproduce music in a natural way then all sound should eminate from the front of the car ,like i said only cars and movie theraters have sound from weird places. And movies of course are very different from music.

But hey once you get into trying to make the car sound great it's gets rather expensive and frustrating trying to make it better and better. So maybe sticking with just replacing the factory stuff is fine. If i did that i prob woun't think of the cars I could have instead of the one i do have.

 

so thats it, just the front components and 12" subs? my friend has a 91 maxima (no not the 2-sub friend, another guy) he has 2 6x9s in the rear, he will be putting 2 MORE 6x9s up front in the doors, 4x6's on the sides of the console and these old pyramid speakers in the armrest backing and 3 subs. I personally think hes a nutjob with all that. Im with you on getting better sound out of less quantity but better quality speakers. I havent actually heard his stereo yet...but still i know im not going that crazy. I was sitting out in my car before playin a live version of Free Bird (great song ) on my stock bose and i was playin with the fade so i could try to hear what you were talkin about - sound coming from the front half of the car. And i just think it sounds better with the "support" from the rear speakers.

 

One of the reasons is the way the speakers produce sound, in your car. Let me ask you this; i assume youve been to live concerts or at least a high school music concert. Do you like the way that sounds? Cuz thats the way my car is. Life like. With your car your prob not getting the low tones out of the front speakers and thats why you think the rears make it sound better same with the highs.

 

well yeah its kinda hard to tell with my current stereo but i was tryin to get the general idea. Of course when i have my subs ill have that bass support in the back. How do you have yours set up to get that "live concert" sound or is it just due to the fact of their location in the car

 

Some of it has to do with the equipment some of it has to do with locations, some of it has to do with lots of tuning. Pics are on my hompage

 

If you have speakers well placed up front - inkicks, well aimed from doors, your choice - they will be both louder because of the better aiming and you will have better imaging. Higher quality components will increase this affect.
I am definitely not a fan of the 'more is better hypothesis' but with careful planning there are some things that can be done with more drivers.
1)D'Appolito designs use more than one mid with each tweet to balance the output of the two drivers because most tweets are several dB's more efficient than mids. You can also get impressive directionality from mids when stacked in a vertical array. This can help further define 'left' and 'right'.
2)SPL - two identical cones will move twice as much air as a single cone. Also two 4 ohm drivers run parallel will drop the load at the amp to a 2 ohm load where some car amps perform more idealy. This second aspect is the more difficult to attain. Most car amps claim to be stable at two ohms but the amount of control they exhibit drops. Maybe unnoticably with subs that commonly have high distortion levels but with mids the increase in distortion is more obvious, particularly at high levels. I am currently hoping to win the lottery so that I can switch to BRAX or Zapco competition amps. My PG ZX475Ti just can't do the job optimally.

Why do I mention all this? Because I have two 5 1/4's in each kick along with a single silk tweet. And two 6 1/2's in each door for midbass. 6 1/2's see 75-400 Hz, 5 1/4's see ~400-3900 Hz, tweets see 3900 and up.

 

Your concerned that without speakers in the deck there is no fill... If you want equal sound from each sitting position you have to think about how they set up theaters.... front doors need componets and tweeters same in back doors, remember it doesnt matter where the bass is positioned because nothing with stop a bass frequency which is why you hear the bass outside of a car driving by and you dont hear the mid or highs mids and highs will bounce around highs do it more and benefit from the direction they are aimed at. So with this setup and tuned right it should give u the exact same sound wether you are in the drivers seat or the back seat....Did this make any sence???

 

i browsed through your competition website and i notice almost everyone there has kick panel setups...im still thinking toward doing this but am toying around with some options for my front end:
1-components for the kicks and just have no speakers in the bose doors (arent the 92 bose components?)
2-components for the kicks and keep the bose front doors as well (so itll be the kicks AND front bose)
3-components in the front bose doors and throw the tweeters in the A-pillars and have no kicks
(if i do component kicks ill probably put the tweeters up in the a pillars or doors anyway because id like to "spread out" the sound over the front end as much as possible)
**also, what exactly are the mid-ranges and mid-basses that i can work into the system too

I still havent decided about the rears yet so well leave them out of the argument for now.

 

#1 is the best option with the best chances of success the first try. #2 will most likely mess up the stage by haveing more than one speaker playing the same frequency, and two different makes of speakers as well. #3 If you toss the mid in the door where you currently have a mid and the tweet in the a-pillar you will basically have factory bose sound. Which some people actually like but I am not one of them. You really shouldn't move the tweet that far from the mid if you want them to really sound like thay are mounted in the same place. And the whole idea of kicks is to keep the tweets as close to equidistant as possible. So why bother with kicks if the tweets aren't in them?