breaux124

iTrader: (1)

Well as I promised I got my Warpspeed 409 SS Y-pipe with the lined flex section and my 304 SS Cattman Y-pipe Dynoed this Saturday.

Results:
Warpspeed max power (best of two runs): 164.0
Warpspeed Torque: 188.5

Cattman max power (best of two runs): 163.2
Cattman Torque: 189.5


This is pretty much what I expected... almost no difference. I don't know where Warpspeed gets their claims of 6hp over the "other guys Y-pipe."

Even though Warpspeed's Y-pipe made more peak HP, you'll see from the curves that Cattman's holds the power longer and better.

They were dynoed about 5hours apart, because of some issues at the shop. I'll post the pictures of the dyno curves tomorrow when I have access to a scanner.


Update:
Here is the dyno graph
http://www.geocities.com/breaux124/dyno.html

Warpspeed's has more power before 4900RPMs and cattman's has more after 4900 RPMs

VeeTec

Do you have an auto or 5 speed?

DA-MAX

iTrader: (10)

the WSP dyno(posted on their site) done on a 5spd VE though!? I know there might not be difference on a VQ, but who knows...

heres WSPs dynos--->
http://www.warpspeedperformance.com/hp1a.jpg
http://www.warpspeedperformance.com/torque2.jpg

Sprint

iTrader: (10)

well my warspeed pipe finally went.. so i will be behind you shortly

breaux124

iTrader: (1)

Auto

And yes their dynos on the website are for a third gen, but I still don't see how their Y-pipe can make more HP.

Note: The person at the speed shop was impressed with the quality of cattman's Y-pipe. He pointed out how Brian Catt's uses a better method for the 2-1 junction before the flex section.

DA-MAX

iTrader: (10)

on the dynos I see it says 1993 VE 5spd DOHC.....

but anyways I guess the major question now is which pipe is more durable and will last the longest and most importantly won't HISS!?! since they both make rather equal hp and tq gains....

bmfjeep

It is no surprise to us that our Y pipes dyno better, we designed them for better flow and we still don't use butt welds, even on our new 304 SS TIG welded Y pipes.

We did not ask the opinion of any speedshop technician when we designed our 2 into 1 transition, we did consult with several automotive engineers who specialize in exhaust systems as we wanted maximum flow and reduced exhaust gases turbulence.

We do have a kit which replaces the unlined flex section with a lined flex section, it can be easily installed in less than 1/2 hour.


Dallas and Dan
WarpSpeed Performance

Max_Gator

Yes, that peak hp advantage of .8 on the VQ is sure something.

Stillnmax

dont mean to sound condescending, but would you mind telling us or me which companies y'all consulted before you desgined the exhaust. I just personally would feel better knowing the companies so i would understand their engineering ideas.

MardiGrasMax

iTrader: (14)

Cool! Because a peak power difference of a few hp is not as important as the hp levels of the whole curve.

DanNY

iTrader: (14)

where are those plans for a stillnmax SC? how about the projector headlights?

breaux124

iTrader: (1)

Here is the dyno graph
http://www.geocities.com/breaux124/dyno.html

Warpspeed's has more power before 4900RPMs and cattman's has more after 4900 RPMs

GTRBlkMax97

iTrader: (1)

I know exactly what he is talking about, I bought my first y-pipe from Warpspeed, was very happy with the power gains, car hauled A$$ with it, but it had a hole in it right at the 2-1 junction, sent it back got another one, guess what the same thing happened. But oh well, if I could have gotten one without the hole I would be happy but I think I am going to Cattman for my y-pipe

bill99gxe

iTrader: (1)

Bryan,

Keep in mind that Warpspeed's gain on the VE product was the result of Warpspeed taking Cattman's original VE y-pipe and improving the fit and flow. It's sensible that it made those kind of dyno proven gains as that original y-pipe wasn't ideal, as Jeff92se will attest.

Warpspeed's claim isn't really valid anymore because Cattman has re-designed that pipe, and I'm sure he used Warpspeed's improvements as a guide.

Then, on the other hand, one will always be theoretically "better" with each new rev.....the good thing is we as Maxima owners win because we have choices.

