I thought I posted something about this before but I couldn't find it when I looked.

Have any of you ever heard of a sheet metal or custom intake manifold being made for 4th gens? If so, where?

Would anyone be interested in one if this was an option?

 

if we can get a dual runner system like the mevi but with better low-end power/torque (at least equal to usim) i would jump all over that.

i remember somebody talking about making a custom intake manifold but that's all it was.

 

you might not need a dual runner set up. There are sheet metal intake manifolds for other cars that provide the same or slightly better power on the low end but give a lot more on the top end.

does the MEVI increase power down low as well as up high? If A sheet metal intake can be made that does not have any ill affects towards low end power, would you still be interested?

 

MEVI isn't a dual runner manifold. It's a single runner that has EXTRA space which is opened at high RPMs to change the resonance of the intake.

 

That would be awesome. I'd buy it if it was proven to be effective. I'd need to see some good solid proof though to be convinced. Sounds like wishful thinking though.

 

I dought you could make a manifold any better than the 2000 IM is.
One its plastic power gained there just because no heat soak. Two ,true dual runners. Stock 2000 peak HP 6400 rpm that's got to tell you something.
When i put this on in a few weeks ,I'm going to ask if someone would like to help me. I'm not very good with wiring and if someone has put a VI on and would like to help me I'll pay about $100 to help and I'll drive to your location if you would like. This would be great for someone who would like to put a 2000 manifold on. I would like someone who is at home with wires and doesnt cobb to much.

 

I know this isn't a Maxima intake manifold. I'm posting it to show a couple features it has which can be put applied to any custom intake manifold.



The purpose of the spacer is to prevent heatsoak:

"Comes with a 1 inch thick Phenolic spacer to keep heat from soaking into the manifold along with tuning the ports for best flow..."

This is an intake manifold for 1g DSMs which I am way more familiar with. Like Maxima's, the US version came with 1 runner per cylinder. The JDM version called the cyclone has a dual runner setup which is vaccuum actuated. The cyclone manifold doesn't add horsepower though, it just prevents it from dropping off.

The manifold pictured is the Forrester Racing manifold. On the dyno, it show little loss and a 37hp and 20ft lb torque gain over the stock manifold.


dyno sheet can be found at:

http://www.forresterracingheads.com/products.html

 

I'd be interested as well if somebody could create a manifold that would not loose any power down low. If you guys are aware, there is an option right now, the MEVI. It's not that much better for the 1/4 mile because it takes the power from down low and relocates it up top, some have seen advantages, but mostly ones with JWT ECU's with 7200+ rev limits as opposed to the stock rev limit at 6600rpms. If there was somebody that could create one with the best of both worlds, that would be amazing. BTW:Akidosigh1 i too am somewhat famailiar with 1g DSM's and judging by that piece of dyno you have posted, that car has some mods to it. The MEVI becomes much more of an asset if it's paired with some sort of FI with the Maxima as well.

LEMAR

 

Damn to bad your far away from me, I would be up for the challenge to see if I could wire it up for you.

 

hey kris ive wired a few MEVIs i would be willing to help u... send me a PM if ur interested

 

yeah I'm interested in one too as long as price won't be skyhigh. I would expect it to be lower then the whole mevi package. I wonna be a torque monster, lol.

 

just make sure you can get all that torque to the ground..

 

im interested to see how that turns out with the 2k IM

 

Sheet metal? Wont that sound like crap? Also, ive read about longer and straighter intake runners being great for hp.
A MEVI just doesn't seem economical. $400 US for a .3 s gain in the 1/4 mile....then you need the jwt to harness the high rpm range.
The USIM still has yet to be transplanted into a 4th gen, and people say its impossible because the runners are higher than the hood, which IMO is easily fixed by creating a custom hood.....

 

I guess it depends on what you think is economical. The MEVI/JWT combo offers dramatically more power above 60mph and will drop your ET ~.3 and gain nearly 3mph which is pretty freaking good for an NA mod. How can you deny the power gains when a VQ with the MEVI/JWT is gaining ~20-45fwhp from 5700-7000rpms over the stock manifold? After 60mph, it's no contest against a 4th gen with the stock intake manifold. It gets walked and after 100mph it gets walked real hard.

