hey all,

i am thinking of getting my suspension done. i would like the car to be more like oem. so would GR-2 and Progress Tech springs be good or GR-2 and Maxspeed? please give me some feedback. or recommendations.

thanks in advance

 

i just got tien h-techs and gr-2's and i love it so far, the front end is lower and is solid but the rear is more like stock

 

H&R for comfort.

 

The spring rate is 30% higher than OEM and it's a shorter spring.

FYI: If you buy sport springs, buy ajustable shocks. Do not buy OEM replacements such as the GR-2 or HP's.

 

H&Rs and illuminas or agx if u want comfort

 

how are eibachs? any comfort like h&rs?

 

eibachs are very stiff - not want you want if youre looking for a more OEM type ride.

Im a big advocate for the progress - i think they are the most under-rated springs out there. I love them. great ride and handling.

 

+1 for the HR's. With my illuminas the ride is great. Set to 1 all around, the ride is very comfy- just a little stiffer than stock. Remember, if you go lower the, the spring automaticly is gonna be harder so your car doesnt with the pavement with every bump. I think the HR's are progressive too. I think thats what I was told when I got them put in. I have not had a single problem since NJmaxseltd did the installin april. He really does a job well done.

 

+2 for the H&Rs w/ illuminas. It actually feels smoother than stock. Maybe because my struts were going bad. I really recommend these for comfort.

 

h&r's are only 30% stiffer than stock springs as opposed to the eibach's 50% for the same drop.. gr-2's are probably the hardest riding struts you can buy, thats why they are the cheapest... they are horrible. i had them for a long time with my h&r's and it got to the point i was embarassed to even have other people in my car. the only way to go is with the illumia's.. you will not regret spending the extra cash trust me.. its a world of a difference.

 

I have the GR2 on the front with original springs so as far as shocks go I like them even though they are stiff specially during cold weather (early morning)

 

dont use gr2s if you want a nice ride. get tockicos, pair them with a spring of your choice.

 

my mechanic says tockicos are trash kybs dont blow so fast, i live in philly and the streets are the wurst tockicos only last 10 thousand miles. it all depends on what u drivin on

 

I'm still biased to progress springs and kyb agx's. I have had them for over 4 years now and still rides better then stock and any other suspension I have been in. Also has the rear up an inch then the front which gives it a perfect sport look. Plus when its loaded with people it sits level instead of sagging in the rear which a lot of lowered maxi's do.

 

stuntin 101 ...when you say H&Rs are 30% stiffer than stock would you be talking about SE suspension?

 

Try the same GR-2's with the OEM springs or H&R OE Springs (if such a spring was made for the 4th gen.).

The GR-2's are the same as the AGX's on 2/4. The problem with the ride on GR-2's isn't because they are hard riding dampers; it's because they weren't valved properly to the H&R Sport's spring rate.

The GR-2's on the OEM springs ride fantastic. A heck of a lot better than the stock struts/shocks.

I'm also guessing that the reason why your GR-2's were embarrassing is because they were probably failing (worn or weakened) and the struts/shocks were not able to dampen energy properly. They were not engineered to dampen the energy transferred by having 30% stiffer than OEM springs. (Unrelated to H&R Sport springs, when one drops their Max more than 1.5" *cough* Tein *cough*, compression and rebound will not work as designed by KYB engineers).

Body motion, or tire/wheel motion over a bump in the road, transmits kinetic energy or load to compress the spring. When the load is reduced the spring decompresses, or releases its stored energy, and returns to its normal position or height...

But something is needed to eliminate too much motion. Without proper control, the suspension motion will become excessive and even violent. The vehicle chassis (body) will wallow and pitch and the tires will constantly lose contact with the road surface.

Enter the shock absorber or damper... Shocks use hydraulic friction to damp out or resist suspension motion... Shocks remove kinetic (or motion energy,) from the suspension and turn it into heat. That in turn is dissipated into the air.