Thanks for doing that testing and being a contributor.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Yeah gotta give props to anyone willing to spend $$ for the sake of a comparision. Since my name came up, I'll comment further. On the original VE Y from cattman, I spend alot of $$, trying to track down what the #$%^& the bees in the can noise. After going to the exhaust shop twice, they finally replaced the sub-par flex section. That eliminated the bees noise. I noted this and was conversing w/ Warpspeed on this about a year ago. I reported what I found out on this bbs so BOTH makers could build a better product for maxima owners. Who fixed it first, I have no idea.

breaux124

iTrader: (1)

Look at the graph. Cattman has more power in the higher RPMs and more peak torque. So how is your's a better dyno?

Who did you consult that told you to put two pipes straight into the 2-1 collector? I've looked at offroad pipes for different cars and it seems that they all angle one of the pipes, to produce smoother air flow. In physics it's called laminar flow, and if both pipes come in at the same angle it creates extra turbulance which reduces air flow.
*This may be why Cattman's pipe holds the power at higher rpms, cause the air flow at the higher speeds is smoother.

And, I do have the lined flex section. Mine seems to have a problem. I'm guessing that the air flow from idle to around 2000RPMs is matching the resonate frequency of the flex section causing it to pulsate.
You once stated that this is impossible cause the flex section is so strong. Anybody who understands physics and resonate frequency knows that this is possible.

d_98SE

One thing i like about this site is that Manufacturer's do come out to defend their product's. Now what if we could get stealin i mean stillen to come ..............

Dave B

IMO, you guys are looking WAY too hard into the numbers and curves. At most, I'm seeing a variance of 2-3hp and 1-2 ft/lbs torque after 4900rpms between the pipes. That's about a +/- 1.5% difference in power. You won't feel it. My car has made 4 passes on a dyno on two different occassions (2 runs each time). I know you guys won't like it, but there was a difference of 2-3hp/tq between runs within 20 minutes of each other. Just something to think about.

As for the "hiss", "bees in the can", etc sounds that everyone hears, sorry, but that's how it goes when you use thinner wall tubing, no precats, and a smaller flex section. There's no way around it. My Borla Y-pipe on my 94 Z28 made the same kind of hiss as my Stillen. The flex section, no matter if it's lined or not will make a buzz/rattle sound. The volume is lowered, but it is still there. If you want a Maxima with a Y-pipe, then you'll have to get used to some ugly sounds on certain throttle openings.

IMO, all the power from the Y-pipes comes from the removal of the precats. I'd bet that you could get nearly the same power if you simply cut the precats out and welded in a straight pipe onto the stock y-pipe. The debate of laminar flow always seems to come up in the intake/exhaust arguments. I think these dyno runs clearly show that their is good flow on the Warpspeed pipe even though it's 2-1 junction is slightly crude. There has been lots of debate about the CAIs advantage over the POP with laminar flow. Truth is there is little difference if any with these intakes on the dyno and on/off the track. Should I bring up the "headers" saga? Simply looking at the shinny headers vs the ugly rust stock manifolds you'd think the headers would move a ton of air. WRONG, they do little if anything over a aftermarket y-pipe. I think it's clear the VQ is moving as much air as it can with a intake and full exhaust. Anything bigger or smoother (all the aftermarket parts appear to flow good) is pretty much pointless and has been shown on the dyno as such.

Point is, after working in the engineering field for over 3 years now, you will learn that all those nifty physics equations don't necessarily apply in the field when tested. I've monitored gasoline contaiminated groundwater move UPHILL!!! They never told me that was possible in school


Dave

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Dave B.

I don't think ALL of the gains are due to the removal of the pre-cats. The 3-gens have enjoyed nice gains w/ the Y despite the fact that we don't have pre-cats. The eom design of the Nissan maxima Y IS pretty nasty. For the 4-gen+, it's made even worse w/ pre-cats.

