Horse or anyone that is aware, is there some way to buy that ZDDP additive concentrated in a small bottle to just pour it in at the oil change - for new camshaft protection?

I bought the AC Delco EOS that has it, but this could get costly to add it to regular oil every time. I've heard Shell Rotella T has this stuff in the oil still, and may be one of the few remaining oils that has it, but I don't think it's comes in 5W-30, it has some diesel ratings.

What's the work around?

 

My buddy has to use this stuff in his '67 fastback stang with a built 351 cleveland, and he had a very hard time finding the additive locally also. A quick search on E-bay for ZDDP turned up alot

 

I would be cautious using Zinc additives.

If you are looking for a motor oil that is heavily fortified with Zinc, try AMSOIL "Premium Protection" 10w-40, Product Code AMO. This oil is specifically recommended for flat tappet, high performance, heavy duty and high mileage applications. In fact a renowned expert on the earlier generation Corvette ZR-1 engine manufactured between 1990-1995 recommends this oil exclusively for the ZR-1 engine because it has flat tappets and most current SM-rated oils typically don't provide the necessary level of protection for this design. AMSOIL AMO has been named in articles in Corvette magazine and is recommended for the old generation ZR-1's for this reason.

If I were inclined to use a diesel oil (which I'm not), I would definitely consider AMSOIL 15w-40 Synthetic Marine and Diesel oil (AME) or the Series 3000 5w-30 Synthetic Heavy Duty Diesel Oil (HDD) over Shell Rotella...the up-front investment might be slightly higher, but I've read field tests where fleet operators are able to extend service intervals by a factor of 3 and reduce wear on their equipment with AMSOIL AME over Rotella. AMSOIL AME and HDD are both SL rated for gasoline applications.

If you want a 30-weight oil that will also offer outstanding winter performance, AMSOIL Signature Series (SSO) 0w-30 contains a very robust additive package that offers superior wear protection without the adverse effect Zinc will have on your emission control systems over time. AMSOIL SSO is SM rated so it will be kinder to your catalyic converter(s) and potentially save/delay a costly repair down the road.

Pls send me a PM for current pricing...

 

I use Rotella T Synthetic 5W40 in my heavily abused and raced VQ35 4th gen. Got my first oil analysis done a few days ago. Results turned out to be very good. Put 4500miles on that oil, including one full track day (1 hour and 20 minutes of lapping is more abuse than you can possibly imagine on a car, oil temps as high as 275 degrees F) and 3 days at the drag strip, then daily driving for a couple months. This was a junkyard engine (who knows how well it was taken care of or not taken care of) with 70k miles on it when I got it, has probably 90k miles on it now.

 

I'm sure it performed well for you, but diesel oils contain a more aggressive additive package than typical oils formulated for gasoline engines do. While these diesel oils might provide good protection, they will have an adverse effect on catalytic converters over time...and those are not cheap to replace. There are gasoline engine formulated oils out there that meet SM requirements, provide outstanding wear protection and be less harmful to emission control systems.

 

Yes I was aware of that, I don't run it in my other maxima which is catted. My 3.5 swap car has no emissions equipment on it whatsoever (neither do any of my friends that run it) - we are lucky up here that we don't have to worry about that stuff.

I wasn't aware that there were gasoline engine oil formulations that provide the same level of protection though, that is good info to know for people who don't have the luxury of not having emissions testing and as you said it's not really that expensive either. Only costs about $10-12 more per oil change it looks like. Nice.

 

Rotella has reduced the amount of Zinc in their diesel oils to conform to more strict emission regarding diesels. IMHO the amount might reduced to a point where it's not really a concern?

 

The highest concentration in an additive I've located is called Comp Cams. Maybe after break-in, i'll just add a bit of the bottle on each oil change.

Horse, I've calculated the cost of the Amsoil for oil, although I think it's worth it for the tranny fluid, it's too costly for me for every oil change. My OCI is 6000 KM city driving, so i'm going to stick with Walmart Super Tech 5W-30 (Safety-Kleen), and try and find the zinc in a bottle that I can just add a bit at a time.

