Headers anyone...? (merged with same thread from 4th gen forum)
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,549
Emax-
Did you remove your old headers from your 4th gen? I'm curious to how insane the rear manifold will be.
Brian-
I think most of us would like to see a comparo dyno plot of your car (or some other 4th gen 5 speed) with a y-pipe vs the headers.
Dave
Did you remove your old headers from your 4th gen? I'm curious to how insane the rear manifold will be.
Brian-
I think most of us would like to see a comparo dyno plot of your car (or some other 4th gen 5 speed) with a y-pipe vs the headers.
Dave
Originally posted by SprintMax
what if i just want headers and no y pipe? i just want to make that clear...
what if i just want headers and no y pipe? i just want to make that clear...
I dont think so...
Good question. The two manifold pieces do what the stock manifolds do, bring the primaries together into a collector. The secondaries replace the Y-pipe, running from the headers to the catalytic convertor. The header sections can't be configured properly if a stock Y-pipe is used.
If there's a "good news, bad news" aspect to this, its that the headers work great, but can't be used with a Y-pipe (stock or performance).
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
If there's a "good news, bad news" aspect to this, its that the headers work great, but can't be used with a Y-pipe (stock or performance).
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
All YOUR grammer belong to me
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,400
Cattman,
Why are you only going to make longtube headers? What about making shorty headers for people who already have Y-pipes and can't afford to replace the whole thing? I also completely agree with what Erica was saying.
Why are you only going to make longtube headers? What about making shorty headers for people who already have Y-pipes and can't afford to replace the whole thing? I also completely agree with what Erica was saying.
All YOUR grammer belong to me
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,400
Originally posted by MAXIN
I dont think so...
I dont think so...
Originally posted by Cattman
You'd be welcome to buy a set and try them out, it would be so cool if they fit the VE30DE too. ;-) Remember that they not only have to fit to the engine, but the outlet end needs to be positioned exactly where the end of your Y-pipe is now.
All of that said, however, I just remembered that the company that developed these also makes a version for the A31 (gen3) but that may be for the VG30E.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
You'd be welcome to buy a set and try them out, it would be so cool if they fit the VE30DE too. ;-) Remember that they not only have to fit to the engine, but the outlet end needs to be positioned exactly where the end of your Y-pipe is now.
All of that said, however, I just remembered that the company that developed these also makes a version for the A31 (gen3) but that may be for the VG30E.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Hmmm...Could you do one thing? Compare the Y pipe Flanges on the 4th and VE 3rd gen when you get a chance? to see if that matches...if so, then we will be looking good and just need to see if they bolt to the block.
Originally posted by Craig Mack
I bet all the other companies who "claim" to make headers for the Max such as OBX aren't going to include a y-pipe in them. So it's probubly possible to make them w/o the y.
I bet all the other companies who "claim" to make headers for the Max such as OBX aren't going to include a y-pipe in them. So it's probubly possible to make them w/o the y.
The header sections can't be configured properly if a stock Y-pipe is used
Tax time is here baby.
Originally posted by carnal_c30
let us know the pricing!!
what would be the size of the piping that would 'replace' the Y? any options for boosed people?
Good work!
let us know the pricing!!
what would be the size of the piping that would 'replace' the Y? any options for boosed people?
Good work!
Tubing diameter on the secondaries (after both headers have come together) is a full 2.5" (no narrower flex section or other diameters). This should be work well with boosted engines.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Originally posted by spanishrice
Brian will this be the top and bottom part of the header, or will you have to use the stock y-pipe. I got confused on what you were saying. I don't get why you could not is an aftermaket y-pipe. So you replace everything. I mean theres companys that are making headers for Maxima, will they show the same results. I mean that one guy bought headers from new zealand and gained one horsepower. What did you differently to gain 10 horses more.
