y2kse

iTrader: (1)

Re: Cattman Y-Pipe Flex Section Repairs/Inspections

Hi Brian –

You’ve been kind enough to inform us of a serious design defect in the flex sections of Cattman Y-pipes, and I commend you for being so open and forthcoming.

If I understand your description of the defect correctly, the potential for liner separation exists in every Cattman Y-pipe with a lined flex section. Under the circumstances, perhaps you’d consider issuing a recall on all Cattman Y-pipes still under warranty for the purpose of replacing defective flex sections with new non-defective flex sections. My concern, of course, is that if the defect isn’t eliminated, it will show up sooner or later. And I’m certain you wouldn't want to make your customers pay for a problem that isn’t their fault.

Having said that, I realize that issuing a recall might place an extraordinary financial burden on you. So if a recall isn't possible, perhaps you’d at least be willing to reimburse those of us whose Y-pipes are still under warranty for the cost of getting our Y-pipes inspected. I’ve checked local rates here in Southern California and the inspection should only run around $30.00.

How would you like to proceed?

Regards,

Bruce (y2kse) . . .

PS: I sent a copy of this post to Brian Catts. So far he’s been good at responding. He also appears to be a person of integrity. I expect that I'll hear from him shortly. Stay tuned.

sbslacker

iTrader: (1)

From the sticky...

Yes, I know installation costs will be incurred, and no, I cannot cover any expenses beyond shipment and repair of the defective flex sections. And, all of this said, we still reserve the right to inspect for the cause of the damage and to refuse warranty coverage if the problem is due to non-warranty related causes.

I don't think Brian will do it, but I guess it never hurts to ask.

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (1)

I personally think that if someone is worried about their flex....they should jack up their car....undo TWO measly bolts...and take a look with a flashlight....takes FIVE minutes...not exactly a $30 job...

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

I'm not talking about installation costs, ljl10. I'm talking about inspection costs for a KNOWN design defect. And I'm also not talking about a great deal of money. Moreover, paying for an inspection is much less expensive than paying for a recall even though a recall would be the proper course of action under the circumstances, particularly when every single Y-pipe with a lined flex section has the defect by Cattman's own admission.

Keep this in mind: Just because the defect hasn't resulted in the problem doesn't mean the defect isn't there. Then ask yourself this question. How comfortable are you driving around with a component in your car that you KNOW is defective, could seriously impact your vehicle's performance, and could eventually end up costing you a lot of money to repair?

And I a disagree. I believe Cattman will stand behind their warranty and either recall the defective Y-pipes or pay to have them inspected if for no other reason than to protect their reputation.

This is a difficult situation for Cattman and I have compassion for them. But that doesn't relieve them of their responsibility for having sold a defective product, nor should the financial burden of inspecting and correcting the condition be placed on the consumers of that product.

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

For those of us who are not mechanically inclined, I'd rather have my mechanic remove the bolts and take a look at my flex section. But hey, if you're willing to travel around the country at your own expense and inspect our flex sections for free before our warranties expire . . .

PS: Southern California is lovely in the Springtime.

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

My e-mail to cattmanperformance@earthlink.net was just returned to me marked "undeliverable". I'll send it to support@cattman.com and let you know if it bounces back again.

ejj

iTrader: (5)

I agree with BriGuyMax, if you think you have a problem with your pipe (and you would know if you did), check it out yourself or get it checked out at your own cost. I don't think Cattman should have to pay to have everybody who thinks they have a problem getting their pipe checked out.

With any performance part there are risks that you take installing them on your car. If you are not comfortable driving your car with non-factory quality parts (which many performance parts are not), they keep it stock.

[EDIT]
P.S. - From my email conversations in the past with Brian, don't expect a response right away. He is very busy and usually takes a few days to respond.
[/EDIT]

black019

if the pipe is known to be defective, why not? actually, you are right. cattman should recall all the pipes and eat that cost instead of inspection costs. i bought a pipe from the GD, had the problem. sent it back and got a brand new one...that still had the same problem. now I have paid for installation twice and I would really rather have a full refund of my money. but i doubt that will happen so lets see what mr. cattman comes up with next.

