AceofSpds

iTrader: (4)

Looks like ill be learning how to do rust repair and body work pretty quick in the next few months. My friend bought a 68 Cougar yesterday for 400 bucks. And the last time it was registered was 1982, the car is a southern car so it does have quite a bit of rust in the quarters and floor pans. The body has no big dents at ALL just a few dings and that is it.

Things we already have or are planning on it:

POR15
Media Blaster
Grinders, cutting wheels, wire wheels, etc...
A flux core MIG and a Stick Welder
Rivet gun


Ive heard great things about POR15 but its pretty pricey and im sure we would use it in the quarters, and and fenders but what would be a good rust converter that is affordable for spots with just surface rust like the roof, trunk, and top?

What about just paint sealers in general? Is the duplicolor stuff pretty good?
And for the MIG what kind of wire can be used as a "filler" for some of the small pin holes.

Feel free to share your opinions on some of the methods and chemicals you have used to fix rust on your maxima's radiator support or other vehicles.

1993-VG30E-GXE

Mine was a mess - I just replaced the radiator and the metal under there was the worst. Literally flaking off by touching it. I basically just took extremely coarse belt sander paper and attacked it. Then I sprayed on a penetrant to see if that would loosen it up more. Then sanded again. In between I used an air blow gun to blast the particles into the air - and into my hair. I had a rusty pillow for a week.

Finally once all the particles were blown off, I mixed 5W-30 engine oil & NLGI No. 2 Grease into a green slime goop bucket. Then with a paint brush, I smeared this goop all over everything. It soaked in and I left it like that. I figured it might be better for it to stay greasy and wet maybe to be water resistant.

Other bad areas were around the transmission mounting areas, around the coolant drain bolt on the engine block, even some rust on the oil pan. The green slime dripped on some parts that caused a nice smoke show when I started the car up.

SNOMAX

iTrader: (14)

Chopstix,

If you are going for major body work, I assume you are doing a frame off restoration. The wire wheels won't help you too much with the body.

Get a good media blaster and shoot the body. then epoxy primer it. once you notice the swiss cheese, start cutting sheet metal out.

As you get pieces out, you will notice more rust behind the panels you couldnt see becasue they were covered.

When you get to making your own sheet metal, do it in small pieces. you never want to cut a piece so large the rest of the panel changes shape. you can also get a basic metal stretch for this stuff--especially around the wheel wheels, windshield channel, weatherstipping type-areas.

Get a GAS mig welder. Do not do wire/rosin core for this. Also forget the rivets. learn to do a proper stitch.

Don't forget to spray the BACK of all your sheet metal patches with weld-through primer.

you also might find a TIG welder handy to melt some silicon-bronze. it's very useful for filling in areas that do not need a whole piece of tin--but still have a lot of holes. you can just melt the sil-bronze rod with the tig. It's kinda like spackle for metal.

hope that helps some.

RLW001

iTrader: (11)

The East Wood Company offers many products to help with restoration projects.

http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?i...ORY&itemID=372

I have used their "Rust Encapsulator" product with great results.

AceofSpds

iTrader: (4)

Thanks! Me and my friend have been talking about what all we are going to do to the car. It isnt going to be a frame off resto, just enough to get the car to a weekend status vehicle, fix and seal as much rust as we can. Since the car is sitting outdoors still we ended up wire wheeling and sanding off most of the surface rust on the body, and just spraybombed it with some rust converter, some primer and then some sealer primer for now until he gets a garage for it.

OH6 G35

+1 on using POR 15.
It really "seals off" the rust!
As far as MIG Welding small holes, I'd recommend using a 110V Welder using .025" wire. Real easy unless you have a "ton" of rust near the hole!

Tarantula

i dont have major rust but i need to take car of it, thanks for the POR 15 tip.

Danny@J&Dauto

POR15 FTW!

jlidon

I had water pooling on my floors this spring and was not sure why until I took out the back seat and found that my wheel wells were seriously rusted. Pushed my hand right through them. I cleaned them up as best I could and did a fiberglass job on it. Then sprayed with a rustproofiing paint followed by a foaming undercoating substance.

1993-VG30E-GXE

Jildon, I've been doing some experimenting. (I don't know how rust works exactly), but even when you cover it with paint, I'm pretty sure it's still rusting from within. Think about it this way - you cover it with rust paint, then you notice 1 yr later it's bubbling or starting to show through the paint? I would think that because the air isn't getting to it, it shouldn't rust, but then it pops up AGAIN?

