I can tell you know your not going to see a 30hp gain. You might see up to a 20hp gain but not 30hp. Assuming the car's peak hp rpm hasn't changed it will take 30lb-ft more for that. Also you have to average out the dyno run from start to finish and find where the maximum gain occured. I can tell you now its not gonna be at the peak. Its quite possible that a 22hp gain could be registered at like 6500rpm where as peak hp only increased by like 8-12hp. I don't know of most of you remember when biomax dynoed a 95 JWT ECU in his 97SE. Well in his opinion he says its not worth it but he gained an average of 7hp/10lb-ft from 2000-5000rpm. Although there were no 5000-7100rpm gains technically he still gained power from it. Besides the supercharger adds about 50-70hp at the wheels and you guys think an ECU will do about half that ? I'm betting my car would gain 30hp at the wheels from the ECU, but then again mine has headwork and cams. Its the samething that Steve and Madmax did. They gained about 20-35hp on the dyno's at the tuner shops but when they did independant ones the gain was more like 15-20hp at the wheels. IMHO if anyone gets 190-200hp at the wheels with just I/Y/E and ECU its a bargain.

 

Thank you, one guy finally makes some sense.

 

It just sucks that I was never able to dyno or track test my car once I put those heads and cams in . Hell I didn't even get a chance to test my Protorque TC. I knew my car would have ran around 15.6-15.9 if I had some 2.1-2.2 60fts. Although my traps would be around 84-86mph .

 

Maybe I'm not reading the chart right but can someone help me out. On the "official" chart at http://63.204.172.66/maxima/uprd%201.jpg I don't see a 30hp gain. At most I see 20. Any ideas?

 

good point
i just emailed you, but not too late for you to quit yet.
muhahaha

 

Let me know if I have to be there... Please make it on a Saturday. thanks.

-Shing

 

chart has value scattered...
30 is probably one point that is max peaked
hey...I am not arguing there is a gain
I would say you are averaging about 10 plus to 20 something with the ECU through the effective RPM
and I think that is good right?
even if you just gain 15fwhp avg...you pay 30 bucks perpony
if you get 20...thats close to 22.5 bucks perpony
That is good right?
CAI gives like 5 FWHP avg...cost about 150 bucks...that is 30 buck perpony...and people love CAI
SC gives about 60 FWHP..at 3500...that's about 50 to 60 bucks perpony..

Yeah..I don't believe that we gain 30FWHP overall....but I believe that we could gain about 15 FWHP average
Oh heck...when I dynoned, since mine is auto, the diff peak HP between each run in about +- 4FWHP...
manual is more consistent...+- 2 FWHP
so give or take....I only trust dyno number with some certainty..but don't totally dis them..It is a good reference...just don't abuse it ^_^

 

to be perfect honest, even if it ONLY gain 10hp at the wheels, it's already VERY good, compared to other bolt-ons like greddy.
but the point is, don't hype the 30 when it's not 30.

 

I bet the ECU and cams would gain 30hp at the wheels. Give the VQ the duration and valve timing of the VG30DE and I bet it would get 30hp at the wheels .

 

How would you change teh duration of cam timing via ECU? You can't... so that arguement is not valid. give anything the right cam duration and timing it could make a lot of power. CAse in point... B16 motor. Just with a change to Civic Type R or even just the Integra Type R on a otherwise stock B16 motor can see gains of up to 10hp at the wheels, although is is rather uncommon. 5WHP is more common.

-Shing

 

Yes Nismo's statement is valid. He said CAMS and ecu. The ecu can alter the fuel maps and ignition timing and curves. The cams can alter the lift and duration(cam timing too if there was a set of adj. gears available). If the intake system is big enough, modified cams could yield good top end gains, since the VQs really need more top end breathing. Since the VQ has gobs of low end, a little softer punch from 0-4000 is no problem. As far as 30hp at the wheels well, I don't know, you can grind a set of cams to do anything but they need the intake/exhaust breathing to support it. Also the emissions and obd-I or II is a factor.

 

Yup yup, I missed the 'and cams' part...

sorry about that.