I studied the VQ-DEK next to my VQ-DE and IMO, the amount of work involved to get it to work just wasn't worth. I took measurements and I don't see how the DE-K variable intake manifold will work because of:

1) the DE-K manifold is deep and the 5th gen engine is slightlt longer than the 4th gens. On the measurements I took, it looked like the DE-K manifold would either rest on the 4th gen firewall or possibly the firewall would need to dented to make it work. Keep in mind a VQ under load and on a shift, will move approximately 1/2" in the mounts back and forth.

2) Height wise, it appeared the DE-K sat about 1/2" too high for the 4th gen hood. It would take a full on cowl hood to make it fit according to my measurements.

3) The emissions and intake equipment of the DE-K is entirely different from the 4th. How will the EGR tube hook up? How about the throttle body or IACV?

4) How about the butterfly setup on the DE-K? That system appeared to be quite complicated and not near the simple operation of the MEVI.

5) Whether you've got a MEVI or DE-K manifold, you'll need the JWT to reap the benefits. That 7000-7200rpm limiter means everything.


For the 5-7fwhp you might gain with the DE-K manifold, assuming you can get it to work correctly, I'd rather just spend $400 on something that was made for the 4th gen and bolts up with no problems and not have to rework the hood or firewall.


Dave

 

Dave B How do you feel about the MEVI with Nitrous Applications...

 

[QUOTE=Dave B]I guess it depends on what you think is economical. The MEVI/JWT combo offers dramatically more power above 60mph and will drop your ET ~.3 and gain nearly 3mph which is pretty freaking good for an NA mod. How can you deny the power gains when a VQ with the MEVI/JWT is gaining ~20-45fwhp from 5700-7000rpms over the stock manifold? After 60mph, it's no contest against a 4th gen with the stock intake manifold. It gets walked and after 100mph it gets walked real hard.

I studied the VQ-DEK next to my VQ-DE and IMO, the amount of work involved to get it to work just wasn't worth. I took measurements and I don't see how the DE-K variable intake manifold will work because of:

1) the DE-K manifold is deep and the 5th gen engine is slightlt longer than the 4th gens. On the measurements I took, it looked like the DE-K manifold would either rest on the 4th gen firewall or possibly the firewall would need to dented to make it work. Keep in mind a VQ under load and on a shift, will move approximately 1/2" in the mounts back and forth. [QUOTE=Dave B]

1) You have to relize one thing . You measured the 2000 manifold on a 2000 engine .We dont have the 2000 engine or position. Here's some measures 96 manifold throttle body side front to rear about 13 1/2 inch other side 14 1/4 inch. Now this may surprise you. 2000 manifold 14 inches and 12 1/2 .Its shorter ! It actually shorter than that i was trying to be fair.



2) It looks like with the big aluminum sensor on the 96 IM their heights are almost the same 6 1/2 and 6 1/4 . Just the manifolds is a big height difference but you have to measure the highest point on the 96. The point on the 2000 is the manifold because the sensors are now in the landfill.



3) I will use the 2000 egr tube ,it may need i little bung put on but thats simple. My solution for TB and IACV very simple . Bolt a three inch block where the 2000 TB goes. like my 3/8 inch pathfinder plate but three inch with a hole in the side. Then the IACV mounting point on the 96 manifold gets cut off and welded to the side of the block. Killed two birds with one stone TB and IACV. Done



4) The VIAS control box just needs a summit rpm switch and vacumm and it will run. People do this manualy with 2000's now. And if your talking about the swirl control valve butterflys on the lower IM they have nothing to do with the 2000 IMK operation;. I have taken them out already and tig welded the holes up.
And the biggest problem you have not even listed injectors.


5) 8000 rpm on the way.
I think gains 12-15 peak . Peak moving up about 700 rpm



You have to let this process take a few months or it will swamp you , its easy if you take one step at a time.

THESE ARE THE SOLUTIONS TO THE 2000 IM PROBLEMS , I'm sorry it was hard to see the first time.

 

Wow, what is happening in that dyno sheet is IDENTICAL to what happens with an MEVI and JWT ECU.

The Forrester manifold makes less power at low RPM, and about the same peak power (about 375whp if you use the same redline as the original dyno without the Forrester manifold). The only place any power is gained is above 114mph (I hate it when they use MPH rather than RPM, that's just retarded). The only reason it's making 405whp whereas the original made 368 is because they revved it out about an extra 1000rpm...

