I filled up at a local BP yesterday because I knew they had the Crystal Clear Ultimate. My car seems to perform better in terms of smoother acceleration, less hesitation, and better fuel economy. As I was waiting, I noticed a sticker that said, "May contain up to 10% ethanol." Being curious, I went inside and asked the attendant if all grades of fueled contained ethanaol. To my chagrin, the answer was, "Yes." My questions then are:

1) Do all midwest BPs that carry Crystal Clear Ultimate have ethanol blended with the fuel?
2) Doesn't ethanol contain LESS energy than gasoline? Wouldn't I be better served buying fuel that doesn't contain any corn alcohol?

When gas is over $3/gallon, I don't feel like paying to put corn in my gas tank. Anyone else with me on this?

 

1-not sure
2-yes ethanol on a good day has 60% of the energy that gas has, if you can get gas without it go for it.

Ask George on that last part, i hope, but doubt, that he has a damned good explanation.

 

My general comment is that the ethanol lobby is very powerful in Washington. They have both Republicans and Democrats working for them. The theory is that the farmer benefits from ethanol. (In truth the big benefit from ethanol goes to the ethanol lobby, lead by ADM.) But we the consumer suffer more than the farmer benefits. Don't know what you can do about ethanol in your gasoline, particularly in the mid-west. If you check you will see that all of the competition in Illinois also have ethanol in their gasoline.

To answer your questions:
1) Most likely, at least most of the time. Hard to get away from ethanol in mid-west.
2)Yes. The oxygen atoms in ethanol replace some carbon atoms that would otherwise be in gasoline. Oxygen has no energy, while carbon does. With 10% ethanol in your gasoline you should get about 6% poorer gas mileage. Ethanol at 10% will boost the octane of 87 regular to 89 octane. But there are other gasoline components that will boost the octane and not cut the mileage.

Because pure ethanol is also crystal clear, it will not introduce the poorer burning fractions that gasoline that is not crystal clear have. I expect that you will still find the performance of BP's crystal clear with 10% ethanol is better than any other brand of premium with 10% ethanol.

 

Thanks for that info, I've been running 89 with 10% ethanol, I get 24mpg, so I should get about 25mpg with 91? where's the 6% come from? I started a test since I gas weekly, very consistent mileage, trying 91 for a month to see how much it changes. Car runs great with with the 89, so I'm curious about the 91. Thanks again.

 

There are so many factors that also impact gasoline mileage (head or tail wind, temperature, traffic, a lead foot one day, etc) that you will need to do the test you talk about over a time like a month. Good luck.

 

hmmm, "trying 91 for a month to see how much it changes." Phillips66, then I think I'll try each major brand for a month each. Anybody done this already?

 

I can't find Blue Spring, MO on my map. Are you near KC or St Louis (or even Columbia). In Missouri, those are the three major distribution points for petroleum products (with Columbia much smaller). Phillips also had a pipeline across the state with a terminal more south (hard to remember exactly.) Let me know where you are and I will try and remember how many terminals there are in each (Columbia only has one terminal) for distribution of petroleum products. This matters for your tests.

 

Blue Springs is outside KC, E on I70. Would the BPs have the ethanol blend here? I have BP, Shell, Phillips and some independents. QuickTrips are big here. I've been going to Casey's, they have the 89 with the ethanol, which was about .04 cheaper than the 87 most of the time, seemed like a good deal 89 and cheaper, but now I wonder.

 

In Kansas City, BP has their own terminal at Sugar Creek with gas refined at Whiting, IN. The others get their fuel from two or three terminals in the KC area that are supplied from the south. Other than BP, all other gas comes from one of those three terminals and comes out of the same tank for all companies drawing on that terminal. The only difference will be in the additive package and the amount of ethanol that each company adds to the gasoline. (In the '90 those terminals were owned by Phillips, Williams Bros, and -- don't remember -- may have been Conoco). Pay your money and take your chances. All terminals are checked for gasoline quality, so you normally won't have a problem.

 

I know Shell here in IL also blends up to 10% ethanol in all fuels. Looks like I found two brands I'm avoiding as long as gas stays this expensive.

 

Check the pump labels on all gasoline pumps in the mid-west. You will almost always see an ethanol sign on them. The sign will most likely say: "May contain up to 10% ethanol." You will have to ask the station personnel (if they even know) whether the current gasoline has ethanol, and if so, how much. Good luck.

 

It is mandated by the Federal Government here where I live. ALL GASOLINE sold here has the 10% mixture. It's based on EPA air polution levels of certain parts of the USA. 3 counties here require the mixed gas. Our state is in in the process of making the whole state require the mixed gas! I have read that other states/cities/counties have this federal mandate too.

