TMAX [/I][/QUOTE]The logic you guys have simply amazes me.
Are you absolutely positive, that, in TX you can blow someone's head off if he is trying to steal something from your car???[/I][/QUOTE]


NO...it's not a free for all...some may wish to think it is, but it's not.

I wouldn't think twice
 

Work too hard for my Shyt!!! To let some low life scum run off with it. You know, in a dark poorly lite car interior, burgular tools look like pistols sometimes. Don't need Johnny Cochrane to get you off for doing him in that situation. Besides after ventalating his @ss, you can leave your car door open all the time and no one in the hood will within spitting distance of it(word travels fast " don't go near that car, pookie got blasted for trying to steal from it").

Yes. My Texas Gun Owner's Guide and my 3 loaded pistols say yes. ;-)

The gun laws here say I'm allowed to shoot a thief in thet back hopping out of my backyard with my stereo. Of course with lawyers nowadays, I probably wouldn't be able to get away with it.

In all honesty, I'd just have the pistol chambered, gun drawn, finger on the trigger, sights on him and shout out a clear and fair warning.

"An armed society is a polite society" I don't know where I heard it but I like it.

Yes. My Texas Gun Owner's Guide and my 3 loaded pistols say yes. ;-)

The gun laws here say I'm allowed to shoot a thief in the back hopping out of my backyard with my stereo. Of course with lawyers nowadays, I probably wouldn't be able to get away with it in court.

In all honesty, I'd just have the pistol chambered, gun drawn, finger on the trigger, sights on him and shout out a clear and fair warning.

"An armed society is a polite society" I don't know where I heard it but I like it.

btw, Texans are not gun-toting freaks
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jesse

Quote:

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Originally posted by WoodEar
The gun laws here say I'm allowed to shoot a thief in the back hopping out of my backyard with my stereo. Of course with lawyers nowadays, I probably wouldn't be able to get away with it in court.

---

True, and untrue.

True in the fact that in Texas, if you catch a person even ABOUT to vandalize your property, you have the right to protect your property. In Concealed Handgun Licensing class, some go as far to teach that if you're going to shoot somebody, you are better off shooting them dead. Forsenics will prove if you were in the wrong or not, and you know that unloading an entire clip on a person, even a thug, is excessive force. But if you shoot a person once or twice and they end up dying because you caught him or her jacking your wheels, the law is on your side. Now if they lived to sue your ***, the law is still on your side.

Here's where you're wrong about lawyers:
True story, many years ago (when I was still in highschool), my friend was in his girlfriend's house when her dad unecpectedly came home. So the scenario is this - in broad daylight, my friend jumped into another person's backyard - illegal trespassing. My friend jumped back out of that person's backyard and was back on "friendly territory", but was still shot through the fence with a .22. My friend went to a reputable lawyer and he was basically told "It would be hard to prove that you were shot illegally, judges and juries tend to go in the favor of the homeowner. You can give us $3000 to fight for you in court, but in all honesty you will most likely get squat back."

Quote:

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In all honesty, I'd just have the pistol chambered, gun drawn, finger on the trigger, sights on him and shout out a clear and fair warning.

---

My Texas Gun Owner's Guide tells me this is only a Hollywood thing, you haven't been reading your book bro! No shooting in the air for a warning, and no shooting in the foot to "stop" the criminal. If a person gets shot in a non-critical place, the pain doesn't come immediately. This guy is going on adrenaline, and he will most likely kill you with your own gun.

Sorry for the long post. To sum things up, if I busted someone trying to leave my 240SX on cinderblocks, the only thing the cops can get me for is for my unpaid ticket for not having a front license plate.

After reading Al's post, frankly, the only thing I can say is that Texas is a really ****ed up place, take it as a flame if you want.
Damn if one day I ever want to know how killing feels, I will just go open a 7-11 in TX, and shoot the **** out of the kids who try to steal candy.

I guess you didn't understand me. When you take your CCL (Concealed Carry License) class you learn that penal codes authorize shooting to STOP. That means you don't intentionally aim for someone's head. You aim for their center of body mass (torso). You know from hind sight what the guy was doing. In the heat of the moment you don't have that privilege. What I find hard to beleive is why people make excuses and allowances for losers who steal other people's hard earned posessions. And...Texas is a great place to live. Big and spatious with no state tax and a healthy economy. Most of us own firearms so its not a big deal. In states like CA,NY, its a novelty so you get the idiots who want to wave and brandish their "toys".