When I called KYB tech support, the impression that I got was that they have a love/hate relationship with the tuning community. They seemed happy to sell their product but the frustration I heard in their voices when discussing aftermarket drops and spring rates was obvious.

My suggestion for anyone thinking about purchasing a KYB product or to anyone who already has a KYB product and is thinking about purchasing sport springs, to call KYB tech support first. They have some definite opinions on what to do and what not to do and seemed to be pretty familiar with most after-market tuner applications. In addition, this board indirectly supports what KYB techs have told me.

Everytime we change a suspension component on our Maximas, there is a domino effect. Everything on our cars was designed and engineered to work together in a very precise way. When you see a New G35 riding on those 19" forged Volks with 225/40r19 tires, the entire suspension of that car was designed to accomodate tires with barely any sidewall. Our Maximas... not so much.

The one thing that has stuck in my head over the years is that energy absorbed from the road has to go somewhere. Reading all the suspension posts over the last couple of years will reveal precisely where that energy goes.

The GR-2 is a great-quality product that is often misused.

A good link:
http://kitcarmag.com/techarticles/142_0405_shocks/

Several of the shock absorber manufacturers offer adjustable shocks. The customer can adjust the rebound and compression dampening qualities on a double-adjustable shock. While on a single-adjustable shock, normally just the rebound is adjustable. An adjustable shock offers a number of benefits. First, if the spring sages or loses rate, the shock's compression can be increased to add stiffness to the ride and make up for lost spring rate. Secondly, if you install stiffer springs, there is no need to buy a new shock. The rebound dampening ability of the existing adjustable shock can be tuned to control the extra energy of the new spring. As the spring rate goes up, you need more rebound dampening to control the greater capability of the higher rate spring. The third reason for adjustable shocks is the ability to tune the suspension. You can change the ride and performance characteristics of the vehicle by turning the adjustor on the shock. Remember the spring rate is the most important thing in changing a suspension's handling characteristics. The shock is a fine-tuning tool...

"We didn't go with an adjustable shock because of the cost. Most people use the spring rates we offer and wouldn't be able to tune the shock to the springs and get a combination that works well. For most people, it is easier for us to do the work for them rather than have them figure out what adjustments to put on the shock. We work with shock companies and compare shocks back-to-back in order to see what valving works the best."

Most street rods or kit cars are over-sprung. All the manufacturers are building more rebound than compression dampening into their shocks, because as the spring compresses, it gets stiffer. The shock does not or cannot control that movement effectively. It is more important to control all of the compressed energy as the spring rebounds. The theory is to let the spring do the compression work and let the shock take care of the transition from bump to rebound.

Another good link:
http://carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0312_shock/

 

im not even going to read all of that, especially when your using another persons experience, and not your own. when i had gr-2's on my cars (i had 2 max's with the h&r/gr-2 set-up) you could not even push the nose of my car down to perform a bounce test. thats how stiff they are. i had 04 rims and tires which are 245/45/18 on the car for a week, and they never even scraped. they should have. thats because those struts barley even move. thats how stiff they are.

the only time i would recomend gr2's is to someone who wanted to stay on stock springs, with stock rim/tire combo. thats because the the stiff kybs will eliminate alot of body roll, and give a tighter ride. BUT- the stock spring ratio, and the large sidewall height of the tires will still give enough flex and travel to make the ride comfortable.

i had gr's on my old monte ss, with 15" rims and tires, and that car rode like it was on rails with only using gr2's. i had tokico blues on my typhoon, and blew out 2 sets in the front.

when i had the illumina's finally installed, the difference was immense. i could notice the difference as soon as i opened the door and sat in the car. understand this- if i can notice in a difference in a strut before i even start my car, let alone drive it, you had better belive its a HUGE difference.

finally let me say this, i dont give out advice on struts/suspension set-ups just from what i've read other people write on this board. i give it out from the knowledge and experience ive had by having bought and used alot of these products over the years. that being said, for this car, with lowering springs, illumia's are the best strut you can buy.

the biggest mistake you can make on this message board is by listening to, and buying things, based on what people say that have no experience with what your asking about.