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

How cavalier ofyou, ejj5875. I'm glad you have the resources and the desire to pay for other people's mistakes. And I don't think I have a problem, I KNOW I HAVE A PROBLEM. If you purchased a Cattman Y-pipe with a lined flex section, so do you. The fact that it may not have shown up yet in your vehicle is the luck of the draw. But the odds are certainly not in your favor. According to my recent poll, of the 15 people who have had their Y-pipes inspected so far, 12 of them discovered a problem with their flex sections.

I do feel comfortable driving my vehicle with non-factory quality parts. That's why I purchased a Cattman Y-pipe in the first place. But a design defect is a design defect, and it needs to be addressed and corrected for Cattman to maintain its reputation for producing quality parts.

ejj

iTrader: (5)

I don't, I'd just get under the damn car and look for myself. Its not that hard.

No, I don't. I've checked my y-pipe every time I've taken it off the car, and the flex is perfect. If and when something should happen to it, I'll address it with Brian. Until then, I am 100% satisified with the pipe.

Just because (for example) a small percentage of people who've purchased Maxima's got a lemon, does that mean you got a lemon too? While there may be a possiable defect, that doesn't mean all pipes will have these problems.

From http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....hreadid=108030 :

As Brian stated, its not a design problem. The pipe is wonderfully designed, its just a manufacturing flaw that will affect a few pipes. Not everybody has a bad pipe.

I don't think its fair to ask Brian to pay for everybody to get their pipe checked out. Now, maybe if your pipe has a problem he should contribute to the install/uninstall costs, but I can't see how you're justifing saying that he should pay for everyone to get their pipe checked when this may only be a problem for 5% of the cattman y-pipe owners. That just doesn't make sense.

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

Pay real close attention now, ejj5875. This is from Brian himself:

"I'm not making excuses for my flexes failing -- once again, its the result of a crappy design . . ."

Perhaps you'd like to comment further . . .

ejj

iTrader: (5)

Cut the attitude. Its getting old.

I found that quote (although it would have been nice if you provided a link to it) and stand corrected. Brian seems to have contridicted himself.

However, that doesn't change the fact that it has only caused problems with 3% tops of the pipes that he's sold.

I think you're fighting an no-win battle. Just get a jack, get under your car, and check it for yourself. Don't be so damn lazy.

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

Check your math ejj5875. 12 out of 15 pipes inspected with flex section failures amounts to a wee bit more than 3%.

Never underestimate the power of denial!

I am not a mechanic and I will not inspect my own Y-pipe. If you'd like to come over and inspect mine for me, be my guest.

And with all due respect, my attitude is none of your business. Let's try to stay focused on the issue if we can rather than giving each other instructions. OK?

ejj

iTrader: (5)

Well, make it 12 our of 16, 'cause mine's fine. Thats 12 our of 100's if not 1,000's that Brian has sold. If you're pipe is suffering from this problem, you will know it without having to inspect the pipe, and I highly suspect that most people who aren't suffering from power loss aren't going to check their pipes, so you're numbers are quite misleading and you know it.

Now think about what you're doing. What would Stillen's reaction to this situation be if this problem occured with their y-pipes? I'm sure that they say, "You were racing the car, etc, etc" as they've done to people with SC problems. Brian is a fellow Maxima owner and one of the "good guys" out there, and you're asking him to cough up thousands of dollars for people to see if they have the problem? That's called biting the hand that feeds you. Brian has been more than willing to help, and has even stated that he'll take car of pipes that are a few months out of warrenty.

You're not a mechanic? You don't have to be. If you can work a jack and rachet, you can tell if you're pipe has a problem. You're just lazy. Wouldn't want to waste 20 minutes or learn something new, would we?

I'd be happy to check anyone's y-pipe out for them. I'm in Rochester, NY, and if you can get here, or want to fly me to California, I'd be happy to look at it for free.

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

I'm sorry you find it necessary to continue to attack me personally rather than deal with the facts. I, of course, refuse to respond to that sort of strategy.

Now if you'd like to fly to Southern California at your own expense and inspect my Y-pipe, I'm game.

AllGo

iTrader: (1)

I believe that when Brian made this statement he is speaking specifically of the poor design of the flex section itself a product produced by someone other than cattman. He used this component in some of his pipes and they seem to have poor quality. IMHO I would either get Brian to send a new flex section and have it installed locally to save your downtime(a minimal inconvenience) or just buy a pipe from warpspeed for $225 and try to get a refund for your cattman through your cc company.

ejj

iTrader: (5)

I'll pass. However if there is anyone in the Buffalo/Rochester area that is in the same situation, I'd be happy to help you determine if your pipe is bad.

