After some thought, I've decided I'm going to go with the JWT 65 shot program and ECU. This will be within the next year or so, but first I will be buying some slicks. What kind of gains have people seen from a 65 shot? I know Jime cut off like 1.5 seconds with a 35 shot + slicks. I figure with a 65 shot I could cut off close to 2 seconds with slicks on.

That means if I get my NA performance close to 14 flat I could possibly be in the 12's with the 65 shot and slicks. This sounds like such a simple way to get better times...why aren't more people running them?

Anything I should take into consideration? Is there something I'm missing? The JWT program and ECU sound like such a safe way to run nitrous, with the right amount of gains. Do you guys think the stock LSD unit can handle that much power and traction?

 

I don't you'll drop 2 seconds, but 1.5 seconds sound pretty reasonable. Jime has an auto which allows him to stall up the converter and use nitrous straight from the go. With a 5 speed it will be harder to modulate wheelspin, shift, adjust rpms, etc. Also with slicks, a 5 speed, and nitrous, you'll be putting some hellacious stress on the differential and gears. The auto takes out a lot of driveline shock, hence the reason why a lot of drag racers have far better reliabilty when pushing tons of power thru relatively stock autos.

A 65 shot will net about 50-55fwhp, but will make around 70-80fwtq with the entire powerband elevated when the nitrous hits. That's why nitrous is so effective at lowering ETs (torque owns). The JWT ECU nitrous setup is ideal, IMO. The 2-stage ECU is tuned for nitrous and NA with the flip of a switch plus the ECU completely takes care of fuel delivery and offers a ton more peace of mind. It is pretty expensive, but you'll have a faster NA car and a far more reliable nitrous car.

I think going from your 14.8s to 13.4s@103mph is entirely possible. Get the MEVI and you would shed another .2-.3 and gain 2-3mph.


Dave

 

Well, do you think the stock LSD unit can handle that much torque? I've got a rebuilt tranny in the car with a new clutch...so hopefully it can handle the shot for a while. Before I get the kit, I plan on doing pretty much every NA bolt-on, like JWT ECU, VI, slicks, and exhaust cutout. I would think I could get close to 14 flat with those mods. From there, subtract 1.5 or so....and I'm in the 12s....right? Do you know some more info about the JWT ECU piggyback? Would it pretty much eliminate having to tune the kit? I can run a 65 shot on a stock fuel pump, right?

What would be some safety precautions I could take to make sure I don't break anything? Would you recommend getting my gears cryo treated? My primary concern is longevity of the car, so are there any other tips for running 5 speed with slicks and nitrous? Not spray right out of the hole?

 

remember Jime's car is significantly lighter than every other 4th gen. Thats one of the reasons he pulls such amazing times with his 95.

 

The driveline stress doesn't have anything to do with the torque a 65 shot will put out it has to do with the shock put on the gears, diff, and axles when you drop the clutch from redline with slicks.

Also you can't just do subtraction to come up with your theoretical time. No you're most likely not going to run a 12.5 with a 65 shot and slicks. I would guess around a 13.0 maybe a 12.8.

 

I gotta go against the odds and say 12.5 is so possible my man. Maybe not on your first try, but once you get used to your car on juice and slicks, you'll get there.

 

So you think he is going to be able to drop 2.3 tenths from his previous best time with a 65 shot. I would like to see that...

 

Hmmm, I'm guilty of not thoroughly reading the thread. I totally missed the 14.8 N/A.

 

nice max in the sig...very unique lookin

 

I agree about the launch, don't forget that when the nitrous hits, the torque curve elevates immediately and a 4th gen 5 speed with bolt-ons and a 65 shot will be pushing close to 300fwtq at 3000-3500rpms. When he shifts the 1-2 and 2-3, he has a decent chance of breaking a gear if he's banging the gears and on slicks. The 5 speeds break gears and the autos slip under extreme torque. I believe blubyu2k2 is experiencing tranny slippage in the nitroused 2k2 auto.