 

I believe you...I just don't know how reduced is reduced. API limited ZDDP levels for SM-rated oils essentially in 10w-30 viscosities and lighter...and it's those viscosities that as you know are most often recommended for modern engines. The higher viscosity oils (such as those typically recommended for diesels) are not bound by the same limits. There's also different formulations for diesel oils...those for ultra-low emission engines produced for model year 2007 and newer (CJ-4), and oil for pre-2007 engines...so one needs to be knowledgeable as to what they're actually buying. Sounds like you're talking about the CJ-4 oil.

People a lot smarter than me design engines, formulate oils and make recommendations for a reason. EPA and/or API must have determined that high amounts of ZDDP in oils shortened the life of emission control systems, which in turn contributes to air pollution. I recently had one of the cats replaced on my I-30 and it was pretty expensive. The shop owner told me that there are lots of cars running around with the service lights on for that reason and people either don't have the money to get the cars fixed or they just won't be bothered. We don't have emissions checks in San Antonio, but in areas where they do the cars won't pass inspection if it fails an emissions check or in some cases if the SES light is on. Everything is a trade-off...if one thinks they really need an oil with higher amounts of zinc, then they might well be setting themselves up for a costly repair down the line. There are PCMOs available that meet API SM requirements and still offer outstanding wear protection through the use of other advanced additives...not convinced a diesel oil, zinc additives, or other high-zinc formulations are necessary for most people driving modern street cars.

 

In my case, I too was interested in an oil that provided good protection. I broke in my motor with Castrol GTX and a bottle of Comp Cam break-in additive (very high in zinc), it was also recommened to me by the engine builder that did machine work on my block, he also warned me about the cat's but as we know in FL we dont have emissions, so im covered. I have about 4 to 5k miles on the motor and I am still using the Castrol GTX (10w40) + the Comp Cam. I think I am going to stick to this, I haven't done an oil analysis yet though but I dont see why it wouldn't be a good mix

 

That's what I did, comp cams break-in. I used half a bottle for the initial 20 min flush, then the other half for the first fill. I have an extra bottle of the AC Delco EOS which has the zinc in it, but i've found out that it's a very low amount, pretty useless. Consensus is Comp Cams is one of if not the highest concentration, there is one other that alot of flat tappet customers were using as it was cheaper and it had a really high amount of zinc in it too, I forgot the name but I may use that on every oil change. The bottle was much bigger I recall.

Comp cams on every oil change would be way too costly. The stuff isn't cheap around here at least. How much by the way are you planning on using on each oil change, do you think a 1/4 bottle would be suffice?

I'm going to stick to it too. I want this camshaft and lifters to last. Don't know what killed the last one, but I'm wondering if it was because the zinc was removed from the oil....in what yr I don't know. That cylinder head had a slow death over a yr, but by the end it was rattling like crazy.

 

Here it is - I found it. It's called Joe Gibbs:

http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/pro...nebuilder.html

Supposedly the zinc is adequate in this product too.

 

The Joe GIbbs is another great oil, was also recommended to me by that same builder that told me about comp cam.

Bottles here are 15 bucks, I am using one full bottle for every oil change.

 

I read a few posts on here concerning the Zinc in Rotella T and the damage done to Catalytic converters, but wouldn't that only apply to cars that are consuming oil?

If your car is not consuming oil, then wouldn't all that Zinc and other things that are bad for our cats just all stay in the engine?

 

I had another question that might be usable for others later on. Say we were to use Rotella, what weight would be recommended for the VQ's with standard size bearings, for Miami weather for example (5w40?)? Nealoc?

 

Not necessarily...some of the oil by-products and vapors are released by means of the crankcase ventilation system, channeled back to your intake and then burned.

 

Ah that makes sense haha

But would the products that are harmful to the cats, be one of those by-products??