Note the "help". You'd learn how to do this yourself as well.

sbslacker

iTrader: (1)

Man, this thread really went to **** since it started. Too bad. I agree with Eric and BriGuy....take 20 minutes and inspect your pipe on your own. If you make any headway with Brian, let us know...

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

Your observations are right on the money, AllGo. And your idea about having Cattman send a new flex section is also extremely constructive and one I hadn't thought of, particularly if Cattman is willing to pay the cost of having the flex section installed locally.

I'd prefer to keep my Cattman Y-pipe rather than return it for a refund. As far as I'm concerned, requesting a refund is a last resort.

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

Actually I disagree, ljl10. All sorts of good ideas are coming to the surface, ideas I hope Brian will consider when he takes the time to review this thread. And disagreements are bound to pop up from time to time. It isn't whether people disagree, it's how they express their disagreement that counts. And just because you and I may disagree doesn't mean you're wrong.

ejj

iTrader: (5)

Brian has stated that he will do this if you are having the problem with your flex, along with $20 for the install (which is equal to his cost).

sbslacker

iTrader: (1)

That sounds great. Good luck.

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

Yes, but how can he be sure that I'm having a problem with my flex section if he doesn't inspect my Y-pipe himself. He'd have to take my word for it, right? Do you think he'd be willing to do that?

This idea is sounding better and better. If Brian is willing to send out new flex sections to those people whose Y-pipes are still under warranty along with a check for $20.00 to cover installation, then the entire issue regarding recalls or payment for inspections goes away. More important, the new flex sections can probably be installed without removing the Y-pipe.

I like it! I like it a lot!

ejj

iTrader: (5)

Got a camera? Digital or otherwise?

Dave B

Damn, for $50 you could buy a 2-ton floor jack and jack stands. With that and $200 spent on metric sockets 10-19mm, a couple socket extensions, socket wrench, breaker bar, 100-lb torque wrench, and Chiltons manual you can take a part the suspension, exhaust, interior, and nearly everything under the hood. I don't understand why people are so afraid to do their own work on a car. It's really not complicated at all. The Maxima is designed to be relatively easy to work on. I still am amazed at how well thought out many of the servicebale items are on this car. To inspect the flex section, all you have to do is undo two cat bolts, swing the flex end of the Y-pipe over and look inside with a flashlight.

Personally, I don't think Cattman's Y-pipes are of high quality at all. I think the design is very poor. Sure, he uses high quality materials, but the QC of the pipe is terrible and consider yourself in the monority if you get a Y-pipe that fits right, the first time. However, Cattman should not be responsible for the install/reinstall/ and/or the costs of inspecting the flex. I know of no companies that will reimberse you for this kind of work. The only thing the company will do is replace the defective part. He's not responsible for any other costs. If you don't like this aspect of the business, you've got two options:

1- Do the work yourself
2- Keep your car stock


Dave

sbslacker

iTrader: (1)

Exactly...

black019

you can make it 14 out of 18 as I got two pipes that had the problem.

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

That's possible if you've got a camera, digital or otherwise, that will take a clear enough picture of the flex section failure with the Y-pipe still mounted on the engine.

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

Exactly, Dave. That's the precise remedy I'm hoping for. I just don't want to have to pay to have my Y-pipe inspected, pay to have it removed if the problem exists, pay to have my stock Y-pipe reinstalled, pay to have my stock Y-pipe removed when my Cattman Y-pipe comes back from repairs, and pay to have my Cattman Y-pipe reinstalled. And while some people may be willing to do all that work themselves, I'm simply not one of them.

My hope now is that Brian will ship new flex sections and $20.00 to cover installation to all those who make a claim and whose Y-pipes are still under warranty.

ericdwong

I also think he should NOT be responsible for any installation/inspection costs. My Quaife differential, which has a lifetime warranty- even when raced covers replace/repair of the differential, but NOT downtime, incidental costs, installation/disinstallation. The Y pipe is (in most cases) very easy to install and remove. The only times it becomes a pain in the butt, is if it does not fit right, you got bent brackets or the bolts are seized on. There is also other indirect ways to inspect as well. Take it to a dyno, see how the car does, and/or take it to the drag strip and watch the MPH.