Dave

 

Yes but I was the idiot to not get a VB mod or anything to keep the shifts from being so laggy. Pushing 396fwtq at 3600 rpms didnt take long to slip away laggggggggggggggggggg.

 

So with slicks, it's normal to pop the clutch at redline? That seems a little extreme to me. And I never said I was going to run a 12.5....I said 12's would be theoretically possible. If I can get traction, and keep the tranny intact, I don't see mid 12's to be out of the question with some more weight reduction.

And I think some of you guys haven't really read what I posted. I don't plan on going from a 14.8 to 12's. First off, I would assume that since that was my first time to the track with a 5 speed, I would be able to improve my time. Once I do that, I would get all the NA bolt ons, and work from there.

What could I do to strengthen the parts at risk? Cryo treat gears....are stronger axles available? Does anybody know if the stock LSD unit can take this much power???

 

Well I guess were both guilty of not reading everything posted, because as I said before it's not the power that is the problem (there are plenty of guys putting down WAYYYY more power than you ever will on a 65 shot with a stock LSD, hal, 500+ ft lb of torque, I30krab 450ish whp, etc) its the driveline shock of dumping the clutch and banging gears with the traction of slicks that will cause the problem.


As for not dumping the clutch, no you don't have to dump it at redline as that would be what I consider hazardous to your trans, but then you arent using the car to its full potential, in which case you'll never see 12s on a 65 shot. If you want 12s on a 65 shot you are going to have to do everything possible to get there, which will include dumping the clutch from redline. If you want to ensure your transmission stays intact you need to not dump the clutch from redline, in which case you'll never see 12s. You're between a rock and a hard place.

Cryotreating the gears and such will help strengthen them, but that doesn't guarantee that they aren't going to break if you start really abusing the car on the launch in your quest for 12s.

 

Well then...would drag radials help enough to make them worth the traction lost? I heard they were sort of a waste of money. Is it possible to use any shot of nitrous and not put a great deal of stress on the driveline? I can't handle any more things going wrong on my car. Aside from doing some crazy custom job, is there anything I can do to strengthen the driveline? How does your car take to the slicks? Do you feel the car struggling with them?

 

I would like some sort of answer to ^ questions.....but I have some new ones too. Let's say that with the 65 shot, I use DR's instead of slicks, which would reduce some driveline shock, correct? If the nitrous cuts off 500 rpm or so before redline, wouldn't that cut off a good amount of the shock, since I would be basically shifting like any NA Max with slicks? I know some turbo guys were breaking drive axles or something like that...have any of them found a company that would make reinforced parts?

 

Dont bang shift it! 1-2 are tough gears, take 2-3 real easy, 3rd is the weak link.

 

If you are running with a unspung hub on your clutch, you increase that risk of breaking gears.

 

just for everyones info. My car NA is a 14.7 second car. This past weekend with 75 shot and slicks I ran a 13.1@105 with a 1.9 60'. This could have been a 12.XX second run but I hit the rev limiter hard in first, which is not good at all while spraying luckily I lived through it and will have to be more careful next time.

 

What kinds of clutches have an unsprung hub? ACT?

 

Have fun on your quest man. IMHO, if your max is your daily driver, dont put it at risk like this. With a 65shot, slicks, and a 5speed, your just asking for trouble. Its really only a matter of time before something breaks man. Right now, im going through tranny problems. Im running a 75shot and some random bolt-ons and was planning on running at the track shortly. Thats not gonna be happening anymore. You should ask yourself if running 12s once is worth breaking something that can cause you hundreds to thousands to repair...





Eric

 

As far as ACT goes, the Stage I clutch is sprung and the Satge II and III clutches are not. If you want to see pics to better understand what I'm saying, checkout this page

 

I know what you mean. I see you lost 1st and 2nd....I lost them last summer and had my tranny rebuilt. How did your tranny problems come about? It doesn't look like you run slicks....