I've been experimenting with different types of greases and what i've found is that the oil & grease may be the best effort to slow the rust.

We'll see though - it's very hard in Canada to find something that will stand up to the constant slush, salt spray here. Conventional grease (lithium soap base) or oil just comes off when the slush freezes to the metal then thaws or falls off...(wet snow being thrown up into the wheel well) I am going to test this crazy mining grease (barium base) I have, that appears to stick like glue.

300zmax

Rust is a chemical reaction between water oxidizing metal. when salt is present this reaction is sped up like 100 times. this is why i was told never ever buy a car from Canada or a beach town no mater how rare it is. the only way to stop rust 95 % is to cut or grind it out completely. replace the metal or lead the metal and put the rust converter on prior to painting. some work great with paint. Permatex rust treatment. Works like naval jelly but leaves a paintable polymer coating and does not need to be rinsed. Comes in brush-on and spray. I used the brush-on. seems to work OK. i have leaded grind holes in bodies for years and it alway looks flawless. but dont use lead in large holes. get sheet metal. 20 ga about 9 out of 10 times is the best.

also some greases are hydroscopic. meaning they absorb water like brake fluid does

antti

First of all,sorry if my terms and grammar isnt the best,but I'll try.
I felt like this is something I must reply on. You need a little of training to see the whole picture.But you have a great project to start gaining it. There is really no way to learn how to weld but doing it. Of course theory is good to know.

Before you start,make sure there is nothing flammable inside or outside the car. Carpets and stuff need to go if youre going to weld the floor.

What you really want to do is get ALL of the rust out. There is no such option as "hiding it" .That way you dont need to worry in near future.And youll always find more of it,I'll bet ya.You may see just a few spots,but if there really is just few,then I call you lucky.

Remember before you start,that bare steel will rust! So paint the areas youve done when you call it a day,it'll save you from extra work. Trust me.

Get a GOOD gas MIG welder. You save lot of nerves if you buy a truly good one,and also it lasts years and years.I prefer Kemppi welding machines,and I owe Kempomat 2100. It is maybe a little too big for thin steel,but it can handle it. Second,you need lots and lots of time. Welding thin steel is maybe the hardest welding operation if you have no experience. Many think that it is easy and fast operation,but it is not. Even little spots can take hours of work. Try to take as much of rust out without replacing metal as you can,with a "sand blower" or ?grinding? machine(I have no idea what it is called in English).. For the tight corners,use blower.

If you need to replace spots,look for the easiest way. I mean,usually bigger part are easier. Remember to replace as much as you need at once,so you dont have to weld spot next to spot next to spot.Although,sometimes you need use your imagination to get the new piece of metal look like the old one especially if you dont have good equipment for modifying steel. Find the easiest place and position to weld,it will save your head from exploding once again.

This is so big area that I cant just tell you everything. But lets sum the few facts:

1.Dont hide rust,it'll get worse.Get rid of it.All of it.
2.Dont set your car on fire.
3.It is not a quick job.Welding takes time and nerves.
4.Gas welding machine.
5.Bigger areas at once=easier.
6.Bare steel rusts. Cover it with paint or something.
7.Remember to use mask!!! This is a point I really cant underline too much. I've welded many times without one,and you really know it when going to sleep. Try once,and you know what Im talking about. I think its called snow blindness. Also if you decide to try,get ready for looking like a mummy for few days.Your skin will fall off if you weld too long without proper coverage.

AceofSpds

iTrader: (4)

ive found the best thing to clean rust is naval jelly, that stuff works insanely well

1993-VG30E-GXE

Thanks Antti for those tips. I'll take a look at those MIG units, but for me I mainly have access to Miller, Lincoln, Hobart, Thermal Arc, & ESAB...I don't see that brand you speak of. For doing basic rust work, can I get away with an economy MIG package. The one I'm looking at is 115V, Current Range: 30-135 A, 88 A Rated Output at 20% Duty Cycle. It's approx. $600.00. It's described as "Single Phase, gas / no gas MIG welder, Step Voltage Adj., Stepless Wire Speed Adjustment....suitable for mild steel and mild alloy steel welding.