However, I've got to wonder how many other people are driving around with blown Y pipes and not even realizing it.

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

Me too, Eric. Me too. And I wonder just how much the flex section has to fail before you actually start to feel it.

BTW, how do you think Quaife would handle it if they found out that their LSDs had a design defect?

ejj

iTrader: (5)

Here's an idea. Brian charges a $50 core until you return the old, defective flex section.

That way, if you're lying and your current flex section isn't damaged, he keeps your $50 and its all good. If you flex section does have problems, then he refunds your $50.

The upside to this is that Brian wouldn't need proof of failure from people before sending out a new flex section.

Otherwise people would claim problems just to get a new flex section because they can. Even if they don't need it.

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

Not a bad thought, ejj. But if that's how Brian decides to proceed, I think the refund should be based on whether the returned flex section is one that has the design defect as opposed to whether or not it's showing signs of damage. In fact, if you look at the wording in most warranties, it says they cover "defects in materials and workmanship", not damage caused by those defects.

Damage resulting from defects in materials and workmanship is a much more serious matter normally involving product liability issues, particularly if the damage is collateral to the product itself. For example, damage to your engine resulting from excessive backpressure due to a collapse of the flex section would be considered collateral damage. And such damage is possible, by the way, particularly to the exhaust valves as well as to plastic and rubber fittings near the manifolds. To put it in layman's terms, exhaust gas can REALLY warm things up when its got no place to go!

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

OK. Brian called and we had a LONG conversation. He won't pay for inspections on Y-pipes still under warranty, but he will either repair defective flex sections in accordance with the terms posted in the sticky thread at the top of this forum OR he will send out a flex section and $20.00 when he receives the new flex sections. He expects the new sections to arrive on or around 4/25. In order to receive a new flex section, you MUST take a photograph of the damage to your current flex section and provide proof of purchase. And once you receive the new flex section, you're basically on your own for repairs to the Y-pipe thereafter as Cattman cannot be held responsible for the quality of the welds. Brian also STRONGLY ADVISES that the new flex section be TIG welded with the Y-pipe on the vehicle if possible.

Brian said he wasn't sure when he'd have time to review this thread, but he said he'd get to it as soon as he can.

sbslacker

iTrader: (1)

Sounds fair. This thread didn't go to **** after all.

In the end y2kse, are you happy with the outcome of this? I'm just curious because you made a very emphatic point in the beginning of this thread that you were NOT paying to have your pipe checked out. Yet you will still have to either A. do the inspection yourself or B. pay to have someone look at it in order to have your pipe fixed.

I have a Cattman pipe myself, and although I would have handled my situation with Brian privately (esp. after having the flex sticky & ericdwong's thread posted), I will say thank you to you for taking the time out to clear this matter up....for yourself and everyone else who has a busted flex.

dmbmaxima2k2

iTrader: (1)

being a business man myself i feel that there is no way he should have to pay to have them inspected because people are too lazy to even go and look under their car. and there is no way to know exactly what pipes MIHGT have bad sections, to replace them all at random would not work very effectively also. if the defect shows up within the warranty period then it should be fixed, if not the pipe is out of warranty and it's the buyers responsibility at that point ot have it fixed.

people-go and check you pipes and if they are bad and in warranty send that in.

to pay to have them inspected is absurd.

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

It's not so much a matter of being happy as it is a matter of accepting what is, ljl10. And who knows. Perhaps Brian will look at this thread and decide that something we said has merit.

y2kse

iTrader: (1)

Your viewpoint strikes me as being a bit parochial, Steve. Not everyone is as mechanically inclined as you are. And given the situation with the flex sections, to tell those who are not so inclined that it's absurd to pay a mechanic to inspect their Y-pipes is . . . well . . . absurd.

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (1)

I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't have a socket wrench and a 14mm socket.....

A 3 year old can undo bolts....it's not a matter of being mechanically inclined...it's a matter of being motivated.

dmbmaxima2k2

iTrader: (1)

exactly, most of us that get mods install them outselves and can check outselves. i didn't know how to do anything when i came here in december 2000 and by march i was dropping y-pipes, june i was installing nos, fuel pumps and lowering my car. it's a matter of desire and motivation, those that are so concernced about the flex coming apart need to be motivated to take 2 BOLTS off and stick thier head in front of their y-pipe. if they can't i'm sure they have a friend that will help.

-steve