Sorry for some reason I keep thinking that since Zinc is a metal it will continue to stay inside the engine

 

I don't see how the zinc could damage our cat - the original 3rd gen was out at the time the zinc was still in the oil, so they were running around like that all the time. And the comp cams is only typically used for the initial break-in. 'They' tell you to use 1 bottle later on every change, but that would probably be what would kill the cat, because 1 bottle is too concentrated to be running around forever like that with that much zinc going to the cat.

I'm thinking a 3rd of a bottle on every oil change would be enough.

 

flat tapped cam engines benefit from the ZDDP/Rotella, i remember reading in a mag years ago, that the reason they changed the contents of the regular oils was bc they want cats to live to over 300k miles, instead of a 100K. dont think it gives a benefit to more modern engines. I mean , plenty vq30s running around well over 200k with regular oils.

 

ZDDP has not been eliminated from oils...limits have been established for those viscosities typically used in modern automotive engines. Even before the limits were established, some oil manufacturers used more ZDDP in their formulations than other companies did.

Higher doses of ZDDP is still beneficial for those engines with flat tappet cams and high tension valve springs...and some manufacturers still offer oils with higher amounts of ZDDP for these applications. For example, AMSOIL continues to offer 10w-40 and a 20w-50 synthetic oils formulated with a heavy treatment of zinc and other anti-wear additives. These viscosities are not subject to the ZDDP limitations. The additive package used in these oils provides excellent protection of gears, bearings, cam lobes and other high-pressure components in engines and transmissions. As stated in a previous post, these oils have been recommended and are used by the the foremost expert on the previous corvette ZR-1.

So ZDDP has its place, but as I also stated earlier, (and I agree with aic96max) the higher concentrations are not necessary in modern engines used in normal service.

 

Mobil1 publishes the ZDDP levels in their oils.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf

I don't think you have to go to the lengths the flat-tappet guys do, but I understand going towards oils with higher protection levels.

David

 

>I don't think you have to go to the lengths the flat-tappet guys do

But why not? The 3rd gen is flat tappet, so aren't we technically those guys too. However we still don't know if it REALLY does need it.

From what I found, we ideally would want at least 0.12% ZDDP by weight. If you go back to the 1994 Service Manual, we (3rd Gen) are speced at SG Oil. Current SM oils 'should' have far less ZDDP by weight, than the old SG. I think it would be wise to see an oil analysis of a new SM oil, to see what the ZDDP level would be.

There still is the issue of 'only high spring pressures require it' kind of thing, where the VG30E may be just a common commuter car by design and even though back in the day it said SG oil, SG oil was just the current at that time, and it doesn't necessarily mean that it REQUIRED the 0.12% ZDDP or not. Supposedly the bearings also did benefit from the ZDDP coating, but I think the main issue is the cam and lifters.

I know that flat tappet cars from the SF (0.15%) rating era needed it for sure, but it's tough to say for the VG30E. SF was 1988 and older, but when you look at the VG30E you notice it was designed in 1984, so it too probably had an SF rating back then. Did the camshaft and rockers design change when the 1989 Maxima came out? That I have no clue.

 

I don't own a 3rd gen, so I must ask: are 3rd gen owners seeing engine damage/wear related to the cams?

Dave

 

It's hard to say, but last June my LH camshaft failed and needed replacement. It was either the camshaft or lifters, I replaced both, was it because the ZDDP removed in current oil - who knows. The RH camshaft didn't fail.

The higher content ZDDP was removed in 2006 I believe. Would the failures occur in this amount of time? Hard to say. It's kind of up in the air the whole ZDDP thing, but remember those additive companies may push the fear mongering too, just to sell their product. For now, since I got those new parts i'm just putting it in, did the Comp Cams on the first 2 oil changes, now moved to the cheaper AC Delco EOS additive, and used half the bottle.

I guess we'll see over the next few years if we hear of more head wear popping up. I've heard though some of the synthetic oils have some anti-wear stuff to avoid the need for the ZDDP, but I don't believe in spending for synthetic oil, I use the cheapest Dino I can get my hands on.