-Shing

 

Hehe its all good. But my ISKY cams are the same specs as the NISMO "euro" cam is. If my VG was able to damn near hit the rev limiter in 3rd gear a VQ with the some mods should pull 4th gear (auto) no probs. Then again it could be the heads and cams working together, either way passed 5800rpm my ECU stops mapping the fuel curve. So basically after that I'm running the same injector pulse to the rev limiter. I hope the engine didn't run lean and blow my headgasket. If I see pin holes in my pistons, its time for some forged 10.5CR pistons . As for the VQ cams they are pretty mild compared to the VG30DE or VE30DE cams. The VQ cams have 6 degrees less duration and the valve timing might be milder. Also you can't change duration without changing the cam itself, you can change overlap which is what the NVCS (VTC) does for both engines.

 

Yeah..I agree too !!!!!! 30 HP is a bit much to expect.
The Clayton Dyno should have "smoothing" software to
take out the saw tooth edges shown on the print-out.
Someone should ask Ches about that !!!!!!!!!
I'm still in if it its over 25HP improvement for a 97

Will see if it really pan out......

Tmeyers-Colorado
97 Maxima SE 5sp
SVT..A4 eater

 

I want to see an independant dyno run before and after. I have a really hard time believing that Nissan engineered a "work of art" V6 and teamed it with some rather timid programming. Give me some custom cams, reworked heads, and tunable ECU and I'll show you 40 fwhp gain. Gitee up!!!!

Dave

 

You know, it's ironic to me just about anyone on here who've seen the dyno chart hasn't bothered to get the real skinny from the proverbial horses mouth, even as I put explicit instructions to email me personally and/or to carry any ECU discussions on the Yahoo Maxima Club where I can follow and respond to it.

Instead, I see wild speculations from some, and childish antagonism from others, and many more who are more than willing to build conjectures and hypotheses based on unsubstantiated heresays. Amazing!

To start, check this URL to see the OTHER dyno chart which most of you haven't seen. http://63.204.172.66/maxima/uprd%202.jpg

Next, the maximum gains are made not at the top of the range but rather throughout the rev range starting at the modification point of around 3200RPMs.

Also, for those people who are wondering about the jagged lines of the dyno charts, they had a mild smoothing algorithm applied to one and turned off on the other chart. Normally, you're likely accostumed to seeing smooth charts with a high smoothing algorithm activated. Neither approach means much if you're comparing the same different runs with the same smoothing algorithm applied.

If you still need other things clarified about the ECU, the dyno runs and the charts, or on my subjective opinion of my car with the UPRD ecu in it, feel free to post at http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/nissanmaxima or email me at socalnabil@yahoo.com

--Nabil

 

I NEVER BELIEVE the tuner's dyno....EVER!!!! Call me an ignorant jackass, but I know how easy it is to adjust some inputs and all of sudden your car is making 20hp more from a Fram air filter. Just look around and at all the performance parts makers and their hp/torque claims. We all they are a little outrageous and should not be taken literally since they are advertizing claims from their dyno shops. It's amazing to me that UDP was able to toy with your ECU once and all of a sudden your car is putting down an extra 30 fwhp. It usually takes other companies 1 year to break into the code and find the correct fuel and timing tables. How they figured out the Maxima's tables in half a day is beyond me.

Like I said before, take it to an independant dyno shop with a real dyno jet. Run your car with and without the program then come back and tell me the gains.

OR go to the track and get some times on the same day with and without the ECU. If you really have an extra 30fwhp, then you will most likely have traction problems, but your trap speeds and in both the 1/8th mile and 1/4 mile will be much much higher even if you're a horrible driver. If my car gained 30 fwhp with the chip I'd be flying thru the 1/4 mile in the low 14s at nearly 100 mph!!! My power mods have maybe gained me about 25 fwhp. With just those mods my car has gone from 15.5s@90mph to 14.9s@94-95mph.

Dave

 

Thank you Dave, another man finally makes sense.
I for one don't know anyone who believes tuner's dyno claim, never mind it's a Clayton that I don't understand.