 

Ty, I told you if it does not have ethanol, it will have MTBE in it to raise the octane and make it burn "cleaner."

 

It is a myth that either ethanol or MTBE will make gasoline burn cleaner. Ever since cars first had oxygen sensors installed in the 1980;s or so, the presence of oxygen in the fuel (in the form of either ethanol or MTBE) has not had any effect on how well the gasoline mixture burns. The oxygen sensor combined with fuel injection fixed the problem of over rich mixtures and incomplete combustion that happened in carburated vehicles.

 

i realize that, hence the quotes. in most states it is mandated by the epa to have an mtbe or ethanol mixture added.

 

http://subsites.bp.com/ultimate/us/about/questions.asp

From what I learned in the paper this weekend, all gas in my area contains ethonal in the winter. time to research if this is true and about the warmer months.

 

It was in the paper this week here, they are trying to get rid of this ethenol mixed gas. Quite a political issue lately here.
Also, were are getting bombarded with TV ads lately about the benefits of
using BP Ultimate, Shell V-Power and Mobile clean gasoline. All are pushing their gas as the best, a big issue as of late.....?

 

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Fil...p%20100102.pdf

Essentially all the gas sold in the Chicagoland-Milwaukee area will have Ethanol in it.

 

The Farm Lobby is very powerful -- it has power among both Democart and Republican politicians. They are pushing ethanol in gasoline -- not for cost or performance benefits -- but for political benefits. Unfortunately, the farmer does not get very much benefit out of forcing ethanol into gasoline. The big benefits go to the ethanol makers (particularly ADM -- Archer Danials Midland) and the politicians who take their money. The farmers think they benefit, but it is very minor compared to what the others get.

 

I think the ethanol is part of the Clean Air Act. Although maybe it is something else.

Years ago, when I was going to NIU out in Dekalb Illinois, when I gased up out there, I could feel a noticeable increase in power as opposed to the gas I got in the Chicago suburbs. I had a Saturn back then. I was getting about 27mpg on Chicago gas, and about 30-31 on Dekalb gas. I was told it was because out in Dekalb they did not use the Clean Air Act formula of gas. I also remember it being about $1.10 to $1.20 when gas in Chicago suburbs was 10 to 20 cents higher. (I cant believe how cheap gas was then, or how expensive it is now.)

I did an experiment recently because of said gas prices. I drive on the Tri-State (anyone from around here knows how fast traffic flies on I94). I usually do around 80-90mph when traffic permits.

Lately I have been keeping it around 70. And I have been keeping my right foot much lighter. My mileage went from 23 to 27. That translates at most to about $400 a year in savings. Not sure the extra time it takes is worth it.

By the way, I heard somewhere that there are several hundred formulas of gas being sold in the US. Think how much cheaper gas would be to produce if there was only one.

 

Ethanol is about 113 octane at 190 proof, I think.

The real deal with ethanol is that you can grow it, and not have to pay OPEC for it. We just need to make it cheap enough so that it becomes a good deal for the energy content of a gallon of it.

Of course, you can get a still and make your own (just don't tell anyone "next door" about it). I have done much research on ethanol and it seems that E14 is the limit before you must mod the fuel system.
still plans
and there are sites that will tell you the other details of ethanol porduction.

 

Your octane rating for ethanol is essentially correct because blending 90% of 87 octane regular plus 10% (my assumed 110 octane) ethanol results in 89.3 octane mid-grade gasohol. This is a blend that is frequently made in the plains states to get mid-grade gasoline. My memory is that the octane rating for ethanol is not a single number but a range -- but I don't remember that range.

Also, 190 proof ethanol contains 5% water. It's hard to get all of the water out of ethanol and that is one of its advantages -- it picks up any water that may be in your gas tank.

E14 is (I believe) 14% ethanol blended into 86% gasoline. But you will notice (if you look carefully) that most car makers state that you should not burn gasoline with more than 10% ethanol.

Correct, you can grow corn and other crops that can be made into ethanol. But you must have some form of energy to turn these crops into ethanol -- and when you subtract the energy needed to grow crops, transport crops and convert crops into ethanol, the net energy gain from making ethanol is very close to ZERO. This is a fact that is not well known because ADM (and other ethanol producers) don't want it to be known. Why, because they make so much money for producing ethanol while the farmers who grow the crops make very little -- when compared to selling the crops as food. Don't get fooled by the ADM hype for ethanol.

 

"Still", I plan on trying limited production for myself and some friends as an octane booster. I think on a small scale just as a booster, it will be cost effective.
I plan to try this not just with corn, but with other bio-material and see what I get.


Oh, no, I know that ADM is never up to much good. PR crap they put on TV is just so much crap.

I wonder if bio-diesel is more cost effective? I hear that people have gotten the cost of a gallon to about 50 cents just doing it at home in the garage.