 

Tokicos are trash huh...then that's why Nissan uses Tokico shocks/struts as OEM. Just goes to show you how much your mechanic knows!

P.S. My OEM shocks lasted 85k driven on harsh Philly streets and I expect the Illuminas to last the same or longer.

 

get in anyone's car thay has illumina's. drive around with them set on "1", and them turn them up to "5". you tell me if thats fine tuning.

 

You probably shouldn't comment on a post that you haven't read. Especially since you don't really know what you are posting about. The proof is in your own words.

i had gr-2's on my cars (i had 2 max's with the h&r/gr-2 set-up) you could not even push the nose of my car down to perform a bounce test. thats how stiff they are. i had 04 rims and tires which are 245/45/18 on the car for a week, and they never even scraped. they should have. thats because those struts barley even move. thats how stiff they are.

The reason why I haven't had your experience is because I wouldn't match GR-2's to H&R springs in the first place.

You may want to go back and read what I typed. You could benefit from it.

 

The first thing you did was to deploy an ad hominem. You changed the subject from my post to me personally. You have not proven the truth or falsity of my post. You have merely tried to discredit me. Whether or not I've learned to valve shocks to springs through studying basic suspension principles or through personal trial and error is irrelevant.

In your second post you are attempting to deploy something that is commonly called a "strawman" argument. You are ignoring my actual position and instead you are substituting an exaggerated and out of context version of what I was posting in the interrogative form of a sentence. Plus, it is a non-sequitur. How is purchasing adjustable struts/shocks and setting them to the highest setting relevant to what I've posted? Get back to the subject at hand.

Here is what I posted:
I'm also guessing that the reason why your GR-2's were embarrassing is because they were probably failing (worn or weakened) and the struts/shocks were not able to dampen energy properly. They were not engineered to dampen the energy transferred by having 30% stiffer than OEM springs.

Would you like to try again?

Not only did I address why you had the problem that you did but I also took the time to back it up with factual information. Your ride handling issue was not because the GR-2's were too stiff for you springs. It was because your springs were too stiff for your dampners. Do you understand what dampners do? Good grief. No wonder you got your posting privileges suspended.

 

I will shorten my post:

GR-2's are only 15% stiffer than OEM. They were designed to be OEM replacements. 15% stiffer is going to feel a bit sportier.

The purpose of a strut/shock is to dampen the oscillation of the coil spring. You hit a bump, the spring compresses absorbing the energy from the bump and then rebounds. The struts/shocks job is to resist the spring's up and down movement and disperse or dampen that energy. The struts/shocks are what keep your wheels on the road. In short, springs absorb energy and shocks disperse it.

The reason why so many GR-2's fail early is because they are mismatched with too aggressive an aftermarket spring. The higher the spring rate, the more energy the strut/shock has to dampen. Springs that are 30% stiffer than stock are going to cause an OEM replacement shock/strut such as the GR-2 to wear and fail pretty quickly. The GR-2 was not designed for springs with a spring rate 15% greater than stock. That's where the adjustables come in and why Stuntin' was having a bad experience until he bought some. His bad experience was not because his GR-2's were too stiff. It's because they were not able to properly dampen the spring oscillations and prematurely wore out. This would not have been an issue if he had stayed with the stock springs or had purchased H&R OE springs rather than H&R sport springs. (H&R OE springs are not available for the 4th gen).

im not even going to read all of that, especially when your using another persons experience, and not your own. when i had gr-2's on my cars (i had 2 max's with the h&r/gr-2 set-up) you could not even push the nose of my car down to perform a bounce test. thats how stiff they are. i had 04 rims and tires which are 245/45/18 on the car for a week, and they never even scraped. they should have. thats because those struts barley even move. thats how stiff they are.