Brian will this be the top and bottom part of the header, or will you have to use the stock y-pipe. I got confused on what you were saying. I don't get why you could not is an aftermaket y-pipe. So you replace everything. I mean theres companys that are making headers for Maxima, will they show the same results. I mean that one guy bought headers from new zealand and gained one horsepower. What did you differently to gain 10 horses more.
I cannot explain why other tests have generated the results that they have. The results obtained a couple years ago with the NZ headers are particularly puzzling -- there is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't have been better. I just made sure that my tests were done properly/objectively and I stand by those numbers.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Originally posted by redmaxpa007
i would love this... this will help .."un cali spec" the car..
let us know brian
i would love this... this will help .."un cali spec" the car..
let us know brian
I think these will be particularly useful for "un cali spec-ing", though as I note I believe it will require an additional O2 sensor port.
Could someone confirm the locations of all four O2 sensors on the 1999-2001 CA/NLEV cars? As I recall, there's one in each manifold and two in the Y-pipe. Is that correct?
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Originally posted by SprintMax
what if i just want headers and no y pipe? i just want to make that clear...
what if i just want headers and no y pipe? i just want to make that clear...
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Re: Headers anyone?
Originally posted by Cattman
I'd also note that the "average horsepower" is a very useful comparative figure. You could have a modification that spiked the power at upper rpms but not have a large effect on horsepower across the rpm range.
I'd also note that the "average horsepower" is a very useful comparative figure. You could have a modification that spiked the power at upper rpms but not have a large effect on horsepower across the rpm range.
I'm glad someone else thinks average horsepower is meaningful! Thanks for continuing to make products for the max and provide us with qualitative data to support your products. Nicely done.
Originally posted by BBaker025
GREAT! You all at Cattman amaze me with all of the new products you keep coming out with. Be sure to make alot because you will get alot of orders for them. Cant wait till they are released
GREAT! You all at Cattman amaze me with all of the new products you keep coming out with. Be sure to make alot because you will get alot of orders for them. Cant wait till they are released
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Originally posted by Craig Mack
Cattman,
Why are you only going to make longtube headers? What about making shorty headers for people who already have Y-pipes and can't afford to replace the whole thing? I also completely agree with what Erica was saying.
Cattman,
Why are you only going to make longtube headers? What about making shorty headers for people who already have Y-pipes and can't afford to replace the whole thing? I also completely agree with what Erica was saying.
Another very significant factor is that to carry through the concept of equal length tubing, current stock or aftermarket Y-pipes make that impossible. The lack of equal length secondaries isn't an issue with a Y-pipe since the exhaust streams are getting scrambled in the stock manifolds anyway, but when you have equal length primaries, it would be self-defeating if the secondaries not of equal length. The "Y-pipe" section of this header system has a full-circle "donut" built into the secondary tube of the back headers and I feel it is a critical part of the design.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Originally posted by dmontzmax
Hmmm...Could you do one thing? Compare the Y pipe Flanges on the 4th and VE 3rd gen when you get a chance? to see if that matches...if so, then we will be looking good and just need to see if they bolt to the block.
Hmmm...Could you do one thing? Compare the Y pipe Flanges on the 4th and VE 3rd gen when you get a chance? to see if that matches...if so, then we will be looking good and just need to see if they bolt to the block.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Originally posted by MAXIN
Yes but will they work "correctly" as in substantial gains?
-- Cattman
Yes but will they work "correctly" as in substantial gains?
-- Cattman
See my more detailed comments in a preceding message on this. In short, the Y-pipe element in this header system has equal length secondaries and no other Y-pipe is designed this way (in my opinion, they don't need to be unless a header is involved). I would not want to eliminate this aspect of the design. It seems like it would certainly impact the performance gains.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Originally posted by Cattman
You would need to custom fabricate a Y-pipe. To my knowledge, the only Y-pipe that will fit between the headers and the catalytic convertor is the one that is typically a part of this kit. Looks like yoy're running turbo, so there would be some custom adaptation anyway.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
You would need to custom fabricate a Y-pipe. To my knowledge, the only Y-pipe that will fit between the headers and the catalytic convertor is the one that is typically a part of this kit. Looks like yoy're running turbo, so there would be some custom adaptation anyway.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
i am not really concerned with the connection to cat.. i am concerned about the connection from the engine to the y pipe.. one of the bolts on my headers is gone.. so it would be great for me to just upgrade to something that flows better
Junior Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 27
I know a lot of you guys are sceptical because of the tests with the NZ headers. Common sense tells you though that true equal length headers will flow better than a cast iron long style manifold.
