I've been riding on ksports wiht 1.5 finger gap all around for about a month, changing the height a little sometimes. Last night i put the fronts up all the way, so the control arms are now almost exactly horizontal, and the car handles and feels 100x better, its not even a comparison. There is about a 3 finger gap in front, and i matched it in back, making it a little higher. I love how it handles but dont like how it looks at all. I know nobody has ever raised their control arm mounting points.

My question is this: Is the control arm position the thing that changed my handling so much, or is it something else?

If it is, i'm going to try to hack up some higher mouting point. If i could get this to work, my car would also benefit from having a lower center of gravity because i would be able to keep it much lower without sacrificing handling.

 

The lower control arm should never be more than horizontal (i.e. pointing up) as a "rule of thumb"...

I don't think it's feasible to "fabricate" raising the mounting points. I'm not saying that it's not possible. Most things are possible with enough money. Just be careful you hire an expert fabricator/welder... There's nothing like a missing lower control arm to spoil your day (and maybe others)....

 

Why don't you make a ball joint and tie rod end extenders. If you lower the mounting points on the spindle you can lower your car and you won't have bump steer and your car will handle amazing because the control arms will be parrallel to the ground. I've always wanted to do this, but I haven't gotten around to it.

 

There's been on & off discussions about changing exactly that with no success yet.
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=493710

 

The ball joint extender sounds very interesting. I'll see what i can hack up in the next few months, i'll let you guys know if i get anything presentable.

 

I just thought of an idea, seems foolproof...it would fix all CV problems with a SLAMMED car, and would keep the control arms/tie rods in the same positions as stock.....If you guys wait a few weeks, i should have mine already made.

 

Report findings and impressions, I would be very interested.

 

Give me a few weeks, this idea just came to me, there are a lot of big bugs i need to work out beforehand.

 

Are you planning on relocating the control arm as well?

 

oooooooohh, the anticipation.......

 

Nah, its not that complicated, i hope...i havent gotten under my car to measure everything yet, and i'm having some big doubts about my idea working. Tomorrow i'll try to hack something up at my friend's house and see if it works...probably wont, but i'll try anyway, doesnt hurt to experiment until i have something.

 

wow, this is awesome.... definitely keep us updated!

 

someone should think about doing THIS to control arms:
http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread.php?t=113630

Haven't read the "ball-joint extender" thread, will do it, but it's kind of the same concept overall.


And yes, 4x4Max, it is very much the reason your handling increased. Find an old copy of SCC's Making It Stick articles and they tell you about roll center, roll couple and the like.

 

Don't you guys wish you had 3rd gen control arms with removeable ball joints?

 

The tie-rod vertically adjusts in stock form? +1 point for 3rd gen being the true 4DSC.

Oh, and that SR20 thread looks like the same car profiled in SportCompactCar in 8/05 in part3 of the Making it Stick series.
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=413359

 

Matt, have you measured your camber curve before and after you did that control arm mod. The reason i ask is because i considered doing that but the more i thought about it, you really need to lower the pivot point itself to get any real gains. by doing this mod it only changes the shape of the control arm and not the pivot point. this means the effective control arm is exactly the same. although i would like to see the camber curve over the entire suspension travel for both the stock control arm and this modification.

I do like what you did with that tie rod tho, that will make a difference with bumpsteer

 

Those aren't stock tie rod ends.. More BlehmCo tomfoolery.

And yes, that's the same car. The car pictured there is one of Mike Kojima's SE-R track toys, who is the author of those articles.


gdmax, the camber curve does indeed change by moving the ball joint like i did. In fact, many of the aftermarket control arms for stock cars use a ball joint that's threaded on the outer housing, so they can move it up and down inside the control arm to change the camber curve.
http://www.colemanracing.com/catalog...?cPath=49_1317
http://www.colemanracing.com/catalog...p?cPath=49_709

As for what it did to mine, I have not measured yet, but it has DRAMATICALLY reduced my bumpsteer- way more than the adjustable tie rod ends ever did alone.

eventually, I'll put all of this on a machine and play with it and get everything perfect. the main thing I'm looking for right now is for the car to simply drive in a straight line without eating tires every 5000 miles like it has been.

 

The aftermarket ball joints all seem to focus on moving the pivot point down, the spacers under the ball joint do not actually move the pivot point.

on this diagram (looking at the suspension from the front of the car) the dashed line is the effective control arm, the circles are the pivot points. regardless of the actual shape of the control arm, the pivot points are what decides the motion of the suspension and the camber curve



i would like to see a camber comparison, it is possible that the spacers help the camber curve, but i dont think the spacers will have much affect on the camber

 

lol I wrote those articles on Nissanclub. Well, I copied them, Mike Kojima wrote them.