 

Personally I'd skip the additives and use an affordable synthetic. I get Mobil1 for $23 for a 5qt jug. (Mobil1 also publishes zinc content in their oils, so you can select one well loaded with zddp). That's under $30/change even with a premium filter.

Lubrication is done by the formation of a cushioning film of oil between surfaces as much as anything else, and this is managed by having the ideal viscosity of lubricant. The better the viscosity the more time spent in this lubrication regime and the longer everything lasts, oil included.

Mineral oils do not perform well at both the high and low temperature extremes of winter daily driving. If you choose a viscosity that flows well in the cold it will drain off the cams promoting wear at startup, and then get super thin when hot and fail to lubricate in operation. Synthetics are the best solution IMHO for reducing wear in a daily driver.

Dave

 

Sure, maybe the synthetics have more scientific reasoning behind it, but my reasoning comes down to dollars. Here's my take. If you look at the total cost of ownership, it's kind of irrelevant to try and quantify how much 'better' the oil is. When the VG30E gets high enough in mileage, it should get a major overhaul anyways. The cost of buying that synthetic over the life of the engine, would probably cost more than the overhaul. I guess it depends on how long you want to keep it though. If you want to attempt to keep it forever, then dino is the way to go. When the Maxima came out, it ran on SG dino I take it. Why then all of a sudden our 3rd gens need synthetic, I don't buy it personally, the synthetic hype from the manufacturers. I suspect synthetic is just a scam by the oil companies to milk the public even MORE.

My VG30E lasted over 300,000KM city stop and go driving and bad winters, on Castrol GTX it's whole life, just a run of the mill dino. Walmart just had a quick sale on Penzoil Dino so I bought 2 crates, enough to last me 5 yrs maybe, at $2.06 / L, the total bill came out to $82.08 with tax, that's 35.2L or 7.7 Gallons.

It's a great deal. In fact I suggest you guys check out walmart tonight or tommorow before NYE, I think they are having some blow out sales in the auto section, maybe overstock from the holiday inventory.

 

Synthetic oils do have a lot more scientific reasoning behind them, but the decision to use them or not is a personal choice. Petroleum oil works, but its very well documented that a good quality synthetic oil will outperform its petroleum counterpart in just about every measurable area of performance...and that improvement in performance generally translates into longer and more reliable service life from the engine or other component. When you factor in that a properly formulated synthetic will last longer than its petroleum counterpart, the cost difference is greatly narrowed. In fact, depending on your annual mileage and maintenance program it can sometimes be less expensive to use a synthetic than it is to use petroleum oil at 3,000 mile intervals. Notwithstanding, most people that choose synthetics (and definitely my customers who buy AMSOIL) do so for the performance benefits and the convenience...they'll spend more for a premium product because its worth it to them.

Not sure why you would go thru the effort and expense of overhauling an engine that doesn't need it. What is "high enough in mileage" if the engine is running good? I take care of several vehicles with mileage much higher than yours that run perfectly fine...and those engines have been run on synthetic oil (AMSOIL) with OCIs between 12K and 15K miles since they were new.


The engines do not require a synthetic oil. As I offered above, petroleum oils work and it boils down to personal preference if an individual is willing to spend the additional money for the added performance of a synthetic oil. I think the real scam is for the oil companies to formulate cheap oil and then launch a scare campaign that if consumers don't change their oil every 3-months or 3,000 miles that their engines will be damaged. The technology is there to formulate better quality lubricants, but the major oil companies make more money formulating low cost products that meet the minimum standards and selling a lot of it (than they would making a higher quality product and selling less).

Just my thoughts...

 

Zinc and phosphorous are only two of the additives that make up a lubricants anti-wear package...and the API limits Phosphorous content in SM rated oils to 800 ppm in certain viscosities for gasoline engines. I would expect that most quality oils are going to have at or near the limit of phosphorous in their lubricants, but its the total (anti-wear) package that will determine the lubricants ability to protect against wear...

 

I do agree it's a personal choice, but I think it's just not a very smart choice. In other words, I think it's a bad economic choice. As in, it's not needed, it's wasting money. 'less expensive to use synthetic', I disagree. Unless your talking about buying the lowest grade synthetic compared to the highest grade dino.