Again, my $0.02 worth. Later,

TMAX
An armed man is a citizen, an unarmed man is a subject.

Well this is not about understanding, I believe you 100% your class told you that the law grants you to shoot.
My point is the moral behind it, it's sad that a person deserves to be shot(no matter die or not) for stealing some car radio.

So tell me something, can I shoot the kid that steals candy in my store?? Or the TX law actually says if it's older thief you can shoot but not kids/teen, if they steal more expensive stuff you can shoot but not small things like candy...
???

LOL, thats crazy!!!
 

<b>what determines your right to use deadly force??</b> if you can defend your property what do you do if like what Woodear said, a kid steals candy from your store? its your property, so you gonna pull out the shotty and blast him a new a-hole for some Jolly Ranchers??? I know it sounds like a ridiculous statement, but the picture that some of you are painting makes it sound just like that, *click, clack, pow*!!!!

Quit being an extremist Woodear.

No court in Texas will let the store owner get away from blasting a kid for stealing Jolly Ranchers.

And that's why obtaining a CCW permit requires an extensive class and being knowledgeable in gun handling, safety, and marksmanship. They don't just hand out the permits to anybody who had the $.

We're not a bunch of gun toting loons. We just beleive in the right to protect ourselves, family, and property in a responsible fashion. Everybody that's CCW'd (including me once I get the time to take classes) hopes to never draw their gun. It's insurance.

Damn if one day I ever want to know how killing feels, I will just go open a 7-11 in TX, and shoot the **** out of the kids who try to steal candy.

You'd be a terrible candidate for a CCW...hell I wouldn't let you hold my ammo for my itty bitty .22

[Edited by Jesse on 01-08-2001 at 02:40 PM]

I live in texas, and also know some of the laws. I'd like to see where it's stated that you can shoot someone on public property having removed your personal belongings from your personal property. Show me the actual law that allows this to occur without being in violation.

I'm not an expert, but if you are going to act on a law such as this, then you should know exactly the in's and out's. Does this course give you all the information regarding this type of action? Every detail? Most who believe these issues, would never be in a situation to find out. Better be careful of your actions...you'll have to answer to them ....at least someday.

I'm not trying to argue or anything, but....
 

my friend was shot 4 times in the back, by a cop cause the cop said he was making threatening movements..well that cop was found guilty of murder since there were so many witnesses aginst his story, even his partner. <b>Well guess what he was put through the police academy just like every other cop and was trained to determine when and when not to use deadly force(more than those classes will ever teach you), but what happen he didn't make the right decision and used force in the wrong situation!!!! what I'm trying to say is, people can go to all the classes they want, but whats to say they don't know when and when not to use deadly force??</b> IMO, thats pure anarchy, cause we gotta be afraid of the cops to begin with, now we gotta fear our neighbor whos packing the shotty by his sofa.....

I don't want to get into the whole argument of when it's "right" to use deadly force. "Right" and "having the right" are two completely different things.

The thing I said about shooting to kill. It will benefit in most scenarios to not have some raging lunatic come after you with a knife, or to avoid any future litigation... but it's not my advertisement to go kill.

Anyway, the crime rate did NOT go up after legalizing Concealed Handguns. In fact, violent crimes and crimes in general are on a slight decline in our state. Fact of the matter is, if that 20-year old lady looks like she wouldn't put up a fight so maybe it'll be okay to grab her purse... oh but wait, she might be packing a small Glock!

Texas may look scary to a lot of outsiders, but Texans fear California emissions! I love the fact that I will be able to put the Silvia motor from a PS13 into my S14 and not worry about getting busted. And since I'm not going to steal anyone's radio, I have a better chance of not getting capped.

It has nothing to be with being extreme.

I am just puzzled, I can't picture the TX law actually state:
Upon approaching the thief who is stealing your property, make your best judgement to determine the value of goods he is stealing, if it's a rather large amount and the thief looks a bad guy, shoot him. If it's something small and the thief looks rather innocent, do not shoot.
???
Would you explain?

About the CCW permit and etc, I do believe most of you people are civil and will make decision wisely. My point is how you figure that your risk of losing something material grant you the right to damage other's body phisically and even risk to take his life??
I mean, in other states, a theif that's caught will never get death penalty even thought he steals something very valuable. But a murderer might get death penalty in certian states. Why is that? Because of the scale of the crime they commit, bottom line is a thief doesn't deserve to get shot, simple as that.