My 2000 Formula Firebird came stock with the best flowing cast iron manifolds ever for an LS1, but the equal length Hooker Long Tube headers I put on still upped me at least 30hp. I dropped 3 tenths at the dragstrip and gained 3mph from them.
I'd guess headers alone would give a 15hp increase.
My 2000 Formula Firebird came stock with the best flowing cast iron manifolds ever for an LS1, but the equal length Hooker Long Tube headers I put on still upped me at least 30hp. I dropped 3 tenths at the dragstrip and gained 3mph from them.
I'd guess headers alone would give a 15hp increase.
Originally posted by Cattman
I think these will be particularly useful for "un cali spec-ing", though as I note I believe it will require an additional O2 sensor port.
I think these will be particularly useful for "un cali spec-ing", though as I note I believe it will require an additional O2 sensor port.
Could someone confirm the locations of all four O2 sensors on the 1999-2001 CA/NLEV cars? As I recall, there's one in each manifold and two in the Y-pipe. Is that correct?
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
yes brian, that is correct.
Originally posted by Dave B
Emax-
Did you remove your old headers from your 4th gen? I'm curious to how insane the rear manifold will be.
Dave
Emax-
Did you remove your old headers from your 4th gen? I'm curious to how insane the rear manifold will be.
Dave
Originally posted by guido_sst
I still don't see why everyone is so excited about these when we really haven't seen anything! When I see some comparative dyno plots on the same or similar cars, I'll start considering these.
I still don't see why everyone is so excited about these when we really haven't seen anything! When I see some comparative dyno plots on the same or similar cars, I'll start considering these.
This sounds great, except the cost of labor, stupid Max!
But I would like to see prices, or an estimate. I am going to have to fork out alot for labor, I don't want to break my wallet with the headers also.
But I would like to see prices, or an estimate. I am going to have to fork out alot for labor, I don't want to break my wallet with the headers also.
Re: Headers anyone?
Originally posted by Cattman
I haven't said anything about this project because I wanted to do the testing first, but I'm quite pleased to report that I've put a beautiful set of prototype headers on my 97 Maxima and they make some pretty good power. And they sound incredible!
Here's the basic information...
Test car: 1997 Maxima 5 speed, 103,000 miles on a well used engine that's a little weak and a bit past its prime (as indicated by its relatively low "before" dyno run); baseline measurements taken with a JWT intake, Cattman Cattback exhaust and a stock Y-pipe.
Baseline run w/ stock Y-pipe: 167.5 max hp @ 5000rpm; 182.6 max torque @ 4000; avg hp 132.2 from 2300-6100 rpm; elapsed time 10.32 seconds from 2300-6100 rpm
Run w/ prototype headers: 183.9 max hp @ 5000rpm; 197.5 max torque @ 4600; avg hp 143.1 from 2300-6100 rpm; elapsed time 9.83 seconds from 2300-6100 rpm
Although the difference in maximum hp is 16.5 (about 20hp at the crank) and in maximum torque is 14.9 (about 18 ft/lb at the crank), the largest differences between the two runs are 18.6hp @ 5400rpm (about 22.5hp at the crank) and 18.5 ft/lb at 4800rpm (about 22.4 ft/lb at the crank).
I'd also note that the "average horsepower" is a very useful comparative figure. You could have a modification that spiked the power at upper rpms but not have a large effect on horsepower across the rpm range. These headers increase the average horsepower by 10.9, which is a BIG impact that indicates that the increases in power occur significantly across the entire rpm range, not just in some concentrated range.