the only time i would recomend gr2's is to someone who wanted to stay on stock springs, with stock rim/tire combo. thats because the the stiff kybs will eliminate alot of body roll, and give a tighter ride. BUT- the stock spring ratio, and the large sidewall height of the tires will still give enough flex and travel to make the ride comfortable.

i had gr's on my old monte ss, with 15" rims and tires, and that car rode like it was on rails with only using gr2's. i had tokico blues on my typhoon, and blew out 2 sets in the front.

when i had the illumina's finally installed, the difference was immense. i could notice the difference as soon as i opened the door and sat in the car. understand this- if i can notice in a difference in a strut before i even start my car, let alone drive it, you had better belive its a HUGE difference.

finally let me say this, i dont give out advice on struts/suspension set-ups just from what i've read other people write on this board. i give it out from the knowledge and experience ive had by having bought and used alot of these products over the years. that being said, for this car, with lowering springs, illumia's are the best strut you can buy.

the biggest mistake you can make on this message board is by listening to, and buying things, based on what people say that have no experience with what your asking about.

 

if they were worn or weakened, that would make them less stiff.

once again, if they were designed to work with a stock spring ratio, these would act less stiff since they were being combined with a stiffer (more forcefull) spring. ..struts that are not designed to work with lowering springs typically blow prematurely, such as oem, and toykico blues. if this is your argument, please tell me exactly what spring these SHOULD be paired with, since this thread was started on the question of what was the most comfortable lowering springs.


i can go all nite..


they were suspended because i spoke up about people being taken advantage of.. yours should be suspended out of pure stupidity.


when the kyb agx's came out people ran to them over the gr2's. there was good reason for that. now people flock to illumina's.. theres a good reason for that too.. if you think your gr-2's are the best sturts around, its obviously becuase you have never been exposed to the illumina's b4.

 

this is not accurate.. i dotn care what info you read, or what kyb says they are.. get an oem strut, and a gr2 off the car and try to compress them on the ground..

 

from what your are saying, my "performance adjustable struts" should be stiffer than my "stock replacement" gr2.


listen, im not gonna argue with you anymore.. buy both of them, drive around, and then get back to me.. you cannot substitute on hand experience with reading a few articles.

 

GR2's are not that bad. Ive been riding on GR2's with Maxspeed springs and it has been fine. Everyone that rode my car says that its smooth. It is nowhere near harsh on bumpy roads, but in the winter it does get a little stiff only because its 20 degrees out! BTW KYB products are not crap compared to Tokico's. Toyota uses KYB struts on their cars. Each company has their good and bad products within the line. Just because tokico's are used in oem setups dont mean ****. I personally wouldnt waste the extra money on adjustables unless you are hardcore autocross or drag.

 

i cant wait for someone who use to have g2-2's and then went to the illumia's to step into this... its only a matter of time.

 

Let's assume that I am stupid for a moment. Why don't you call KYB tech support for yourself and ask them why they don't recommend the GR-2 with H&R Sport springs?

It's obvious from your posts that you don't know what function struts/shocks perform. (Even though I've explained it a few times over and included links to explanations). I also quoted what function struts/shocks perform directly from the Tokico website. (BTW, you would have had the same problem with Tokico HP's paired with H&R Sport springs).

I think you just like to argue out of boredom or you aren't capable of understanding how automobile suspensions work. There isn't much more I can explain that I have not already. So call KYB. Hear it from them directly.

The problem you experienced is because you used the wrong struts/shocks with the wrong springs. It's that simple. Through simple trial, error, and wasted money, you found a combination that works. You could have just as easily did a little research first and saved yourself some time and cash.

You don't have to take my word for it. Read the links I have provided. Or you know, you can just remain convinced that the GR-2's were too "stiff"...

I have a better idea. Why don't you explain to me how struts/shocks work with springs then?