Btw Nabli, you talked all the talk again, but you still don't want to just put it on a dynojet so you can shut everyone up, especially me

 

> It usually takes other companies 1 year to break into the code and find the correct fuel and timing tables. How they figured out the Maxima's tables in half a day is beyond me.

Who ever said it took them one day? Did i say that? no. They've been working on the Eprom Addon Chip since late 97 (for the 95/96 spec cars) and just now decided to move some chips more agressively. I amazed me that just because i say " hey! i'm gonna go to URPD and get an ecu beta tested" automatically mean that company hasn't done crap until then.

>OR go to the track and get some times on the same day with and without the ECU.

why this won't work: So what if he posts 14.4s or something. there's always going to be doubters on the subject. He already did a 14.9s pass at Carlsbad last year with just a ypipe and stock tires. and he's got the time slips.

If you recall what i said: the 30 HP gain was in the midrange RPM powerband. MIDRANGE, i didn't say AVERAGE HP GAIN. Average the chart urself, and you'll see. it's amazing what people will take out of context just to make their points seem more credible.

i've had enough about this bickering of this or that. if you're not interested then disreguard all my future UPRD ECU update posts.

thanks,

 

No problem, midrange right? Not peak or average right?
Show me an independent dynojet chart with a 30FWHP gain at ANY rpm point, and I will apologize to you for being a doubter.

 

IMHO the 30 HP gain at ANY point is not a correct claim.

The clayton dyno chart is awefully noisy, so you have to look at the average HP and ignore the minor peaks+valleys.

Looking at that, I'd say that I SEE a peak gain of ~17-18 HP at ~4500 rpm (~68 mph on the cart). Which is still AWEFULLY impressive. Definitely a worthwhile mod. At 4500 rpm, that 17-18 HP gain translates to ~23ish ftlbs. The change in shape of the torque curve (which I calculated) pretty well matches what Jeff K's dyno plot looked like after he put in his JWT ECU...basically adds a nice torque peak right at 45/4600 rpm that wasn't there before...the stock tuning neutered this torque peak for the engine so that there's more of a flat torque curve from 2000-5000.

Irregardless, **** are you guys such badasses that you never make a friggin mistake? Crap, give Cheston the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure he just speaking off the cuff and prematurely when he claimed the 30 HP gain. Crap, read the friggin chart for yourself if you don't believe that claim, find out what the gain really is, and shut the hell up. You guys are **** retentive as hell and are just looking to fight.

CONCLUSION: Peak gain is at ~4500 and is ~17-18 HP. Cheston misspoke when he claimed 30 HP, but meant no harm. Everyone else here has a bug up their ***. Remove it.

[Edited by Keven97SE on 10-18-2000 at 12:31 PM]

 

Misspoke???
It's cool that you are trying to give him a way out but he ain't gonna take it. Because he truly believes what he is claiming.
As of yesterday 1:04, he is still claiming it "i'm going tomorrow, so hopefully they will have a dynjojet that we can use. Oh i'm trembling woodear! you and your big money bets. gimme a break. i'll post it reguardless. but i'm still standing next to my claims of ~30 in the midrange powerband."
For his original quote, see link:
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....4&pagenumber=2

What's up??

 

Peak gain of 17-18hp. That's about the same as the PROgram produce for Madmax's 5 speed right?? Like I said before, if the PROgram can get that much, there shouldn't be a reason why UPRD can't.

 

Show me a independant dnyo jet run and I'll believe it. Show me a timeslip before and after on the same day showing a pretty impressive increase in trap speed (like 2-3mph) and I'll believe it. I'm not trying to **** anyone off, I just don't believe everything I read or see.

I'll buy it if it works, BUT I'm not throwing my hard earned cash into something that hasn't been proven independantly to make power. It would be stupid for us consumers to buy into something up front without any independant proof of the gains. URDP should realize that if their product does make the power they claim, the orders will roll right in like a flood. They shouldn't need 20 people up front waving $450 in hand to get this thing tested. It's the cost of R&D. We as customers shouldn't have to put our names on a list and be expected to pay for it.