Basically, what's a typical lower cost (this MIG stuff isn't cheap - and don't have boat loads of money to spend on something I'll rarely use) setup I could get away with to do the rust work.

antti

If those are your options,I would most likely go with ESAB. If youre going to use it for smaller than ~3mm steel,then you can stick with a "weak power/?single phase?" version. For anything bigger I suggest getting a bigger one.I would maybe choose one from the ESAB MIGmaster series.One of the smaller ones is good for you. Our Kemppi gives out something about 210A at 20% maybe.

The choice you showed is good for basic rustwork,but thats about it. If I were you,I would save money so that I had enough to buy a goog MIG,so it would serve me for the next two decades. But you need to think about whats going to happen in the near future. If you know that youre not going to weld anything thicker steel,then buy that small one. It really is up to you.

sifa123

you also might find a TIG welder handy to melt some silicon-bronze. it's very useful for filling in areas that do not need a whole piece of tin--but still have a lot of holes. you can just melt the sil-bronze rod with the tig. It's kinda like spackle for metal.

Jobi

Hmmm, looks like I'm going to have to try this, my hood has been rusting away ='(

96blackmaxSE

iTrader: (30)

I just bought some of this to use on the bottom of my rear door...

Has anyone ever heard of this and/or used it? experience?

1993-VG30E-GXE

I haven't used that one, but I've used the one by Rustoleum brand called RUST REFORMER. They are probably similar. These things are like primers sort of. You only coat it lightly then let it dry as instructions...then cover with industrial enamel for best protection. You could also try that POR stuff that guys use around here - I haven't tried it yet.

One thing about the rust converter though, the rust area needs to be wire wheeled or sanded down to get the loose crap off, then clean it with paint thinner and let it dry or use a blow gun on it to dry it fast...then coat it. If you just spray over the rust area without prepping it, it won't stick on well.

96nismoSE

iTrader: (2)

Yeah Ive used it. It works alright just make sure you get off as much rust as you possibly can. It sprays clear but when it dries it turns black but only in the rust. Its pretty neat.

doublea

iTrader: (7)

If you want to do a long lasting job, I would suggest that you clean the crap sandblasting as much as you can, aluminum oxyde is one of the best media if not the best to remove rust and foremost you can re-use it over and over, just buy a filter and you can re-use the alu/oxyde. Once this is done you will have to take care of the metal sheet to cover hole and replace panel. I have always prefer to use and oxy/acetylene and bronze to solder the metal sheet. A cheap mig will give you a ride for your money and will make you swear. a Tig welder will do a much better job but I see you dont have much experience with welding so the oxy/acety with bronze might be a better option, been there done that. Once the car has been rust clean, you want to seal the metal so the rust process it stop and doesn't start again, and formost will last until you prime/paint the car, so for that I used PPG DX579, this stuff is not given but trust me it work and will remove all contaminent wich is one of the key in car painting preparation. Like someone said use and epoxy base primer, also forget about those product in spray can, if you want to do a nice job do dont cut corner and the result will be great. If you have questions dont hesitate to ask I'd be more than happy to help.

Good luck with the project.

Negafen

Welcome to hell.

I can only give you one tip, learn to fiberglass really well for difficult sections, and to weld for straight sections.

Cut rust out with an angle grinder, weld/fiber in a new part.

Rust correction takes ages upon ages unless you invest in a very very competent pro level set of tools.

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

my 3rd gen had some nasty rust, just used a angle grinder/mouse sander to take off the rust, Bondo, filler, primer, paint, clearcoat. rear passenger fender was eaten through, just made up some metal and its all good

someone worked with me through it though and now i can fix rust myself

ivorton23

Im just going to take mine to a shop. my car's rocker panels and rear wheel arches are really rusted out. I'll just save up some cash and have my cars body overhauled.

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

i was going to do that too but a shop quoted me at LEAST $1500-$2000 for a basic fix on mine, me and another person did mine for $1000 in supplies, probably $300 got returned for what we never used, and i just gave the guy a couple hundred dollars in dinner gift certificates

hugest plus is that i can fix rust myself now. its really not that tough, just time consuming

ivorton23

i'd probably fix it myself if i knew how to weld n stuff...i aint got no choice but to send it to a body shop.

Porky

Chrome would you happen to have any photos of your work so I can see? Also those quarter panels near the back, where the gas filler door is, are those one piece with the roof, or is the roof separate? I don't see any joint where the roof is, unless they did a good job in the factory with painting.