Also for the bees in can noise. You are partially right. With thinner wall tubing, you cannot be 100% noise free. But my Cattman(early version) had a flex that was leaking(I could see soot on the braided parts) and was unlined. I spent a good chunk of money concentrating other the other exhaust features(ie.. changing the flat flanges to ball-joint) and not thinking it could be the flex section. Finally I said #$%^ it and had it hacked off and a new one put in. This made a very big difference in the noise level. Yes there was still noise but the bees in can noise was DRAMATICLY reduced.

After reporting this about a year ago, Cattman and others did not dispute my findings. They instead went to a different flex section design after that. That would seem to further suport my research.

Yeah, I would agree w/ you that gains could be had just by cutting out the stock precats but the problem is trying to find a muffler shop that would do that. And if you were to actually do that, I would assume the muffler shop would go ahead and redesign the stock oem Y connector anyway. My bro has a 90se and had a shop do just that(redesing the Y connector). It made a nice difference. This was of course the only change. Everything else was stock. The one interesting thing is he does NOT have the bees in can noise at all. Just a slight swooshing noise. I think the Nissan OEM flex section must be a pretty good design.

breaux124

iTrader: (1)

Dave B

I realize that the differences are not even a factor, cause of how close they are. In my opinion both Y-pipes performed equally. My issue was with quality.

The Warpspeed Y-pipe came with a leaking flex section. Ok that's fine, I'll just replace it with their lined flex section. But this caused other issues, that they think are impossible. At slightly over idle to about 2000RPMs the flex section expands and contracts on itself. This created issues with airflow and backpressure. When my car is within this RPM range it feels like it's running hard.

Do you think that the air flow is matching the resonate frequency of the flex section, causing it to pulsate? It's not even like it's subtle, you can visually see the flex section expanding and contraction on itself.
Any expert opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

How about wrapping the flex w/ 3-4 hose clamps to keep it from flexing? Or using some thick sheet metal + hose clamps? Just for test purposes?

Synki

Hey i like the SX7R sticker. I might have to post mine up.

Breaux, thanks for the info & dynos! Its about time someone compared them.

Though there are different hp & tq gains, that doesnt give anyone any reason to start trash talking other companies.

True Cattman and Stillen may be better but remember, WSP is more along the people with a lower budget and they ahve proven that they do make good gains.

I personally think Stillen, Cattman, WSP, & even Budget has done great jobs in making products for the Maxima. We wanted more companies to be in the game and it has happened. Lets not short change anyone.

breaux124

iTrader: (1)

Sorry, I'm done with all my testing.
I'm just happy that it's all over and done with.

Hopefully after all this all the companies will gain something from this an improve the little things that make there products different. I've heard that WSP now wraps their Y-pipes and neatly puts the gaskets in the box. I'm glad that they've moved forward as a company, and hopefully I had something to do with it.

In the end, everyone's experiences are different - some good, some bad. It seems that Warpspeed has improved their company very much from when I place my order and I'm happy to see that. Hopefully they'll develop new products for the maxima and continue to improve their company as a whole.

In my OPINION, Brian Catts makes a better product, but I would say that WSP is catching up quickly. Competition is always a great thing, especially for the consumer.

Dave B

I don't know exactly what's happening with that lined flex section, but I don't doubt what you are saying. If it's truely contracting on itself, it will make for some driveability issues and possibly rattles and vibrations. Maybe this is why Nissan didn't use this setup.

It's too bad quite few people have had problems with the Warpspeed 4th gen y-pipes. The design seems so simple when you look at it, but actually it's very complicated. Like Cattman, it's probably going to take Warpspeed a while to fix their engineering problems. Even Cattman pipes still have problems with fit, rattles, etc. Stillen still seems to be the best fitting. GuidoSST(Dave) has one of Warpspeeds non-mandrel Y-pipes that he's trying to install (couple bolts don't want to budge). The Y-pipe looks very nice and the welds "look' decent (a little rough), but I don't know one type of weld from another. In engineering, looks don't necessarily mean anything. We'll see how Dave likes his Y-pipe when he gets it on. I know Dallas has been waiting for months for him to get it on.

Dave

guido_sst

I've tried 2 breaker bars and an impact wrench with no success, unless anyone else has some ideas, I'm breaking out the air chisel and cutting those suckers off!