Based on my experience, figuring all other things being equal (and noting this is a very well-used engine, burns some oil, etc.), I'd say these headers make about 25% more power than a performance Y-pipe.
I don't know what the price will be for a set or exactly when they'll be available. They'll be somewhat more expensive than a Y-pipe, but not a lot because they will probably be made from mild steel (rather than stainless) to keep the cost down. Given that my set took an experienced mechanic about 6 hours to install, installation will obviously be more expensive.
Oh yeah, the sound... These aren't louder than a Y-pipe, but they sound sweeter due to the equal length primary and secondary tubing -- much more melodious and without the slight harshness in tone that Y-pipes have under heavy accelleration. I'm not kidding, it really makes the car sound cool.
I have a typical DynoJet graph as well as the table printouts (at 100rpm intervals). Also have an Excel spreadsheet containing the two runs for analysis purposes. Will be happy to send copies to any who inquire (contact me directly at bcatts@xtra.co.nz).
No chance to look into this yet, but these headers should be useable on the 1999-2001 CA/NLEV engines too, though it may be necessary to add an exhaust sensor someplace. It not impossible that they might work on the VQ35DE too, we'll see.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
I haven't said anything about this project because I wanted to do the testing first, but I'm quite pleased to report that I've put a beautiful set of prototype headers on my 97 Maxima and they make some pretty good power. And they sound incredible!
Here's the basic information...
Test car: 1997 Maxima 5 speed, 103,000 miles on a well used engine that's a little weak and a bit past its prime (as indicated by its relatively low "before" dyno run); baseline measurements taken with a JWT intake, Cattman Cattback exhaust and a stock Y-pipe.
Baseline run w/ stock Y-pipe: 167.5 max hp @ 5000rpm; 182.6 max torque @ 4000; avg hp 132.2 from 2300-6100 rpm; elapsed time 10.32 seconds from 2300-6100 rpm
Run w/ prototype headers: 183.9 max hp @ 5000rpm; 197.5 max torque @ 4600; avg hp 143.1 from 2300-6100 rpm; elapsed time 9.83 seconds from 2300-6100 rpm
Although the difference in maximum hp is 16.5 (about 20hp at the crank) and in maximum torque is 14.9 (about 18 ft/lb at the crank), the largest differences between the two runs are 18.6hp @ 5400rpm (about 22.5hp at the crank) and 18.5 ft/lb at 4800rpm (about 22.4 ft/lb at the crank).
I'd also note that the "average horsepower" is a very useful comparative figure. You could have a modification that spiked the power at upper rpms but not have a large effect on horsepower across the rpm range. These headers increase the average horsepower by 10.9, which is a BIG impact that indicates that the increases in power occur significantly across the entire rpm range, not just in some concentrated range.
Based on my experience, figuring all other things being equal (and noting this is a very well-used engine, burns some oil, etc.), I'd say these headers make about 25% more power than a performance Y-pipe.
I don't know what the price will be for a set or exactly when they'll be available. They'll be somewhat more expensive than a Y-pipe, but not a lot because they will probably be made from mild steel (rather than stainless) to keep the cost down. Given that my set took an experienced mechanic about 6 hours to install, installation will obviously be more expensive.
Oh yeah, the sound... These aren't louder than a Y-pipe, but they sound sweeter due to the equal length primary and secondary tubing -- much more melodious and without the slight harshness in tone that Y-pipes have under heavy accelleration. I'm not kidding, it really makes the car sound cool.
I have a typical DynoJet graph as well as the table printouts (at 100rpm intervals). Also have an Excel spreadsheet containing the two runs for analysis purposes. Will be happy to send copies to any who inquire (contact me directly at bcatts@xtra.co.nz).
No chance to look into this yet, but these headers should be useable on the 1999-2001 CA/NLEV engines too, though it may be necessary to add an exhaust sensor someplace. It not impossible that they might work on the VQ35DE too, we'll see.