I'm not sure how you think an engine that's 16 yrs old, has been driven in the worst possible conditions, and harsh winters, WOULDN'T need an overhaul. Fact is, no motor is going to perform as it did at that point in time, given those conditions. Believe me, you want to take a look, take a look at my own for living proof - photos are on Photobucket. Engine was EXTREMELY weak, it had zero power. Did my overhaul, it feels brand new, like it did 16 yrs ago.

Going through the effort and expense to do an overhaul BEFORE something blows up, is a type of preventative maintenance. Of course, it should be tested first to see what the problem is, but at a certain point it will need to be done, and it will show those symptoms ie. Noisy Cylinder Head etc...., Wobbling Parts... It simply becomes runed down with age. It's wishful thinking to think you can stick any oil in your car and the engine will last FOREVER, and that's it. Every piece of machinery wears out eventually.

Your mileage doesn't compare to NYC type driving conditions. In fact probably even worse in Toronto because the winters might be slightly harsher. I don't know how big San Antonio is, but my guess is, it's not stop and go as far as the eye can see. So who knows what the equation is, but 320,000 KM may equate to 640,000 country driving.

Everything attacks the engine up here. Salt, Corrosion, Dirt, Dust, Excessive Smog, Constant Construction on Highways, Horrible Winters .... .... . the list goes on. Overhaul or Junkyard is the choice.

I guess I can re-word it and say that Synthetic Oil is not economically viable for MY business needs, but it could be viable for the car enthusiast - of which I'm not.

 

"Savings" can be derived several ways...performance, convenience, increased component reliability/service life, etc...it's more than just a simple price comparison between two products. A Kia costs less than a comparable Nissan, Toyota or Honda, but there's a difference in the quality, performance, resale value and general enjoyment of ownership (which is intangible but important to me just the same). Do you "need" the higher priced vehicle...NO. Is it worth it...to me it is, and that's the point. A higher priced product can sometimes result in lower total life-cycle cost making the higher priced product the better overall value, all things considered.

Understand. Obviously your engine needed an overhaul and it sounds like it was a wise choice for you to overhaul it when it did. Performance does degrade over time, but a good lubricant will extend the useful service life of an engine, transmission, differential, etc. I still service a '93 that I bought new and sold to a guy about 7 years ago...the engine and transmission were converted to AMSOIL when it reached 1,000 miles and he has continued to change the oil (with AMSOIL) twice per year, spring and fall, roughly every 12,000 miles (19000 km) since he's owned it. The vehicle has 250,000 miles (over 400,000 km) on it and it operates very well with no engine or transmission issues to date....granted it's not new, but it is not in need of an overhaul as yours was. Since the owner can't do the work himself, it would not be worth the investment for him to have the engine rebuilt or replaced at this point in time. Point is that he's gotten very good reliability and service life out of the engine and transmission with this service regimen. Would he have gotten the same the service from the drivetrain or would he have saved a few cents if he used inexpensive off-the shelf petroleum oil changing it three to four times more often??? Its hard to say, but in his case and in the case of many others, the convenience, component reliability, environmental benefits, potential fuel economy benefits, make the higher priced synthetic oil the right choice.

I appreciate your environment...I've spent the vast majority of my life living in the northern states. I first began using sythetics back in the 70's when I lived in North Dakota...it was so cold there in the winter that my engine would barely turn over with petroleum oil and the differential on my car would literally howl after the car sat outside at work all day...I tried synthetics for the cold weather performance benefits and they made a positive difference. As you know, most engine wear happens at start-up...the cold weather performance of synthetics is well proven to enable an engine to car turn over quicker and reduce wear during those sub-zero starts. I've used synthetics ever since that time and have used AMSOIL exclusively since the early 80's.