That's what I have my dogs for
 

Well I guess im neutral on this, sometime the thought of it just makes me mad cause I have been the victim of thieves to parts on my vehicle several times....here in Chicago we use the term "raped" cause that's what happens someone violates your privacy and then exploit it for whatever they deem necessary. But as far as killing, I don't think I will go that far just for the fact that it is material and not knowing if it's a kid or a crackhead does make a difference, I wouldn't want to live with the guilt of shooting a kid and plus my radio is not worth a life, that's why I breed nice American bulldogs that at a drop of a leash would have caught him in the woods or not and would him grabbed his *** and held him til the cops came, gun or not it's hard to hit a moving target, especially one u fear...So I would have let my dogs loose instead of the shells of the Ruger p89 only time i feel that is necessary if someone is in my house hell with the property outside it.....

It would fall under Crime Prevention, Self-Defense, Protectin of Property.

Thief is running out of your house with your stuff, you shoot him right as he steps on the street. You'll have a case. You chase him down 5 city blocks firing like a moron and hit him, perhaps kiilling him. Hell no.

So let me ask you:

When someone is stealing my $15 basketball on my lawn, can I shoot?
When someone is stealing my $300 bicycle on my lawn, can I shoot?
When someone is stealing my $1000 radio in car, can I shoot?
When someone is stealing my $15000 Maxima in my driveway, can I shoot?
When someone is stealing my $250k Ferrari in my driveway, can I use a rocket launcher?

Where exactly do you draw the line? and according to what?

Texas law and CCW training will tell you to use the gun as a LAST RESORT MEASURE. So obviously, no matter what the guy is stealing, you give him a chance to stop. If you really feel your life or somebody elses life is in danger, by all means protect yourself, family, loved ones. The courses actually train you to back down alot in many confrontational situations. Only when backing down will still result in you getting hurt/killed, then you draw your gun.

Yes, it's a tough decision, one that nobody would ever like to make, but at least we'll be able to defend if forced to. And that's why like I said, the permit isn't just handed out to anybody with an itchy trigger finger. It's a right, but also a huge responsibility that not everybody can handle.

>>> It would fall under Crime Prevention, Self-Defense, Protectin of Property.

Self defense???
Damn, TX must have different definition for self-defense, I don't see how it can be self-defense when your life is not under threat. The guy was stealing some radio inside a car for crying out loud.

Too vague. Some punk steals a basketball from my lawn in broad daylight. Of course not. Anybody with the common sense of rock mold will know not to. If some punk is stealing a basket ball from my lawn and it's midnight, and I have no idea what he's doing lurking around my lawn, I probably wouldn't shoot him either. I'd have my peice in hand ready to defend myself since I don't know what's behind the door.

All those things are covered in the training. So instead of being gun ignorant, perhaps you should do a little research instead of of criticizing something you're not informed about?

Wait wait wait.
Do I see a changing of subject???

The reason we were talking here, is that, several people here seem to have the metality of "I am in TX, law grants me to shoot, so if the guy is in my car stealing my things, shoot him". This I disagree.
Now it seems you are saying, "warn him if he is stealing, but if he comes at you like a mag dog, shoot him". This I agree 100%, but unfortunately was never the subject.

This coming from a person whose quote goes like,

"if you can't beat them arrange to have them beaten"

Anyways, I'm tired of this thread, I've stated my opinions and some facts about Texas gun laws. Don't like them, don't commit a crime against a Texan gunowner on his property at night.

Well...if you've read my posts...nowhere did I ever have the mentality of shoot first, ask questions later. My inital post, yes...but that was in a joking/sarcastic tone, which I cleared up with following posts.

Ok...so I think we agree...I think :-\

>>> Too vague. Some punk steals a basketball from my lawn in broad daylight. Of course not. Anybody with the common sense of rock mold will know not to.

Guess what? Before this conversation I thought that anybody with the common sense of rock mold won't shoot a man stealing $1000 of car parts either. But boy was I wrong!

>>> it's midnight, and I have no idea what he's doing lurking around my lawn, I probably wouldn't shoot him either. I'd have my peice in hand ready to defend myself since I don't know what's behind the door.

You again are talking about different things. It was never about nightime when you are facing potential danger.
Just get to the point please, does the TX law allow you to shoot the guy stealing things inside of your car in daylight or not??? Yes or no.

>>> All those things are covered in the training. So instead of being gun ignorant, perhaps you should do a little research instead of of criticizing something you're not informed about?

So would you show me the law that states you can shoot a thief in daytime???

I know here in TN -->
 

where the gun laws are similar to TX, you basically cannot shoot anyone unless you are being attacked and fear for your life.