That dyno is the epitome of a manufacturer dyno, where the manufacturer skews things in such a way to make their product look better than it really is. Given the same redline, the gains would be on the order of 7whp.

These results are so identical to those of stock vs MEVI vs MEVI+JWT ECU dyno results it's uncanny.

 

I really don't see where we have the hood clearance for this

 

First off, I know the USIM has been brought up many many times and you guys keep saying its just not possible. The fact remains you are transplanting a maxima part from the SAME VQ30DE with the same flanges, same throttle body, same egr and iacv valve (don't quote me on that one) into a previous model of the SAME engine. Yea yea i know about all the little tweaks the 5th gens have but the USIM is the real issure here. Hearing its too big or its electronics are too complicated is just an excuse for someone not trying it out. Im sure with careful planning and measuring that a USIM could be transferred to a 4th gen without problems.
2ndly the reason people keep bringing the USIM transplant up is because its readily available if you can find a trashed 5th gen. The MEVI does have considerable gains, but like you said you need the ECU to harness the full effect. The USIM as krismax mentioned has its peak gain right at 6450 RPM, which is a big bonus for those of us who don't quite have all that money to throw around for a JWT ECU. Like all maxima projects, past, present, and future somebody has to try it out.
Also im not sure where the dual runners are exactly positioned, but for that 1/2 inch clearance issure, both hood and firewall wise, couldn't the manifold be cut down to size?

Lets hope krismax can get in in there with some ingenuity.

 

How do you plan on cutting the top and back off of an intake manifold. Just grab an axe and chop a half inch off of each dimension or what?

 

Whats with the stupid response? Im just suggesting that if you cut it along the runners and reattach the flange, that it could lower it so it would fit under the hood. Use an axe if you prefer....

 

No i wouldnt tamper with the plastic manifold , to do this you would have to weld plastic . Which is possible but that makes a bigger problem.
But from what i see it will fit under the hood. But if it doesnt .i dont see it as a problem .one cut hole in hood, two cover with plastic bag and duct tape
. Or i'll just use hood spacers and raise the hood a little.

 

Nah, I am telling ya dude, buy a fiberglass hood and let me mold you in a "power buldge"

 

They have fiberglass hoods for are cars? Where?

 

If you say it will fit then I trust you. I dumped the whole project after comparing a 5th gen against my 4th gen. The clearance was just one of the many issues that held me back. Then the complete bolt-on MEVI came out and I've been happy ever since Like you've already stated, it's going to take some custom fabrication to make the DE-K manifold work which is something most guys can't or won't do. Installing an MEVI is somewhat involved and already scares many people from an install standpoint, therefore I could only imagine what people would think trying to install the DE-K manifold.

I forgot to add something else about the DE-K manifold. It's damn near impossible to pick just a used upper manifold and associated hardware from a used DE-K motor. I called 10 junkyards a few years back and none of them wanted to part with the intake manifolds. They all told me the motor was an entire component and would be sold as such. Buying a new DE-K manifold from Nissan is about $1200. Also, what about the warping issue the DE-K manifolds have? I don't know if you follow the 5th gen forum much, but numerous DE-K owners have had VI failures thanks to the plastic manifold warping under extreme heat therefore seizing up the butterfly valves and ultimately breaking the VI system. I think this warpage issue is why Nissan only used these composite manifolds for 2 years. GM has experiences similar warpage issues with the LS1/LS6 plastic intake manifold. Thier fix was to simply beef up the plastic.


Dave

 

The shape and size of the TB, EGR, and IACV are completely different on the 5th gen. On the 4th manifold and MEVI, this stuff bolts right up.

No, DE-K manifolds aren't readily available. Junkyards want to sell complete motors, not just components off the motor.