 

And you're going to use your Maxima as a guinea pig after you produce this crap? I would be inclined to try it out on some pos first.

 

I've had noticibly better results from the Shell V power.

 

I like it when others recognize this ethanol hype -- ethanol is a biofuel. Here is a qoute from an article in the Wall Street Journal, note also that the cost comparison is based on the energy released from a fuel. Ethanol has less energy per gallon than gasoline:

"The International Energy Agency in Paris figures the cost of biofuel often exceeds the cost of fuel from traditional crude by 35% or more, per unit of energy released. Such fuels now supply only about 1% of the world's transport-fuel needs, the IEA says."

I should acknowledget that bio-diesel fuel can make more sense (than ethanol) provided the energy cost to make it are not too high. But there are no Diesel Maximas.

 

Another problem with ethanol is cold climates. A 100% ethanol-fueled engine will not start when the temp. is below 40deg.

With sugar cane, ethanol is economically feasible as can be seen in Brazil. But it's not economical to do so with corn, even with high oil prices. I say we rape and plunder the middle east's oil until it is gone. When/if that day comes, then we can use ethanol.

Due to politics, you can only get gas with a 10% ethanol in the midwest. You have to appease ADM and the corn farmers.

 

Who the hell is driving a car with 100% ethanol. In fact, 10% ethanol fuel will start better in cold weather as the ethanol helps to remove moisture from the fuel system, thereby eliminating the need for gasline antifreeze, winter gas, and methyl hydrate alternatively.

 

There are vehicles built for pure ethanol -- but none that I know about in the US. You are right about not needing gas-line antifreeze when using 10% ethanol. However, ethanol does not remove the water, it combines with the water and sends the water-ethanol mix to the engine to be burned. Also, ethanol does not vaporize as well as butane (and many other components of pure gasoline), so it does not help starting a cold engine (only keeps any water in the gasoline from freezing). Go back and read my post on winter gasoline having to do with the ability of the fuel to vaporize when the temp is very cold. Ethanol does nothing for that difficulty.

 

Brazil drives 100% ethanol cars.

If there isn't any water in the fuel system, and it's not cold enough to need gasoline antifreeze, then ethanol does not help.

 

Most of this thread has about discussing the problems with ethanol in gasoline. With senseless government mandates of ethanol, that question has become somewhat moot -- until the politicians stop meddling in the oil industry, it will be there.

But I just heard from a reliable source that BP has made a decision to stop production and sale of Crystal Clear Amoco Ultimate (premium) gasoline in all existing markets where it is now being sold, except metropolitan Chicago.

Seems they have a large refinery at Texas City that was damaged by an explosion and later the hurricanes. There will be a number of old units that will not be started when that refinery is finally started again in a few weeks. Thought all of you Max owners in the East should be made aware of this change -- it will probably not be made public, but will change in the background.

 

Given that MTBE is being phased out, and ethanol is being ramped up, get used to the change. Take a look at the share price of ethanol producers,eg PEIX on the Nasdaq, and you'll understand that its here to stay. The fundamental problem this year is the lack of trucks to transport the ethanol to the refinderies, consequently gas prices are bound to eclipse the peak of last summer.

Is there any 79 octane in Colorado?

 

I hope you mean 89 octane??? I've never seen octane lower than 85. In UT and the mountain states, it's usually 85, 87, and 91. Maverick has 85,87,89, and 91.

 

I think Bobo's question has to do with sub-octane gasoline that, when blended with ethanol (and in the past MTBE), gives you the final octane gasoline for a market. In many corn growing states (IA, NE, etc), they blend 10% ethanol into 87 octane regular and end up with 89 octane mid-grade. For an ethanol blend stock in the Rockies to produce the normal 85 octane regular gasoline, you would probably neeed to start with about 83 octane -- not 79 octane.

SR is correct that 85 octane is the lowest available for purchase at gas stations. I don't doubt that there are terminal tanks with something like 83 octane blend gasoline from the refineries that need 10% ethanol to get to the final octane. If the oil companies did not do this, they would be "giving octane away" -- which happens on occasion, but not consistently.

 

Actually, I was being facetious and intimating that with the high cost of gasoline this summer, some might resort to an even lower octane than 85 if it existed.

 

I carefully follow what the Maxima Owners Manual says about gasoline. Above 4 K feet in elevation the 04 manual says that it is safe to burn 85 octane regular. This is what I do -- but would not go below that octane -- if it were availabel -- which is is not. The engineers who designed the Max know what is safe and what gives maximum engine performance. 85 octane is safe, 91 octane gives maximum VQ engine performance.

Get over it.

 

You're the one that needs to get over it! I was merely making a comment about the high cost of gasoline going forward.