Operating conditions in San Antonio are indeed different than yours...in some ways easier and in some ways more severe. Traffic in San Antonio is not NYC...but its not exactly like a drive through the country either. We're something like the 5th largest city in the US, growing like crazy, and the traffic is getting worse by the day...the infrastructure can't keep up with the population growth. Where in Toronto you have the cold weather, salt, etc, we have extreme heat in the summer months. Last summer we had something like 57 consecutive days over 100 deg F, and it's that extreme heat that will wreak havoc on low-quality oils. The oils break down from the heat and form deposits and the high engine operating temperatures destroys the seals. You walk through the parking lots here and they're a mess from people's cars leaking oil all over the place. If you use an inexpensive oil, its important it be changed frequently. My engines, operating at 12K OCIs, are as clean as a whistle and don't have those issues at all...

If petroleum oil works for you and you find comfort in saving money on a lower priced product, then you should continue using it. You've obviousy derived many years of service from your engine with your current maintenance schedule. But there are other alternatives out there for those who want the convenience and performance of a higher quality product and and it doesn't mean that they are arbitrarily throwing money away in choosing it.

I'm glad your engine has been restored to its previous level of performance...winters are tough on cars and it's great that you achieved 16 years (and counting) of service... Good luck with it in the future :-)

 

Actually, I'm concerned about something I found now. Briefly for the past 3 days it got pretty cold. Like -10 c or -13 c at one point. For some strange reason when I start the car, right before it kicks in, I hear a sort of thud sound. I don't know if it's from the dino oil not properly lubricating something or not. It doesn't make the thud sound when the starter starts cranking, so the crankshaft would be turning. I think my paranoia is, that the oil had run off my main bearings or rod bearings, and the thud is the bearings sticking to the journals briefly, or something like that. Sure it's pure paranoia, but this sound has only occured on the REALLY cold days. Is it caused by the oil? Probably not, maybe just a function of the cold. Who knows.

I'm still in the maintenance break-in schedule for the overhaul, so I won't move off dino now, but I have been wondering about that cold weather problem. For instance, a 5W-30 oil, ESSO Extra, is what's in there now, on the bob is the oil guy website they were saying it had good cold weather performance. I can see how the OCI being extended could bring the pricing closer, I haven't thought about that.

Basically, under the EXTREME MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE in the 94 service manual, it says 6000 KM OCI for oil and filter. What can I extend the AMSOIL to, under the extreme maintenance schedule. Also, this poses a problem for the oil filter, since the oil filter is supposed to be changed at 6000KM right? If I extended the OCI, I can't drain out the oil into a pan, change the filter, then put the same oil back in. That's messy.

 

Also another question Horse, the 5W30 Synthetic from AMSOIL. I notice there is 2 available for the 3rd gen, the XL and the regular synthetic right? What's the difference between the 2, and which one can go for the safest extended OCI.

I'm looking at the price list and I notice that it might be near the same price as the yellow bottle pennzoil, as I didn't know that the Amsoil can go that far out in OCI. Are you sure it's safe? Would you be worried going out 24,000 KM? That's an insane amount of time. Thankfully, I can return all the walmart pennzoil, because of their great return policy, if I go with the AMSOIL.

 

You're right...AMSOIL offers two 5w-30 PCMOs, the XL and the "100%" line. Both oils are synthetics, but differences in the base stocks and additive packages result in different levels of performance and different drain recommendations . They also have an SL-rated 5w-30 diesel oil with higher amounts of ZDDP.

AMSOIL Extended Life synthetic oil (XL) will perform for a full 7500 miles (~12,000 km) regardless of operating conditions. Newer cars with oil life monitoring systems can run this oil until the system tells the driver it's time for a change...10,000 to over 12,000 miles depending on the driving conditions.

AMSOIL recommends their "100%" line of synthetics be changed at 15,000 miles (~24,000 km)/1-yr under severe conditions.

Concerning the filter, AMSOIL recommends the filter be changed whenever the oil is changed. I usually recommend a good quality filter such as a Wix for use with the XL oil, and the (higher priced) AMSOIL Ea filter for the longer life oils. The Ea filters are competitively priced with Mobil 1 filters, but they are more efficient and have a longer service life.

