I was hoping to get some critique from those here that know more about engines than me. My main "purpose" for my car in terms of performance is as an auto-x/track car, I'm not much into drag racing or ultimate horsepower. So, with that in mind, I'm wanting to build the engine for the following things: reliability, response, and high revs (assuming I can make power in the higher revs).

My first thought was why not go ahead and put on ARP rod bolts to safely rev to 7200RPM (as many members of Maxima.org say is all that's needed to safely rev to that redline). That turned into why not build the whole engine now and not mess with it later as I would have wanted to eventually do. So, the build I'm thinking of:

ARP Rod Bolts, Main and Head Studs
Pauter Chromoly Rods
VQ35HR pistons
Ferrrea Double Valvesprings and Titanium Retainers
VK45DE Valves


Alright, my thought process goes like this. First off, VQ35HR pistons, if they do fit, are supposed to be lighter than the regular DE pistons, meaning less stress on the reciprocating mass. Second, the Pauter rods follow the same idea: chromoly being lighter than steel should provide less stress on the rotational mass during higher RPM's (and of course they are supposed to be stronger than stock).


I'm not too sure how high I could rev with this setup or how much power I would make at anything above 7200RPM with JWT Cams/ECU. I have thought about doing a custom intake manifold like Krismax's (here: http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=503944 ), but I'd really like to ultimately do an independent throttle body setup.


Assuming I could rev between 7500 and 8000 safely, would I even need valves? What about main and head studs?
And as far as valvesprings go, would single be fine or would dual be needed?
And what do you think of Supertech instead of Ferrea? I've heard good things about them and their set of dual valvespring+retainers is cheaper than Ferrea's set/s.
What about head gaskets? Main and Rod bearings? Necessary for a high revving N/A setup?

Anyway, I'm trying to get an idea of what I'm looking at in terms of higher RPM power, rev limit, and reliability if I do go this route. Critique me. Thanks.

 

1. ARP main and head studs are not necessary for ANY n/a setup.

2. Pauter rods or some of the heaviest, if not the heaviest, rods out there. They are used by the 600+ WHP TT 350z crowd. Terrible n/a choice. The lightest that i know of are the carrillo a-beam rods, but they are pretty pricey. The eagle rods would be the better value but to tell you the truth, aftermarket rods aren't necessary unless you plan on revving to 8000+ RPM on a regular basis.

3. The VK45 valves are 1mm smaller than the 3.5's. Not worth it to retrofit them, IMO.

4. An OEM Z33 headgasket is plenty for ANY n/a setup. Aftermarket is for boost, period.

5. Double valve springs are for if you're running 11mm+ lift at 8k+ RPM.

If you want to build a serious high-revving all-motor setup, the JWT cams are mild and won't cut it. If you go with more aggressive cams, there will have to be a host of other considerations dealing with high revs and the lower resulting dynamic compression ratio. What's your budget like?

 

Thanks for the answer, you're one of the guys who seems to know his stuff, I was hoping you'd answer.


As far as budget, it's as high as I want pretty much, but I'm still looking to keep this car as a daily driver and actually keep it mildly conservative.

I know the JWT cams are fairly mild, but like I said I'm not looking for humongous HP, just great response and a high rev limit if I can make the power there reliabily. Would the JWT cams make the power up to 8000?

2. I don't plan on revving past 8000, I wasn't even sure if I could rev that high reliabily. I guess that would be my intended redline, so if Eagle rods aren't necessary I guess I could skip them, but I also don't mind spending the extra cash for some insurance on engine longevity.

So the main and head studs aren't necessary, and the VK45 valves aren't worth it huh? Would you still recommend some type of valves?


On a side note, I thought about upgrading the oil pump to a "Rev Up" engine oil pump, as it might help out during high revs/hard cornering, do you think that's a good idea? I think I found them online for $200, doesn't seem that bad to me for the insurance.

 

So what's the budget for such a build? That's the first question you should ask yourself. Also what is the desired power output?

If throttle response and high RPMs are your goal any reduction in reciprocating mass above the crankshaft is good. Lighter HR pistons are good for a budget setup but for N/A IMO it's to low of a compression ratio. I have yet to find a lightweight and affordable VQ35 connecting rod, there's always the options of custom Ti rods if you win the lottery.