Dave

 

yep yep.
But 17-18 ain't 30

 

[/i][/QUOTE]

It's pretty pathetic that you're willing to do and say anything to try to fruitlessly sustain your point of contention even though you're arguing against dynocharts that speak for themselves. Of course, being the doubter that you are with your trademark childish antagonism really does you credit as well as proves to everyone what kind of hot air you're spewing.

Let's recap this issue for what it is:

1. On one side I've got the dyno charts, and they speak for themselves. And a couple of SoCal guys have driven my car and ran out themselves and bought themselves 96 ECUs to get their UPRD upgrade done ASAP. That's how sold they are. Not to mention that I've been posting on the Yahoo Maxima Club all my driving impressions and I can assure you that the ECU upgrade is not a placebo mod. So what's left? Credibility? Let me say that I am NOT affiliated with UPRD, and I have no vested interest or profit motives whether they sell one or none. I've already got my upgrade and as far as I'm concerned, I could care less if it becomes a hit or not. Nevertheless, I volunteered to have my car become the beta test vehicle because I wanted the Maxima community to benefit from the support of reputable aftermarket companies with real R&D muscle and support. In contrast, what have you done to the Maxima community that was constructive as far as encouraging the support of reputable aftermarket companies?

2. On the other side you're hung up on "challenging the 30FWHP gain", but when I invited you to send me $75 to dyno my car on a dynojet, you backed down and mumbled something about some cheesy bet. No thanks dude, either you put up or shut up basically because you're beginning to sound like a whiny hag.

--Nabil

 

Am I looking at the right graph???

http://63.204.172.66/maxima/uprd%202.jpg

Around 5000rpm, the differece between the Blue and Red is about ~30hp? If you take the lowest part of the Blue line exactly on 5000rpm and compare it to the lowest part Red line on 5000rpm.

This is where I'm getting confused. Are we talking about the HP Peak Gain, which is around ~5500rpm? OR are we talking about Most HP gain @ any RPM, which is around ~4500rpm? Someone clear this up. The HP peak gain is around ~20hp and Highest HP gain is around ~30hp.

[Edited by 1MAX2NV on 10-18-2000 at 01:16 PM]

 

Nabli you are funny:

1) It doesn't matter if people who drove your car think it pulls harder than a Viper. The point is that you guys claimed a 30FWHP gain, AND you guys said you will show it on dynojet as well to shut me up, BUT it's STILL not done.

2) About sending you $75 to do the dyno challenge bet.
Stop trippin. What's a bet? In my definition, a bet is only a bet when both parties have gains or loses depents on the outcome, right??
Now if I send you $75 for you to do dyno, and you do see 30FWHP, so I lose $75, fine fair enough. But what if you do NOT see 30FWHP, what the **** do I gain??? If nothing then how the **** is that a fair bet??? Geeez.

 

wood ear on a quest for the truth. yea boyeeee hehehe


DEBO

 

True but the question is if that will transfer onto dynojet as well, oh did I mention *independent* also?!
Muhahah

 

i hope this dyno thing goes threw so we can finally see the real gains.

DEBO

 

Hold your breath, Cheston is *supposely* getting it done today

 

You're missing the point Dave.
I, like you, am a regular guy who was just as skeptic driving into the UPRD facility to hand over my car to become their test mule.

But Robert (our contact at UPRD) took great pains to assure me that if I was unhappy with the ECU gains that he'd take it out and give me my money back. So I gave them the go ahead.

He also gave Cheston and me a comprehensive tour of their complex, which by the way was VERY impressive. He even allowed Cheston and I to sit through the ECU upload/download/modification surgery that was done on my ECU and when they tweaked the timing/fuel maps. In fact, the engineer at UPRD was very interactive with me to get my impressions of what I wanted done with the car. I opted for the conservative route and he obliged me. THAT was really cool.

Also, and this is something that has gotten out of control on this board. UPRD NEVER CLAIMED 30FWHP for their ECU. In fact, I specifically recall Robert telling me to expect 15-22HP in the midrange and about 10hp at the peak point. He explained that this is the case due mostly to the camshafts' profile and the nature of our intake manifolds/cylinder head flow abilities...