Is it safe? The short answer is "yes", but I tell folks that they have to decide on an OCI that they are comfortable with. AMSOIL was the first company to formulate and market an extended drain synthetic oil...and that was back in 1972...so they have more experience in formulating extended life oils than any other manufacturer. I have customers who use this oil for the full length of AMSOIL's recommendations (and beyond) and others who take a more conservative approach...I also have a commercial account and they are running their fleet of cars on the "100%" oil at 20,000+ (miles) change intervals...wix filter change at 10K miles then a full oil change at 20K. They've been doing this for several years with no issues whatsoever...and as you described earlier, these cars spend a lot of time idling (except in the TX heat). They also run AMSOIL ATF and AMSOIL gear oil in the diffs and have had great success with it. AMSOIL fully warrants that their products will perform as labeled and will stand behind it if...I can e-mail you a copy of the warranty if you'd like to read it.

As stated in my previous posts, I drain my oil twice per year (spring and fall) and I typically run upwards to 12,000 miles (>19,000 km) between changes. Where your severe use is the cold, ours is the extreme heat. It might cost me a few dollars to do this, but my OCIs are very convenient for me and I've had much success with it...so its well worth the minor investment.

I've seen on the news that you folks are having bitter cold and lots of snow...that's awful hard on cars (and people).

 

Others have also spoken highly of the ESSO product available in Canada.

And I understand your point from earlier posts...the real scam is those manufacturers of synthetics who charge a premium price for their product but recommend you adhere to the OEMs oil change recommendations. Either the product isn't as good as they want you to believe it is, or they are just trying to make a killing on it.

As stated in my post above, AMSOIL was founded on the premise of Extended Life oils and they continue with that tradition today...the extended service life of the oil offsets the initial investment. Instead of encouraging the consumer to buy more product, AMSOIL encourages the consumer to buy less. The company wouldn't have survived for over 35 years if the products didn't work.

 

Horse, is this the one with the ZDDP your talking about? And is it safe for use with the 3rd Gen?

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/hdd.aspx

This may eliminate my need to buy the ZDDP addititve and I get a longer OCI so I save on both ends. Is there any way you can ask your AMSOIL contacts to find out by weight %, what the ZDDP content is in that particular oil.

Also, do you know if this diesel oil does not contain the detergents that are normally present in the SM oil. Will I run into sludge or excessive varnish buildup because i'm using a diesel oil in the wrong application.

I've sent a message to Baldwin to ask them how many KM their filters can last in severe service. Surprisingly on the Baldwin website they say:

BALDWIN ENGINEERS HAVE BEEN RESEARCHING THE EFFECTS OF EXTENDED OIL DRAIN INTERVALS FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS AND AGREE THAT EXTENDED OIL DRAIN INTERVALS SHOULD BE APPROACHED WITH CAUTION. WHILE EXTENDED INTERVALS MAY SAVE MONEY IN THE SHORT RUN, IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT IMPROPERLY MANAGED OIL CHANGE INTERVALS CAN LEAD TO ACCELERATED ENGINE WEAR AND COSTLY ENGINE REBUILDS. REGULARLY SCHEDULED OIL ANALYSIS SHOULD BE USED TO HELP DETERMINE YOUR EQUIPMENTS SERVICE INTERVAL

 

That's true. Plus am I right in guessing that most of AMSOIL's customers are industrial / commerical users? If a whole fleet starting breaking down because of OCI, that could produce a huge capital loss. I just don't see hoards of everyday people buying these lube products (because most go to Mr Lube), but I can see companies buying them to protect those hideously expensive machines and bull dozers.... Who buys the AMSOIL stuff? How do they stay in business? Not many people change their own oil. for their daily drivers.

 

Yes, that's the product I was talking about....the most current information I have on it indicates it has 1266 ppm of phosphorous and 1379 ppm of zinc. That's about 50% higher than API limits for phosphorous in SM rated oils of this viscosity.