For the cylinder heads my setup is going to use VK Ti valves, supertech valvesprings, and some other ideas. The goal is safe high RPM operation, increased throttle response, and reduction of NVH. There's another option of using VK lifters that are rumored to be made with aluminum as opposed to the VQs steel lifters. They are 34mm outside diameter like the VQ35s, Im going to do some weight comparisons to see if that's a viable option as well.

For the bottom end balance the crank pulley, crankshaft, flywheel, and pressure plate as one assembly. Chamfer or "tear drop" the oil holes in the block and crankshaft, at high sustained revs oil cavitation is a concern. Also get a rev up VQ35 oil pump or if you got big bucks the NISMO VQ35 pump. Also I've seen high rev motors use stock crank pullies and flywheels close to stock weight. The idea is to keep the bottom end mass high to dampen the vibration of the crank at high revs.

 

8000 RPM and conservative don't go together...hehe
Not a chance.
Well if you're gonna run the JWT cams revving to 8k is a moot point since you won't be making much power up there.
Correct. New OEM bolts will do fine.
To me, absolutely not.
The jury is still out on whether or not upgraded valves are necessary for 8k+ RPM. The OEM valves are a two piece design and are not as robust as aftermarket 1-piece SS valves. If you are on a unlimited budget, ferrea or supertech stock diameter valves would be a good choice. Of course, this also depends on the cam lift, ramp up/down rate, etc.

I would suggest the supertech over the ferrea though not only because of the price difference, but because you can use OEM valve oil seals since it is tapered just like the OEM valves.
A rev up oil pump is a good idea.

but.........


Before you move forward you need to decide where you want to make the majority of your power. That will help you decide which way to go with the rest of the setup.

 

Lol, money is really no real problem. I guess I wouldn't want to spend more than $3500, but I don't see why I'd have to spend that much at all for the engine build.

Desired power output, well, I want a fairly fat power band, and I figured that JWT cams wouldn't give me a big loss of power down low. Got an idea of where their power ends in the higher RPM's? Just for the record, I'll have all bolt-ons (I/E/H/Cams/UDP/ECU). If I could make power up to 7500 that'd be great, if I could rev to 8000 and make power there that'd be fantastic.

My understanding was the compression ratio of the HR pistons was the same or close to that of the stock CR of 10.3:1...or have I got that mixed up? Lol, titaniums would be nice, but we can skip that idea for now.

I'd like to see what you find about those. If I didn't get VK TI valves I might just get some Ferrea or Supertech valves (better safe than sorry), but I am seriously considering those Supertech valvesprings.

I'll remember that. I do plan to have the bottom end balanced, and I'll remember about the chamfer of the oil holes. As I stated in my previous post the Rev Up oil pump doesn't seem too bad for the price, cheap insurance, so I'll probably get it as well. Nismo Oil Pump, I thought about it, would it be that much better than the Rev Up? If I got the funds and it's a lot better I don't see why I shouldn't get it.

 

Those holes are chamfered already from the factory. If they weren't, the bearings would be grated like cheese.
That's more a function of oil pickup/oil pan design than anything else.
The OEM crank is good to 10k RPM according to a drag 350Z race team.

 

starting from the end of that post...

I'd like a fat powerband for the most part, and I figured the JWT cams wouldn't take too much away from low-mid range power. I've had this desire for ITB's for so long (the engine response from those, and that sexy sound haha), and I figure they would make a ton of power up top, but I just don't have a good idea where they would start to make most of their pull on a VQ. I really wouldn't surprise me if they helped make power up to 8K.

 

Awesome info, thanks.

 

Right. What im thinking must have a different name, I've seen it done on crankshafts at a engine machine shop. All the oil holes had a tear drop shape to them and the journals were all micropolished.

Yeah I was going to mention oil pan baffling and what not but forgot to.

Id rather keep the stock pulley and a somewhat light flywheel to be safe. Regardless of what you do balancing the assembly is a good idea.

Also are the VK Titanium valves one or two piece? I have yet to get my hands on them, but that's the first I've heard of the VK Ti valves being two piece.