From what it seems to me, the key is moving the control arm. So whether you have control arm to ball joint spacer or an aftermarket arm with an adjustable length ball joint, it's the matter of getting the control arm's angle in relativity to being horizontal or vertical that will change your car in terms of camber changes and suspension travel.


Matt93SE, are you the Blehmco guy? If so I'm going to PM you.

 

Matt93SE = Blehmco. Matt, do you have time to start working on ball-joint extenders for 4th/5th gens? There's a lot of interest (http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=493710) and, depending on price, I think you could sell a LOT of them on the Org once word got around that it was a must-have mod for lowered cars to handle well.

Also, someone who's registered on SR20forum.com should reply to that thread (http://www.sr20forum.com/showthread.php?t=113630) and ask if the guy can fab something up for 95-03 Maximas since I believe our front suspension is very similar to theirs.

I just want SOMEone to make these for the Maxima soon!

Red Lion, what kind of Nissan do you drive/mod?

 

I drive a 95 Altima. You Max guys may not realize but the Altima and the Maxima are almost 99% the same from the firewall forward, minus the engines of course. Suspension is very similar, including the subframe, control arms, knuckles, and a lot of engine bay accessories.

Which brings me to follow up what you just said, if Matt made some arms similar to those on Mike Kojima's Dog 2 (in the link I posted) I know for a fact that he'd not only have Maxima support but Altima enthusiast support as well. The only difference between Altima and Maxima front control arms are that Max arms are .5" longer, but otherwise identical.



EDIT< I can't PM yet lol. Matt, do you still make the 4th Gen Version II subframe braces?

 

You are correct, but what i am saying is that the spacer does not change the pivot points, look at the middle diagram. the dashed line connects the pivot points which are in the exact location as the stock points. no matter what shape you make the control arm, the straight line that connects the pivot points determines how the suspension will move. this means the suspension will follow the same curve as the stock layout as it moves up and down. the middle control arm is effectively the same as the stock although it looks more horizontal because it is shaped like an L. the diagram on the right has the pivot moved so the arm actually is more horizontal. the pivot points are key here and the spacer does not change them.

 

Hmm, that makes sense, gdmax. So we need to find or make an ball joint with a higher attachment point for the knuckle?

Red Lion, I knew the 1st gen Altima was similar to the 4th gen Maxima but thanks for the info that the suspensions are nearly identical. Someone needs to start making these, that's quite a potential market...all FWD Nissans, essentially.

 

Exactly

 

The big issue is that the angle of the control arm vs. the car is what affects the camber curve. I am not worried about static camber. We have several (i.e. three) easy ways of adjusting static camber already. crash bolts/slotted strut holes, slotted upper holes on the strut tower, camber plates.

and not all of the aftermarket ball joints move the pivot point. several move the control arm by adjusting the ball joint up/down relative to the control arm.
And yes, I know in theory it sounds like the parts I've made shouldn't do any good, since you're only changing the shape of the control arm and not the angles it actually travels on.. But again, I added those to my car and the handling characteristics are DRAMATICALLY improved.. I don't need hundreds of dollars of shop costs using high $$ alignment equipment to tell me that. to put numbers on paper, sure... but again.. do you trust what's actually happening on your car, or what the papers say is supposed to happen.

 

Let me say this, i would love for this to work and see gains. i welcome any improvement to our handling. i just wanted to explain why i dont think it would make much difference. if it really does work despite the theory, thats great, us third gens can get a very cheap adjustable ball joint with a little custom fabrication.

how did the handling characteristics change, did you see improved tire wear, more predictable breakaway, reduced understeer, improved PAX/roadcoarse times?

my main concern is improving my PAX so if this could do that i am willing try it

i would still like to see a camber comparison of the this mod at ride height and full compression to a stock control arm at ride height and full compression. if i end up doing this i will measure camber at these positions and post them on here

 

The enthusiasts for these parts are there, but unfortunately the money simply is not. the development costs to make a control arm like these would be more than the feasible selling price of these parts. I've been through this in my mind several times. it would be nice to have these, but for the cost involved, I just don't see it happening.

and yes, I'm the BlehmCo guy.
I'm currently OOS on the 4th gen bars, but I'm working with a local fab shop currently training them to make the parts for me. unfortunately, this is a slow tedious process and the only way I can do that is to take time off my day job. so for ever day I go over there and show them how to make one $175 part, I lose about $250 out of time off my day job. eventually I'll get them done, but it's simply a matter of being able to do two jobs at once..