Now we performed the dyno runs in house, but Robert encouraged me to have them done at a DynoJet shop elsewhere if I still had doubts. I also remember thinking that this guy must be confident of these gains or he wouldn't have suggested that to me. After I test drove the car that afternoon, it was OBVIOUS to me that this car was pulling much harder. Just like when you've felt the car pull harder when you put on your y-pipe, the ECU upgrade will give you gains even more significant than those and you'll notice it pulling even harder through the gears.

And when I met up with Hiroshi last week and he test drove my car, he was instantly sold on it, and has since gone out and bought himself a 96 SE ECU to put in his 97 SE car. Cheston has since done the same thing too. And I guarantee you, if other SoCal guys get the chance to ride or drive my car, many would do the same as Hiroshi and Cheston and jump on the group deal.

Now like I've said before, I make no money from UPRD or from this group buy and I have no interest in that whatsoever.
I'm just encouraging this group buy because I want the Maxima to get it's deserved support from reputable and capable tuners.

Now you're asking about having independent DynoJet runs done elsewhere. And like I invited Woodear, I'm willing to oblige you and others who are skeptical like you to help defray some of MY COSTS by sending me $75 via paypal to socalnabil@yahoo.com and I will gladly go out and dyno my car at an independent DynoJet shop.

Now if those skeptics are sincere and are earnest in interest, then this request should be quite reasonable. However, if you're UNWILLING to help defray MY COSTS to suite YOUR CURIOUSITY, then you have no claim to make because I'm not willing to toss my $$$ away just to satisfy random people's whims. Sorry, but if you put yourself in my position, I'm sure you'd agree with me.

--Nabil

[Edited by Nabil on 10-18-2000 at 01:41 PM]

 

It kinda brings back memories on that "discussion" on the effectiveness of the CAI vs SI/POP. If my max was running I would be all over this deal. But damn at best I'm a good 2400 miles away . Is this deal available to 3rd and 2nd gens too? We know that UPRD can reprogram those just as easily as they did the 4th gens. This could help fill some of those orders that havn't been placed yet. Now you just have to find a 3rd gen VG and VE person to be a test pig .

 

Do you see how silly and petty you sound?
Forget it dude, I won't play your cheesy games and I won't be betting on anything. Get it?
So either put up the money to pay for the "independent" DynoJet session or just shut up.

--Nabil

 

That would be cool! $400~ is better than $550~. Would they be willing to do it although JWT already has some available? And can they further alter the timing and fuel to accomodate the VE's cam advancing technology? I suspect JWT's ecu does not. How about getting the ecu to switch on the cam advancing earlier?? *drool*

 

read my reply on the other thread but let me add this...

i am skeptical about UPRD, the PROGram, JWT ALL OF THEM!!!

I dynoed a JWT in my 97 (hell it was a beta and i tried 3 different programs from them)

when dynoed back to back to back: i.e. 97 ecu, jwt ecu, 97 edu i reported the minimal gains (no peak and an average 7hp/10tq all below 4500 rpm)

This was on an independent dynojet dyno.

So until i see a back-back-back on an independent dyno from JWT, PROgram and UPRD, i will not believe anything.

Why? b/c JWT claimed X and what did i see? Y

I paid out of my pocket (and a few 5$ donations) to dyno the JWT prototype, surely Chebosto, Nabil, etc would pay out of theirs (or small donations from us) to do the same...

BUT!!!!!!! it has to be back to back to back for reasons i stated in my other reply. Thus 6 pulls minimum (2 each time) so it'll be an hour test n tune charge i'm sure

Just my 0.02

Robert

 

To Nabli:

Cheston has been, and still is, claiming a midrange 30FWHP gain on dynojet. And THAT was/is/will be the center of debates/arguments. Don't ask me why Cheston makes such a claim if UPRD never gave him such an idea.

For you, I don't doubt your character and I have no beef with you. If you don't think you will gain 30FWHP on dynojet, we need not talk any longer here because we have no arguments.

 

Silly? Lol.
Silly is for people who take ****z but unwilling to back it up with proof.
So, either show the real proof to shut me up or shut the **** up yourself about your gain.

 

this will be all so easy once the final numbers are in.


DEBO