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

i have pics of what it looks like now, but i didnt take any before/during the process.

and i dont think the pieces up to the roof are separate, on the opposite side of the gas filler side is where i had the worst rust (straight from the bottom of the rear wheel well to back bumper). thats the quarter panel thats connected to the roof, i just had to remove the rust (which was NASTY, explained in a second). i just got all the rust off (eaten through parts came off all the way), made up sheet metal, installed it with rivets, Bondo'd it, filled any holes in the Bondo, primed, painted, and clearcoated. getting the rivets and curving the metal, probably a pound of rust debris/dust was constantly falling out.

really, it was the goddam mud guards that caused most of it, the rust started around the screws in them and it spread from there. the passenger side rear wheel well also had another eaten through part near the top, just grabbed a metal L bar, curved it to the shape of the fender, and Bondo'd over it.

my windshield leaked as well, it was rusting where the roof and windshield met and was bubbling badly as well, and water was leaking in and the previous owner i guess siliconed OVER the rust. took the rust off properly and reasealed it.

4 spots have come back from over winter, both rear door corners (not surprising at all, common 3rd gen problem area), drivers rear wheel well has some surface which will be easy to fix again, and the passenger side eaten through part under the rear quarter panel again. it will always come back, but now its just surface rust, and repairing it this year should take only a weekend.

funniest thing of all was a guy hit my passenger rear door leaving a dent and blue streak, got quoted at $1500. felt sorry for him, said just give me $500 cash, then thought whatever just $200 cash i think it was. was honest and left his insurance card and i was parked and gone so he could have just left. took literally 5 minutes and maybe $5 in supplies to fix it. just used a Bondo dent puller to unpop the slight dent, sanded away the blue paint, put Bondo over it, and painted it.

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

in the 3rd gen section, check out ColombianMax's thread, he is replacing the rear corner panel with a clean one, the room and side are not separate, you have to cut the quarter panel off

James92SE

iTrader: (31)

http://forums.maxima.org/3rd-generat...-rust-0-a.html

I did it both ways. One side I cut and welded in a new panel and the other I used POR-15

Porky

I always wondered this looking at mine. Is the quarter panel welded in the factory to the roof, or was it one piece? Mine looks so smooth at the top, I can't see any weld mark.

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

i think its one piece isnt it?

going to fix my rust again soon i hate rust so goddam much

EDIT- James i thought the blue 3rd gen in your sig on the right was a S13 Silvia for a second until i saw 4 doors

Porky

Rust is a pain. I'm thinking instead of patching any rust, doing what this guy did is easier in the end. I'd be curious what he paid for it.

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

really though the first time with the rust is the worst, over winter some surface rust may come back but you just need to sand it. first time you may need a angle grinder for bad rust

i would like to keep a pair of quarter panels myself just incase, but like most junkyards the one by me is when you bringing in power tools, plus most cars there have worse rust than i ever had i might call up the Nissan junkyard and see if the guy has any 3rd gens, those guys will let you bring any tools and they will rip parts off for you

Porky

I'm thinking of buying it in the US where there's less salt. Chrome, do you know if any aftermarket companies make the rocker panels for the 3rd gen?

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

i dont think any do, basically the only aftermarket body parts you can find now are wings and bodykits

shavedmax

iTrader: (6)

2 yrs later.......................outcome?

Porky

Chrome: I need to start some of that rust work soon. There's not too much of it, but I've got a question for you. Is there some way to put rustproofing oil under the roof panel somehow to prevent the scenario you had with the bubbling around the windshield? Also what about the doors. Can we somehow coat the insides of the doors with rustproofing oil.

Right now there is no bubbling on mine (roof-to-windshield), but I want to prevent it from happening as i've seen that on alot of 3rd gens.

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

im not sure about any oil, but i would maybe just make sure the seal between the roof and the windshield is strong because if debris gets in the seal and moisture sits there, youre gonna get rust. thats why that one gen of Chevy Malibu all, and i mean literally 80% of the ones here have rust below the gas cap. bad design, debris would sit in the gas cap and along comes snow/moisture and you get rust.

Pete the Sneak

I painted the underside of a Datsun 280Z with POR15 7 years ago. No rust showing through, yet. It is a great system. If you follow there guidlines to a T then it really works.
I also agree about getting a good welder. I replaced floor pans with a crappy one and it was a major headache. I now have a Lincoln welder with gas, and feel like a welding god when I use it. I was worth every penny.