 

I think I see what you mean now, in layman's terms you're talking about where the ball joint connects to the knuckle, am I right?


Matt: I ask about the subframe brace because I have a feeling, if I'm right and the Altima/Maxima subframes are as close to being identical as I think they are, that your Version 2 subframe brace might work on an Altima undercarriage. What I wanted to ask was plain and simply, could I buy a Subframe brace from you, test it out, and if it doesn't work send it back and get my money back (me paying shipping of course)? If it does turn out to work, I know a lot of people on NissanClub.com that would love to buy your brace.

 

just read this after I posted, I got ya. Get back to me on the bar though, I'd love to have another subframe brace option and I'm sure you'd like more customers right?


On the control arm idea, ever thought about doing it like Mike Kojima did? Say, just have it so people send you their stock arms, you get the parts together (shank, spacers, rod end) and have someone machine it for you and charge for that? Just an idea...

 

I can guarantee they won't work on the alty.. My wife had a 97 and I put a stage I bar on it. it's different in many ways than the 4 and 5 gen Maximas.
for one, the gussets on the alty are parallel to the car's centerline. the A32 and A44 are both toed out several degrees- the 4th gen about 5* and the 5th gen about 10*.. those numbers are just eyeball guesses by memory, but that's just how they are.

Thus, I can guarantee the early Alty won't be able to use a current LTB.
Which brings me to the next question... what year Altimas are you referring to? Are the 93-97? the same as the 98-01 underneath? they look almost identical in size and setup in the engine bay, but I've never been under the car. If the chassis are the same for both of them....

pre-edit edit.. NVM.. I just remembered I have FAST installed on here...
all 93-01 altys use the same subframes and control arms. the earliest models have different numbers, but I'm going to bet that's because of a bushing change or production revision. The overall dimensions should be the same.. (that's generally the only difference between models within the same generation, but there have been times where I'm bitten in the ***.... like the brakes on 00-01 Maxima are different from the 02-03, but everything else is the same).

In english, that means the LTBs for the Maximas won't fit, but I have a stage I for it already.

 

by gussets I'm guessing you're talking about the part at the very front of the control arm that the front bushings slip over and has three bolts connecting it to the frame? If so, hot damn Matt you just gave me an idea, thanks.

 

yup, that's it.

and no, you can't move it up... (what you'd need to do in order to fix the control arm geometry problem)

 

If anything someone should start a thread with interest and let Cattman work something out with Progress or some other company and make these for us. I am sick of having bump steer, and with the Quaife LSD I will be getting from the group deal I want NO bump steer just sheer power out of the corner via 2 wheels and NO hopping around- bump steer.

 

^ever think about trying 240SX tie rod ends?
They're supposed to be swappable for us Altimas, they might work on Maximas as well.

 

Boy, if only they made these for us:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2224185

 

spindles would really be nice, but good luck finding someone to make those....

 

There can't be that many more people that mod Jettas than Maximas....

 

Yeah but MKIV is basically all the Golfs, GTis, Jetta, GLis, and Bugs ! Imagine how many of those are on the road.... most of the GTis I see around here are modified especially the MKVs.

I am not asking for a whole knuckle here, I'm asking for balljoint/tierod relocator.

 

sorry to bump this, but since I was talking to Matt here I thought I'd post this here...


Alright, as Matt said, the gussets on Maximas are toe'd out maybe 5* compared to an Altima's. Now, I have a set of Maxima gussets and a set of Altima gussets, they are definitely different on the very tips that the front control arm bushings slip over. The Max ones are moved a few degrees. But if one were so inclined, they could swap them out for each other.


Okay, on to the point. I was originally thinking of swapping over the Maxima gussets onto my Altima after hearing about this, thinking maybe it might help in handling. Well, I found that basically it would add some degrees of negative caster to the front suspension of an Altima if I did this (basically, moving the gussets toe'd out would also move the control arm back, and additionally move the ball joints back, creating negtive caster). I'd rather not do that and instead add some degrees of positive caster to my car (if you're interested as to why, read those Making It Stick articles and/or this site:http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/art...sp_01_0202.pdf as to how positive caster increase can help handling).


That leads me to the following idea for Maxima owners: use Altima gussets for your front control arms. Since the Altima gussets are toe'd-in more than a Maxima's, it effectively pulls the control arms inward, pulling the ball joints more towards the front of the car. It'd be a cheaper way to add some positive caster than buying Whiteline's caster kits.


Just an idea for all of you.

 

http://www.colemanracing.com/catalog...?cPath=49_1317
http://www.colemanracing.com/catalog...p?cPath=49_709

i am assuming these wont work on our Ball-Joints