You may have noticed that I am a strong proponent for using the right lubricant for the right application....I'm also not an advocate for oil additives. I've even refrained from selling products to people when they told me they intended to use the lubricant for the wrong purpose. I wouldn't recommend this oil for a vehicle which requires an SM rated oil, but since you seem to be interested in a 5w-30 oil with a high zinc content you will have to use something other than an SM oil to get it. This particular oil is approved for gasoline engines and it meets SL specifications. This oil has very low volatility and a robust additive package so I would not be concerned about sludge or varnish with this product. In my opinion, however, the best option for you would be AMSOIL Signature Series 0w-30 (SSO)...this oil is expensive but it is SM rated; it will offer outstanding cold weather performance; and it provides outstanding wear protection.

Let me know what they say, but my guess is that they will tell you to change the filter in accordance with the OEMs oil/filter change recommendation.

The mistake some people make when it comes to oils in general is that they often assume that all oils are created equal...taking it further, they incorrectly assume that all synthetic oils are the same and that they are all capable of extended drains...nothing is farther from the truth. Where most manufacturers of synthetics recommend their products be changed in accordance with the OEM's recommendations, the base stocks and additive packages used by AMSOIL enables their oils to be used safely for extended periods of time. AMSOIL first introduced a 100% synthetic oil capable of 25,000 mile change intervals back in 1972 and they continue with the concept today.

Another mistake people make is that they don't understand that there are significant differences in filters...efficiency, capacity and service life are the big three when it comes to selecting a filter. Most commonly available, inexpensive filters are comparatively inefficient, have low capacity and have short service lives. In comparison, AMSOIL Ea filters are the most efficient filters on the market, they have outstanding capacity and the full synthetic media is specifically designed to provide up to 25,000 miles or 1-year of service life...a "regular" filter would not provide the level of protection needed for extended drains.

Baldwin/Hastings have been in the filter business for a very long time and they make different lines of filters for different applications...everything from heavy-duty trucks to passenger cars. While their filters are of good quality, I believe their passenger car line of filters contain a traditonal cellulose filtering medium that is definitely not designed for extended use. If you were to use these filters with an extended life oil, the filter would have to be changed at the intervals specified by the OEM.

So i agree that one needs to approach extended drains with caution. But the first precaution should be to know the capabilities of the product you are considering and make an educated decision. One can't assume that any (synthetic) oil and filter combination will provide adquate protection over extended drains, because they are not all the same. Oil analysis is always an option, and I've used it in the past.

 

I don't know the exact distibution of AMSOIL's customers, but I can tell you that the Do It Yourself and enthusiast market is still pretty strong. Concerning the quick lubes, yes, a lot of people use them today and AMSOIL allows me to establish these businesses as accounts...I have several and they sell a lot of oil. Last month, one of my local accounts ordered 5, 30-gallon barrels and 18 cases of quarts of motor oil of different viscosities, ~50 gallons of diesel oil, couple cases of motorcycle oil and some ATF...they go thru more each spring and fall. So it's a combination...do-it yourselfers, quick lubes and commercial accounts.

Mobil-1 is by far the most popular sythetic oil, but they spend a fortune on advertising and that's what brings in customers...with that said, AMSOIL is gaining in popularity and a growing percentage of retailers list AMSOIL as their best selling premium lubricant. I have a motorcycle shop as an account and the owner told me that if he recommends AMSOIL to his customers that 9 out of 10 people will buy it. AMSOIL is not just "staying in business"...they are thriving. AMSOIL (the company) continues to experience double-digit growth even with the downturn in the economy...people are keeping their vehicles longer and they are willing to spend more for a premium product. There's a lot of opportunity out there and I will offer advice and assistance to anyone who is interested.

 

Rotella is all I use in the racecar. Synth..

 

In Canada there is Collector Automobile Motor Oil Check out their website at www.camoils.com you should not use diesel oil because it only has primary ZDDP and not Primary and Secondary ZDDP, also the detergents are too harsh and are fighting for the same location as the zinc. Check out camoils with lots of information on gas engine oils, racing oils and diesel oils.
Bob