It's clear you don't understand ideal shift points and why the JWT ECU is so important. Having peak power occuring at 6450rpms with a motor that has a 6500rpm limiter is of no real benefit. Ideal shifts points typically occur 400-1000rpms AFTER peak power depending on gear and the shape of the power curves. The MEVI makes peak power at ~6100rpms and carries that power to nearly 6600rpms before the power starts to drop slowly. The ideal shifts points are ~7200rpms on the 1-2, 7000rpms on the 2-3, and 6800rpms on the 3-4. Having the stock 6500rpm limiter forces a MEVI/DE-K manifold equiped car to "short shift" means the car is not accelerating thru it's ideal power band. The extra 500-700rpms of the JWT ECU's extended rev limiter helps tremendously. With just the MEVI, I was no quicker in the 1/4 mile compared to the stock manifold even though the MEVI gained me 7fwhp in peak power and 20-45fwhp from 5900-6500rpms. Once I added the ECU, my ETs dropped ~.25 seconds and I gained an average of 2.5mph. MEVI or DE-K manifold, the JWT ECU needed. The DE-K 5th gen would be a signficantly quicker car with a 7000rpm limiter.


Dave

 

Dave i have two sitting at home rite now. One cost $100 the other $150. warping I'll just have to learn that first hand.

 

I'm not going to go into detail as to how unfeasible this is. Your post shows that you don't really know what all is involved with this swap, the pcv, iacv, tb and many other parts that rely on their connections to the intake manifold are completely different from the 4th gen to the 5th gen, contrary to what you stated.

 

I liked your other reply better.

 

What other reply

 

Lets not compare DSMs to Maxima's since they are nothing alike. I was just showing a manifold as a reference. If you were to compare the USDM manifold to the JDM Cyclone(variable) manifold to any of the aftermarket sheetmetal manifolds, the sheet metal would win every time. The same could possibly be assumed about US mani - MEVI - sheet metal on a maxima if it is built right.

Do you know a lot about DSMs? Have you ever seen a glowing red exhaust manifold? I can't tell you much for their car but I can give you a few examples on my galant vr4. When I put that intake manifold on, I had to turn my boost down. Less restriction in the intake changed the pressure ratio of the intake/exhaust meaning Less boost and the same amount of power. Back to the glowing manifold question I asked. Just because they went to a higher RPM in the dyno of the racing manifold doesn't mean they changed the redline. In my car, with the stock manifold on it, when I was at higher RPMs the restriction was nothing more than heat building up and would make my exhaust manifold glow red and my engine would hit redline on the temp guage. With the racing manifold, there is less restriction and less heat which means you can go to a higher RPM without worrying about glowing red parts.

also, peak hp isn't everything. there is a lot more area underneath the HP line and there is both small gains and small losses on the low end on that chart. You must love the MEVI. How much does it cost again for everything you need total to install the MEVI? How much labor/ time does it take to install an MEVI? if you could get something that can compare to an MEVI, cost less, and take less work to install would you complain about that?

Honestly, I'm not worried if anyone is worried about the manifold. There are a few designs we are working on and all will be tested on the dyno. If its going to be a negative response, they don't need to be offered to everyone when the design is done. Its not a big deal to me.

 

Sheet metal intakes or any kind of fixed intake manifold is designed to perform in a certain rpm range. If you want to manifold to breath and make big power in the upper rpms, you make the runners short, but you end up loosing low range and some midrange grunt. If you want good midrange you make the runners longer, but end up loosing high rpm power. You can't have at it all with a fixed manifold and that's why the variable-style intake systems are so effective. They employee a system that offers both low/mid/high rpm performance.

As for the DSM example, how can that even apply to an NA motor? Turbo cars make their own atmosphere therefore highly tuned intake runner lengths are pretty much pointless. Look at a dyno plot of SC'd 4th gen with the USIM. Instead of power peaking at 5400rpms and dropping like an anvil thereafter like stock, the SC'd power curve continues climb straight to redline proving that the SC overtakes the flow characteristics of the long runners. Case in point, artifical induction (turbo/SC) pays no real attention the runner length. Your example is of no use to this debate.

As for glowing red exhaust manifolds, I thought that was a symtom of a lean condition.

It's $400 for the MEVI, $80 for vacuum canister/rpm switch/vacuum line, and $550 for the ECU. You're looking at a total cost of ~$1030. What you and a bunch of other people continue to fail to understand is that the $550 ECU is MANDATORY (I don't know how times I have to say this). The extra 500-700rpms means EVERYTHING. You need the ECU whether you've got the MEVI/DE-K or some strange high flow sheet metal intake manifold. The extended rev limiter allows you to stay in the heart of the powerband instead of dropping out of it on shifts. So really the ONLY freaking debate should be the cost of the MEVI which comes out to be ~$500 for everything. It bolts on easily and is PROVEN to work. $500 is pretty cheap for a proven bolt-on mod that significantly changes the VQ's character for the better.