 

this is not accurate.. i dotn care what info you read, or what kyb says they are.. get an oem strut, and a gr2 off the car and try to compress them on the ground..

Huh? So what you are posting is that KYB is wrong and you are right... but more importantly, why don't you explain to me what the point would be of compressing an OEM strut and a GR-2 strut on the ground?

from what your are saying, my "performance adjustable struts" should be stiffer than my "stock replacement" gr2.

They can be. That's why they are adjustable.

listen, im not gonna argue with you anymore.. buy both of them, drive around, and then get back to me.. you cannot substitute on hand experience with reading a few articles.

Yeah actually, I can and so can you. Experience has nothing to do with it. These are basic suspension principles. Your own posts have only further reinforced what I've posted. If you have sports springs, buy adjustable struts/shocks.I've also explained why you had such a bad experience with your GR-2's. Ride in a Maxima with stock springs and new GR-2's. I guarantee you that the ride is not harsh or "stiff". Just sporty.

To recap, your GR-2's could not properly dampen the kinetic energy from your H&R springs. The GR-2 is a good product that was used in a way that it was not engineered for. You would have had the same problem with Tokico HP's.

If you search the board, there is an overwhelming amount of anecdotal evidence to support what I have posted. If that fails, you can also call KYB and ask them. Oh wait, you've already established that KYB is lying or perhaps confused. That you've already compressed stuts on the ground in a comparison test to prove it. That reading links explaining how struts and springs work together is no substitute for trial and error...

You know, I post this information to help people. It makes me feel good thinking that I might be saving someone some time, hassle, and money. I suspect that you are posting for the same reason. The end result is the same. We both agree that adjustable shocks are the appropriate choice for aftermarket springs. I just disagree with your assessment of why and I definitely disagree with you that GR-2's are stiff or are not a quality product. They are an excellent OEM replacement and were engineered to be valved with OEM springs.

 

This thread is officially a waste of time/bandwidth.

 

To recap, your GR-2's could not properly dampen the kinetic energy from your H&R springs. The GR-2 is a good product that was used in a way that it was not engineered for. You would have had the same problem with Tokico HP's.

this is not true.. ask anyone who has had them. hp's are a stock replacment, and typically blow prematurely. hp's and gr-2's do not give the same ride.


from what your are saying, my "performance adjustable struts" should be stiffer than my "stock replacement" gr2.

Experience has nothing to do with it. These are basic suspension principles. Your own posts have only further reinforced what I've posted. If you have sports springs, buy adjustable struts/shocks.

thank you.. thats what this thread originally started out as.

I've also explained why you had such a bad experience with your GR-2's. Ride in a Maxima with stock springs and new GR-2's. I guarantee you that the ride is not harsh or "stiff". Just sporty

i already said this, and i explained to you why the results are as such



They can be. That's why they are adjustable.

i would have to adjust my illumina's to "4" to be as stiff as the gr-2's were


why don't you explain to me what the point would be of compressing an OEM strut and a GR-2 strut on the ground?

so you can actually see the difference in the amount of force it takes to compress them. ever see the stand set up in tire shops so you can compare a worn strut to a new one. same concept. but you should have know that from all the articles you have read.


Let's assume that I am stupid for a moment. Why don't you call KYB tech support for yourself and ask them why they don't recommend the GR-2 with H&R Sport springs?

illumina's and agx's did not exist for maxima's 4/5 years ago.. what do you think kyb use to recomend people buy when using lowering springs.??

Huh? So what you are posting is that KYB is wrong and you are right... but more importantly, why don't you explain to me what the point would be of compressing an OEM strut and a GR-2 strut on the ground?

yes.. do you think its uncommon for companies to stretch the truth about their products?

 

Between the two of us, I am indeed the more foolish.