 

Yea, if i'm thinking what you're thinking Z350lover (my350z) had that done to his crankshaft. The holes were made larger for increased flow then chamfered to remove the newly created sharp edges. He also had the OEM bearings modified for the same purposes. Then again, there are people revving to 8k daily with unmodified cranks and bearings. Running a Fluidampr pulley is also a good idea, IMO.
I was referring to the OEM VQ35 valves.

 

Also Z1auto.com raised the price on the Supertech valvesprings. They used to be $520 for springs, seats, and retainers. They now go for $810.

Im hoping the price doesn't go up everywhere else on these valve spring kits.

 

lol, I might have to buy mine soon then before the prices go up everywhere.
www.importperformanceparts.net has the dual valvesprings/retainers/seats for $479.
http://importperformanceparts.net/im...ts-nissan.html

 

I still think JWT cams is necessary to rev past 7k rpms. These cams literally lift up your powerband beyond 4k rpms.

In my (broken) 3.5 swap, it's these cams that kept my powerband constantly sloping up all the way to redline. Even at 7200 rpms cut off, I do not sense a dip at all. I now threw two rods in cylinders 3 and 5, but from experience, I'd put these cams in anyday for a high revver motor. For auto-x purposes, you'd be constantly throttling your car at 4k+ rpms, trust me, the response you'd get from regular cams is nothing compared to what you'll get from high lift cams.

In my brother's 2000 Maxima, with a regular 3.5 swap, the power band is mainly down there in the middle. It literally dies out after 5800 rpms. For hi-rev motors, I'm gonna give my vote to these jwt cams.

But be careful which cams you're using. On JWT, the 3.0 cams are 10.4mm lifts and 3.5 cams are 11.5mm lifts, their high-rev cams are even higher lifts to 12+mm. I'd go with some real heavy duty double springs if doing more than 11mm lifts.

-Peter-

 

No offense, but JWT's are relatively mild compared to what's available and mild in terms of an engine with operating VTC. Aggressive n/a cams are nismo spec 1 and 2, tomei 272's, 280's, etc. They require a built motor and heads due to the revs they want (making good power up to 8k depending on IM setup), but will offer the most n/a power up top. Cams like the nismo r-tunes, JWT S1, tomei 268's (no longer in production) are what i'd go for if the internals were to remain stock.

And the JWT S1 cams for the VQ35 offer 10.9mm of lift from everything i've read.

 

Sounds a lot like the idea I had for an 8k RPM buildup...

BTW you could take fairly aggressive cams like the Tomei 272 or 280s and retard them enough to peak around 7400-7500 and have a slow drop off to a 7800-7900 shift point. You could even do this with milder cams... I think retarded, mild cams mated to ITBs could peak in the 7300-7500 range with short runners.

Whats the status? The stock rods are supposed to be strong enough to 7500. Were the ARP rod bolts torqued correctly? Some of them snapped, fell out? This might sound stupid but is there some type of locktite you can put on the rod bolts on top of torquing them correctly? Your case has made me alittle weary of installing ARP rod bolts - peace of mind, mostly...

 

Improper assembly of one or more engine components is the only explanation for what happened to his motor. Torquing the ARP's down correctly is enough.

 

Sorry to steer this discussion back to my car. There's no findings yet. We have not taken off the oilpan, yet. We're prolly not going to do that at all. I'm just going to drop in a reliable vq30de motor right now. The 3.5 motor, after swap, will be transported to my backyard where I will disassemble it myself to investigate a failure analysis. I'm planning on getting a 3.5 bottom and simply slap the pathy heads with jwt cam+vavle assembly onto it, and make that my spare motor. I also have just bought a 96 auto for my spare beater for 1500 bucks. This way, I can totally dedicate my project car to install my supercharger kit that I have sitting in the closet. I figured if I can't get power from swaps, I'd go boost, and I've been waiting to install this supercharger for long. I'm pretty sure it's going to be a lot more stable to install boost onto the 3.0 than a 3.5 hybrid. So that's my plan.