Dave

 

Did something I said offend you? I was making a comment on how the dyno plots of the Forrester intake manifold and the MEVI look identical. I was making no comment about the usefulness of the Forrester manifold. My only comment was that comparing apples to apples, the Forrester manifold, with the same redline as the stock manifold, would show no significant gains in terms of peak hp. The gains are very significant however when you raise the redline, which is IDENTICAL to what happens with the MEVI. You do realize that right?

Don't try explaining to me the advantages of area under the curve vs peak horsepower. I gained TWO, yes TWO peak HP when I swapped in my MEVI and JWT ECU, that doesn't sound like much to the uneducated. And yet I gained 4mph and .4 seconds in the 1/4 mile. I am WELL versed in the knowledge of area under the curve as opposed to peak HP gains. Nothing you can say to me with regards to area under the curve vs peak hp gains is teaching me anything knew.

Your comment that started out "Do you know much about DSM's, have you ever seen a glowing red exhaust manifold?" is simply you trying to put someone else down because you think you know more than them. Yes I have seen a glowing red exhaust manifold, and I am aware of it's causes. Yes I do know a bit about DSMs, admittedly not as much as someone who has owned and modified one, but I am not without any modicum of knowledge about them. I do have friends who own them and race them, including one in the 11s, who's Cyclone motor I just happened to help install about 3 years ago at about 4am at the shop I used to work at.

Anyhow, enough of the bickering. You took exception to comments which you misconstrued as bashing of a product, where what I was actually doing was simply showing parallels between the product you mentioned and an existing product for the maxima because I thought it was interesting, and NOT because i was in any way, shape or form trying to say one product was more useful than another. However some explanation needed to be made for those who aren't as well versed in reading dyno plots, and I made those explanations. The forrester intake would have nothing in common with a sheet metal maxima intake manifold, so don't misconstrue my comments about the forrester intake manifold as a bash of your attempt to get a maxima sheet metal intake manifold brought to market.

Your last comment about negative responses and not offering them to the public is just childish crybaby stuff. "If you don't like it you can't have one and I will keep them all to myself" is basically what you are saying. That's not good business if you are trying to market a product. Please try to not be so sensitive, especially when it is your mistake that you THINK I am bashing a product, when in actuality I was not stating any opinion on it at all. I was just saying it looked alot like a product I knew about that is already available for the maxima.

Good luck with your project, I hope you are able to bring something new and improved to the maxima community. Good day.

Neal

 

And one more thing. I really do hope you or someone else is able to make something better and cheaper than the MEVI. There is always room for improvement. I like my MEVI but if something better and cheaper were available I would certainly recommend it to people. I just get annoyed when people take simple comments which have no malicious intent whatsoever, and take them as a person insult. People can become overly sensitive on the internet because you can't hear a person's voice and know exactly the context in which they are talking. Try to read through things objectively, rather than assuming that anything not praising you is trying to insult you or your product.

 

I thought I said lets not compare DSMs to Maxima's since they are nothing alike, meaning turbo vs NA. I was just showing the manifold as an example of an aftermarket manifold, more specifically the spacer that came with it that helps prevent heatsoak since it was mentioned in this thread somewhere. And since you said turbo/superchargers over come runner lengths, how is it that the stock intake manifold on the turbo DSM loses power at higher rpm but the aftermarket one keeps gaining? I think that has something to do with with artificial induction and the runner lengths. Regardless, there are aftermarket intake manifolds for NA cars which show gains as well so its not only a forced induction thing. who cares about low rpm? do most of you do your racing between 1000-4500 rpm??? do any of you? Maybe I should call it a racing intake manifold so I can get away with low rpm loss. I'm not going to disagree with having a higher rev limiter to take advantage of the gains.



Nealoc187, glowing red parts are not always a result of running lean. I can garuntee I was nowhere near lean. I never maxed out my injectors, never hit fuel cut, my trims were good and whenever i raced, i ran 107 and turned my fuel settings up a few percent across the AFC. With the stock exhaust and slow driving, my manifold would glow with only 9psi which is less than stock boost for my car so i doubt it was in a lean condition, at least not on the datalogger.

and about the manifold: we are making them for a friends max, if it works out to the better or worse, dynos will be posted when everything it completed.