Brian C Catts
Cattman Performance
Hey Brian, that one nice surprise, let us know when available, cuz spring will be knocking at the door in 3 months, and the mods fever is already giving my some scratching disease.
Cheers
AA
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Posts: n/a
Originally posted by spanishrice
This sounds great, except the cost of labor, stupid Max! But I would like to see prices, or an estimate. I am going to have to fork out alot for labor, I don't want to break my wallet with the headers also.
This sounds great, except the cost of labor, stupid Max!
But I would like to see prices, or an estimate. I am going to have to fork out alot for labor, I don't want to break my wallet with the headers also.
Am I the only one here not totally enamored with this idea?
Unless I am understanding this incorrectly, these were tested stock Y vs Headers. The true measure of these headers worth will be seen in a Y-pipe vs Headers. I'm honestly surprised that you didn't test this way when you tested these headers. We all know that replacing the Y-pipe gives huge gains on the max, the unknown factor is the manifolds. Of course these headers gave great gains over stock, they replace the stock Y pipe!!! My question is do they give substantial gains over a Y-pipe, to justify the extra cost and even more importantly, the extra 6 hours or so of labor (whether that be at a shop or doing it one's self.)
I just want to make this clear, this is not Cattman bashing. I have a Cattman SS Y-pipe and it's got close to 70K miles on it and it still running strong, none of this flex section mess or any problems like that. It's still as good as the day I purchased it.
Unless I am understanding this incorrectly, these were tested stock Y vs Headers. The true measure of these headers worth will be seen in a Y-pipe vs Headers. I'm honestly surprised that you didn't test this way when you tested these headers. We all know that replacing the Y-pipe gives huge gains on the max, the unknown factor is the manifolds. Of course these headers gave great gains over stock, they replace the stock Y pipe!!! My question is do they give substantial gains over a Y-pipe, to justify the extra cost and even more importantly, the extra 6 hours or so of labor (whether that be at a shop or doing it one's self.)
I just want to make this clear, this is not Cattman bashing. I have a Cattman SS Y-pipe and it's got close to 70K miles on it and it still running strong, none of this flex section mess or any problems like that. It's still as good as the day I purchased it.
Originally posted by Nealoc187
Am I the only one here not totally enamored with this idea?
Unless I am understanding this incorrectly, these were tested stock Y vs Headers. The true measure of these headers worth will be seen in a Y-pipe vs Headers. I'm honestly surprised that you didn't test this way when you tested these headers. We all know that replacing the Y-pipe gives huge gains on the max, the unknown factor is the manifolds. Of course these headers gave great gains over stock, they replace the stock Y pipe!!! My question is do they give substantial gains over a Y-pipe, to justify the extra cost and even more importantly, the extra 6 hours or so of labor (whether that be at a shop or doing it one's self.)
I just want to make this clear, this is not Cattman bashing. I have a Cattman SS Y-pipe and it's got close to 70K miles on it and it still running strong, none of this flex section mess or any problems like that. It's still as good as the day I purchased it.
Am I the only one here not totally enamored with this idea?
Unless I am understanding this incorrectly, these were tested stock Y vs Headers. The true measure of these headers worth will be seen in a Y-pipe vs Headers. I'm honestly surprised that you didn't test this way when you tested these headers. We all know that replacing the Y-pipe gives huge gains on the max, the unknown factor is the manifolds. Of course these headers gave great gains over stock, they replace the stock Y pipe!!! My question is do they give substantial gains over a Y-pipe, to justify the extra cost and even more importantly, the extra 6 hours or so of labor (whether that be at a shop or doing it one's self.)
I just want to make this clear, this is not Cattman bashing. I have a Cattman SS Y-pipe and it's got close to 70K miles on it and it still running strong, none of this flex section mess or any problems like that. It's still as good as the day I purchased it.
good point... thank you for be logical