Nismology, sorry I was misunderstanding your context for a little there. I didn't know you're telling him to install the more aggressive cams. In your post, you mentioned he shouldn't go with JWT cams, but you didn't talk about installing different cams. So I was confused about that one, and thought I'd give his setup a kick about the cams because from my experience, even though jwt 3.0 cams are mild, they still increased a great deal of hp up in the top ends. This phenonemon is undeniable from my personal experiences having the same set of cams on two 3.0 motor and 1 3.5 motor. So I thought I'd clear this up a little bit, it was merely a miscommunication. About the jwt 3.5 cams specs, I must be wrong, i got that number in my head because Ben pila from jwt threw a bunch of number at me when I was talking with him about cams and stuff. And jwt does make a set with 11.5mm high lifts, prolly on rev-up or high rev motors, but I had that number imprinted in for the general 3.5's. It's my fault, sorry about that.

-Peter-

 

still curious as to why your threw rods, I'm eager to hear (not eager in a good way, sorry).

For me, the power of the VQ35DE with all bolt-ons, cams, and ECU alone should be enough to put my car (a 1st gen Nissan Altima) into high 12's as is, and that's about as much power as I want. Though, as I stated above, the idea of ITB's or even the custom short ram intake manifold that Krismax made seems like a really nice N/A power adder without losing too much on the bottom end of the power band like I would with a lumpy cam, one of the reasons I'd like to keep the JWT's.

So I guess what it all comes down to is this: I'm not looking for an extreme N/A application with crazy top end cams, the power the VQ makes as is will be enough for me (remember, I'm coming from a 150HP KA24DE) but a little extra up top from 5500+ would be nice as well, but I want to do it safely.

Thanks to all of you for your input, I definitely have a much better idea of where to go with the engine as well as its limits.

 

yeah, I seem to recall you posting a similar setup somewhere which gave me the ideas for how to build mine up.

That sounds like about where I want mine to be, to peak in the 7300-7500 range, assuming I don't lose a lot of power down low. I'm going to search the dyno section and study what mods people are running and where and how they're making their power, it should give me a much more precise base for what power I'd be making where.

 

awesome info! subscribing...

 

Retarding the cams will be part of the equation for sure. Talk to nismology about it...

 

^I saw that thread about retarding, so I'll have to go read up on it.

This might be a silly or noobish question, but will the 3.5 intake manifold have VIAS? VIAS is the variable intake, right? I know they had VTC, but I've been reading and have seen more than one 3.5 person talking about VIAS, I thought that was only on the 00VI's, or am I wrong?

 

for JWT VQ35 cam reference -

http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/wol...INCL_REVUP.pdf

JWT's C2 cams offer 11.58 mm lift but the rest are lower. Their rev up cam is slightly lower at 11.43 mm.


Oh and my Supertech valve spring kit came in today.

 

Z33's do not have VIAS, FWD 3.5's have VIAS. It's an elementary question considering the nature of this thread.

 

thanks for the reply. lol yeah I know it's very noobish but you do so much reading and it all kind of blurs together, and besides I'm not very familiar with Maximas.


98SEBlackMax: awesome. you buy those from that site I posted?

 

Nah got them off of Ebay. Though that site has them for the cheapest price I've ever seen. Too bad I didn't know about it until these last few days.

 

First off, I appreciate all the great information that has been given to me so far. Thank you all.


Alright, I have been re-thinking my future build over the last week. My car is a daily driver AND a road-race/auto-x car, so I think I am looking to keep some bottom end power. I think I am going to forget about ITB's, as they raise the power band a bit too high for daily driving for me. I am seriously contemplating Krismax's manifold design, as I can keep the "elbow" portion for some lower-end torque and take it off for tracks that I would need higher-end power. Does that sound like a good idea to you guys? I'm eagerly awaiting a dyno from him to show power differences.


My next concern has to do with pistons. A couple guys on other forums are telling me I should go with an aftermarket piston such as JE or such. I know the HR pistons are new and we don't have a lot of information on them yet, but how do you think they would compare to say VQ35DE JE pistons, both in weight (JE 10.5:1's weigh 363 grams, I wish I knew how much HR's weigh), in the reduction of friction, and lastly in overall durability?


Lastly, I am seriously considering nitrous (just a 75 shot) for some extra 1/4mile oomph, what would I have to take into consideration differently regarding the engine internals?

 

wowow...i hope ur car turns out great!!!!