As for property, etc:

The perpetrator has to physically be INSIDE the house taking property,etc....not out in your car, not in the yard not even 2mm outside the front door. As our instructor said, if someone uses forcible entry and gets into your home, it is considered threatening and you take care of business. Otherwise, you can't do jack.

As for public, etc:

You can only POINT (let alone shoot) a gun at someone if you (or someone else) are in emminent danger of being hurt. In other words, the perpetrator has to have either a weapon pointed at you or someone else, or they are physically trying to harm you or someone else. Then you can 'take care of business', but this will probably be much messier in court....

Some it all up is to buy an American Bulldog if it's night and he shoots or attempt to shoot your dog as he mauls away at the criminal, then yes U should complete any action u deem necessary to protect your property (and your dog :) ) cant help it I love those dogs............

Just a side note, I am not trying to preach peace because I am not the person who suffering the loss of theft.

Back in June last year, thief broke into my house and stole $40k worth of jewelry. We just came back from an exhibition at Javits convention center, the criminal followed us home and broke in when we went out later, stole 4 cases. It's a very common crime in jewelry business but we just always thought it only happen to big company who carray millions worth of jewelry around.

Anyway, needlessly to say we were pissed. So we were talking about how to prevent this in the future since we exhibition at shows several times per year. I told gf, that next time she should still come back as if nothing happens, then leave after she moves the case inside of house. When the thief comes inside again thru window, he will find me sitting on the sofa with my raffle(yeah I have firearm too).
But then guess what though, I don't think I will have the heart to shoot him, even though he is inside my house compeletely and I can easily tell the cop he was trying to jump me. I just can't bear with the fact I am putting a bullet inside someone's body(fatal or not) over some materail things.

That's it.

No wonder you're able to drag out topics like this. You continue to bring up old stuff that's already been covered.

I'm going to sum it up and go. Gotta get parts from the dealership and it's a nice day outside to do some wrenching.

1) Yes, you can shoot a theif during daytime. In our redmaxima friend's case...it's a no. I already stated a couple of times what I would've done in that specific situation and it was a no fire situation. Got it? Good. But Texas gun law says it is allowable, as with laws though there is a grey area and it's up to the intelligent gun carrying citizens to make the right decision.

2) About me talking about different things about daytime or nighttime with the stupid basketball example. Of course. Rarely are there going to be clear black and white cases. IF you treat them as such, stay away from guns. Don't think about them and you don't have to worry about whether or not you should've shot the intruder. They teach you this in training.

So I think I've covered the "point" many times, not just in this point alone. But to sum it up for you again Chris. YES...you can shoot a man in broad daylight to protect your property. But you better be damned sure that the situations are such that they will hold up for you in court.

This isn't a simple topic, it's not supposed to be. Gun ownership and rights will be trivial. Enough said...I'm outta here.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WoodEar
[I]Actually, you should only fire upon someone only after you have figured out that your life is in danger. But in the case of car owner versus radio thief, who gets the benefit of the doubt?

I bought my gun in hopes that I never need it. Do you buy life insurance and hope to die? Exactly, unless you're a maniac you're not going to buy a gun in hopes to kill somebody.

I, on the other hand, am too attached to my vehicles. If someone's in my car and they're not supposed to be, I get to use my 12 gauge. Mind you, that slugs to the body aren't typically lethal. They're designed to knock a guy back a few feet and break a few ribs.

>>> Actually, you should only fire upon someone only after you have figured out that your life is in danger.

Exactly what I thought.
And the whole time before this, you guys were trying to say the law allows you to shoot, but failed to mention under the senario that your life is in danger.
How funny.

>>> But in the case of car owner versus radio thief, who gets the benefit of the doubt?

You.
You can tell the court that you warn the thief, but he runs out to attack you, so you have to kill him, since he is dead, he won't be there to say anything against it.
But like I said before, it's about the moral behind it. Will you sleep well at night if if you did that?

Damn..I love a good gun debate, but I wasn't paying attention to this post.
 

Anyway...here's my history with guns. I took a CC class in Virginia at the NRA headquarter two years ago. Why? I want to learn more about gun laws and what rights I have. The class included gun safety and there was a lawyer present to answer any questions. One import issue I learned was gun laws are regulated by the state. There is very little federal law to regulate guns. What does this mean?? Each state will have different gun laws and your rights to carry applies only to your own state. You do have to apply for conceal carry license to do so...aleast in VA you do. If you don't, you can't carry concealed. It's against VA statelaw. You have no rights to carry in any another state. If you don't reside in that state, it's nearly impossible to get a permit to carry. The gun can't cross the state boarder. Does't matter if it's in the trunk of the car...etc. This sucks for someone like me that lives in a metro area that span three states. Without a fedral law, it makes impossible for a lawful citizen to carry a gun on him where ever he goes. Few more things I picked up about Texas law when I was in the CC class. Texas is the only state I know you can do the following. This is from what the lawyer said.