I would love to be able to run 12's, but you're right, I can't afford to replace anything anymore. What do you think would be a better overall combo? NA + slicks, or nitrous with drag radials/street tires? I want to go faster, but I get the feeling that it's much riskier than I had anticipated. How does Matt (mardigras) keep stuff from breaking? Slow shifts? At least with my stock clutch it won't be as harsh as people running around with those ACT clutches....

 

A 65 shot and slicks will NOT hurt your tranny by themselves. You will hurt your tranny by 'banging' your shifts. I've heard of people breaking gears while NA.

Regardless of mods, your driving style is the biggest factor in tranny life. That tranny can handle more consistent torque than you would believe. But when you are transferring a HUGE amount of inertia between an overrevving motor and the driveline, you are sometimes multiplying the torque through built up potential energy in the motor.

There is a dyno plot on motorvate that shows a 5spd running through the gears and 'moderately' banging 2nd, 3rd and 4th. This car was stock at the time and it was spiking pretty good.

IMO, 12 seconds on a 65 shot and mild bolt-ons will most likely require a redline launch and WOT shifts... that's how the pros do it to get those "official" 1/4 mile times for certain cars. IIRC, the S2000 is a good example of that.

If you rely on this car for transportation and can't afford to fix it a lot I would suggest looking for 13's. Or, even better, or worse, not racing. (I was in the same boat as you and I was running a 50 shot with slicks though ) If you're careful, you should be fine.

Just my $.02

D

 

all i gotta say is you gotta pay to play. if you don't want your tranny to break then don't power shift it. good luck on your quest but when it comes to drag racing things do break.

 

Just to set it straight- the whole 12's thing is just a rough estimate, and not really a goal. 13's are fine by me. That pic of the spikes on the dyno is crazy, I've never seen anything like that before. Very informative.

I know/seen plenty of people with busted gears who are NA too...and it's scary how weak out 3rd gear is. Here's my idea of how to run a 65 shot and slicks and not be as harsh as I could be. Tell me if this makes sense. Don't launch at redline, try 4000-5000. Have the nitrous cut off 500 rpm before redline so I'm basically shifting like I'm NA, right? Don't bang shifts. I think this would eliminate all the extra torque transfered during the shift from the nitrous...but I could easily be wrong. Any more ideas?

UNCdood: I'm well aware I gotta pay to play. By this, you mean I should be prepared for things to break, right? Cause if you know some magical expensive part that would solve all these problems...then spill it.

 

That's an eye opener. First time I've ever seen a dyno run like that.

 

Well see you don't want to launch too low on slicks because if you DO NOT spin out of the hole you WILL break something. The 5K-5500 launck is fine as long as your clutch can hole it. My ACT held a 5500RPM launch on a 75 shot sith now problem. My idea for the track next time is this. Anyone who has nitrous knows what happens when you hit the gas in first gear on street tires. I think our cars will produce enough tourque on bottom end with nitrous to pull us out of the hole pretty good without a high RPM dump. WHat I am saying is, I am going to try launching just like I take off at a red light, then as soon as I am rolling floor it . I will still get a ton of tourgue transfer but not nearly as much as a clutch dump and the transition will be much smoother. I may only get a 2.0-2.1 60' but hopefuly it will save my tranny. I also granny shift. I too am going to purchase another RPM switch to cut nitrous before redline because on a couple occasions I have hit redline hard due to the MEVI and this is not good AT ALL while spraying.

 

Redline MT90 changed every 25k and before every race season.
Clutchnet.com six puck sprung hub clutch. The PP clamping force is not that high so it wont grab the clutch disc very fast/hard. The ceramic metalic clutch disk is made for ease of drive train. It has a very high friction level, but will slip just a hair on a hard shift, enough to absorb some of the shock.
Launching on slicks at 5500rpms is not too bad, the slicks actually absorb some of the shock. Plus the my clutch absorbes shock too.
Most of all NEVER POWER SHIFT!!!

PS; My clutch is a biotch to drive some times on the street, it moans and chatters, a trade off i can live with.