 

I ran tokicos with my H&Rs for 2 years and they did great. The HPs are designed for drops of 1.5 or less. Read the forums before you make assumptions but I do agree that the adjustables are a nice way to go for even further ride tuning

 

Why do you act like a tool in every post? The HPs are fine for a minimal drop, read the warranty. They are warrantied lifetime for drops of 1.5" or less,

There are hundreds of org members using that same drop with fine results after many years of use, but I guess we are all wrong since you said so....

Long Live the Icey Hot Stunna

 

I didn't make any assumptions.The 1.5" max drop is vehicle dependent. The Maxima is warrantied to 1.5". However, it's not the drop that is the issue. It is the spring rate.

The forums are not the best source of suspension information. Most of the opinions are based on anecdotal experience and subjective bias. I called the manufacturers and asked. Their information is empirical.

As far as your experience, you've had better luck than others. This forum and other Maxima forums reveal a fair number of prematurely worn or blown HP's with H&R springs. Some of the factors that are not revealed in posts I've read are the size of the wheel, the complete tire size, and whether or not the vehicle is manual or auto (weight). Also, I would imagine that road condition is also a factor.

It is my understanding that HP's have less damping force than GR-2's. So I would guess that HP's would wear quicker with H&R springs than GR-2's. I'm actually not sure so I will call tomorrow and find out. I do know for a fact that GR-2's are not recommended with H&R sport springs. KYB tech support is the reason my H&R springs are sitting in a box in my living room gathering dust. They were very informative.

Additional info to back up my earlier posts to Icey Hot Stuntin':

Q. Can I use sport lowering springs with my original shocks?
A. Very few original shocks have the damping necessary to properly control sport lowering springs. Even if they work reasonably well when first installed, the higher rate springs will cause the factory shocks to wear much faster.

Q. How low can I go?
A. The amount a vehicle can be safely lowered varies by make and model. Cars can generally be lowered by 1 or 2 inches. Some trucks can be lowered by as much as 6 inches. Excessive lowering can and does cause a number of problems. Suspension was designed to allow the tires to move independently from the chassis. If too much travel is removed due to excess lowering, or springs that are too stiff, problems can range from a harsh ride to actual damage to vehicle components.

Some of the problems include:

1. Harsh ride with poor adhesion
2. Excess wear on CV or U-joints
3. Poor alignment
4. Shock failure
5. Stress cracks in the chassis or suspension
6. Excess noise and rattles in the chassis
7. A dangerous lack of control on rough roads

Using higher rate sport-springs, in combination with worn or weak shocks or struts, can cause handling and vehicle control problems.

Tokico: 800-548-2549
KYB: 630-620-5555

They actually have people to answer questions and they are very knowledgeable about their products and tuner applications.

 

do people use them, yes they do.. the fact of the matter is they WILL blow more quickly than other struts. you have to realize something. not everyone is going to have the same results. a guy that only drives his car 20 miles a day on nice smooth country roads of course is going to last alot longer than the next guy that has a 100 mile commute to work driving on torn up city roads. people on stock spring/shock combos have gone 10+ years on original equipment. i dont recall ever seeing anyone dropped with blues lasting as long as that, even in the rarest of cases.

tell you another thing.. if you think you can listen to every peice of information the vendor provides you, you have a hard lesson to learn my friend. historically speaking, almost everything in the automotive field is over/under-rated for a purpose. car companies have done it, and continue to do it to this day. back in muscle cars days motors were under-rated all the time on purpose. the audi tt is considered a 4 passanger vechile for insurance purposes only. i dare you to try and fit even a 3rd passanger in that car. hyundia found itself in a class action lawsuit for over rating the stats on there cars. tell you what.. take a meter and hook them up to any aftermarket headlight bulb and see it they draw the 65/45 watt rating they are given. the owner and developer of the the RIPP supercharging systems (that i know personally) under-rates the output of his systems.

at any rate, it is a know fact about hp's that has been discussed and deterimned way before you got on here.

 

gle suspension gives u comfort