1. You can protect material possession with deadly force. ie. You can shoot someone for stealing stuff from you car.

2. You can shoot any stranger that's on your property without permission after dusk.

3. You can shoot any man that's in bed with your wife. I'm serious on the last one.

All these are legal in Texas, pretty much shoot first ask question later situations. They are either in the law book or has precedent in court.

What can I say....Texas is Texas.

[Edited by 1MAX2NV on 01-08-2001 at 06:38 PM]

It's a grey area sort of thing. You have a good chance of "proving" something if you're the "good guy"

Quote:

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You can tell the court that you warn the thief, but he runs out to attack you, so you have to kill him, since he is dead, he won't be there to say anything against it.
But like I said before, it's about the moral behind it. Will you sleep well at night if if you did that?

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I wouldn't be able to sleep after killing a kid who tried to steal a petty item. I'd love the chance to hurt them real bad, if he's smart he'll turn his life around.

Moot points aside, I feel bad for the Maxima dude who confronted his thug. There's really nothing you can do to prevent 100% of all attacks because if they want that radio they're gonna get it.

Re: Damn..I love a good gun debate, but I wasn't paying attention to this post.
 

Wow, I guess it's safe to say:
1) there shall be no thief in TX by now.
2) make sure phone your friend before you visit at night.
3) don't **** other people's wives.

damn, i vote for TX to be an independent country!

hmm
 

Going as far as shooting someone in this kind of case is not right, at least it doesn't sound right to me. However you can use the firearm to threaten the crook.

I have a question about this whole gun thing though,
One time, some *******s were trying to steal Chrome rims off my friends Mazda 626 at like 2 A.M in Brooklyn as it was parked right in front of his house, luckily his dad drives a limo and came home late, saw what those retards were doing, but just didn't pay any attention, came inside and called the cops....

Lets, say... he is a licensed firearm owner, does he have the right to bring it outside of the house, and using it only if he was to be attacked?
Does the law state you can't carry the weapon around or what? i heard someone here keeps a gun in their car, is that legal? Is it legal in NY?

anyone know?

sure, he can hold the gun and go outside and point at them, but he can't shoot unless they attack him. and they can run, you can't shoot either. even cops can't shoot them in the back when they are running away.
you can carry a gun in car with license, but bullet and gun shall be sperated and be in the trunk, if i remember right.

Re: Re: Damn..I love a good gun debate, but I wasn't paying attention to this post.
 

Hey if I came home one day and I found my Girl in bed with another guy ... I would DEFINITLY shoot him, no second thoughts, empty an entire Glock 18 clip! ... either That or scamble his brains with a Louisville Slugger!

As for the Other two ... I have no comment!

LOL!!!! this is crazy......
 

I think I'll stay on the East Coast and deal with constant harrasment by the police!! at least they warn you before they beat your a$$ or shoot you......"put your hands up!!....oh no he's pulling out his wallet..." then they cap you 41 times in the back........but this world is crazy anyways so I guess none of this should suprise me!

Thats a b**ch
 

That sucks ***, Sorry to hear about that. Hope you had full coverage.

For those who asked about specific TX laws, here they are from the TX Concealed Handgun Law handbook. FYI, dispossesed means stolen, actor means the victim.

Penal Code (PC)9.41 Protection of one's own property. (a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property. (b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and the the degree necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the acoter uses the force immediately of in fresh PURSUIT after the dispossession and: 1)the actor reasonable beleives the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or 2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

PC 9.42 Deadly force to protect property. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

1)if he would be justified in using force against the other under section 9.41; and
2)when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
A)to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, BURGLARY, robbery, aggravated robbery, THEFT during the nightime or ciminal mischeif during the nighttime; or
B)to prevent the other who is FLEEING immediately after comitting burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or THEFT during the nightime from escaping with the property; and
3)he reasonably beleives that:
A)the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantional risk of death of serious bodily injury.


PC 9.41 establishes when force may be used, PC 9.42 is a refinement to address deadly force. These 2 sections are the main ones. There are other sections the specify other rights.

Good day,
TMAX