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Shifting notchy when engine on, but smooth when off?

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Old Nov 13, 2007 | 08:16 PM
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Shifting notchy when engine on, but smooth when off?

When my engine is running, it is hard to shift into any gear, I have to push pretty hard to between every shift. If I have the engine off, though, I can push the clutch in and shift very easily and smoothly. Does this mean the hydraulics (cluch master and slave cylinders) are working fine but I have a problem elsewhere? What could it be? It's getting pretty bad.

Also, I rebuilt the clutch master cylinder a year or so ago (it was leaking) so I doubt it has anything to do with that, could it maybe be the slave? Something else?

Edit: Also, my clutch has recectly started slipping a little if I'm in gear at low rpms and gun it, I thought it was just slowly wearing out, but could this be any part of the problem? Another thing too, if I put the car in reverse and then neutral, it will stay in reverse and I have to put it into another gear and then back to neutral to get it in neutral, I don't know if this is related either.

Edit 2: See video of slave at post #31.

Last edited by hoyshnin; Nov 16, 2007 at 05:48 PM.
Old Nov 13, 2007 | 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by hoyshnin
When my engine is running, it is hard to shift into any gear, I have to push pretty hard to between every shift. If I have the engine off, though, I can push the clutch in and shift very easily and smoothly. Does this mean the hydraulics (cluch master and slave cylinders) are working fine but I have a problem elsewhere? What could it be? It's getting pretty bad.

Also, I rebuilt the clutch master cylinder a year or so ago (it was leaking) so I doubt it has anything to do with that, could it maybe be the slave? Something else?
bad throw out bearing? clutch not fully disengaging? If the engine is still getting some grab on the clutch then the input shaft will be trying to spin, and making it tough to shift. I have an autotragic but i'm just throwing out some ideas here.
Old Nov 13, 2007 | 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by capedcadaver
bad throw out bearing? clutch not fully disengaging?
There's no grinding whatsoever, it's just really hard to shift, I don't know if this changes anything.
Old Nov 13, 2007 | 11:36 PM
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if the clutch isnt all the way in it wont always grind, you will just have to force it to pop in gear.
Old Nov 13, 2007 | 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by helps
if the clutch isnt all the way in it wont always grind, you will just have to force it to pop in gear.
Hm, so what would cause the clutch not to go in all the way? Would it be a clutch adjustment issue, or could it be a bad slave cylinder? What are other possible reasons it's so notchy?
Old Nov 13, 2007 | 11:42 PM
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ive had dozens of slaves go out and not one of them made it notchy. just soggy. id look at replacing the master cylinder there may be groves in the cylinder causing you to leak.
Old Nov 13, 2007 | 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by helps
ive had dozens of slaves go out and not one of them made it notchy. just soggy. id look at replacing the master cylinder there may be groves in the cylinder causing you to leak.
If a master goes out, is it always due to leaking? I don't think I've been loosing much fluid, can it still go bad and retain the fluid?
Old Nov 13, 2007 | 11:51 PM
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it can leak through the cylinder, you wont loose it but you will loose pressure.
Old Nov 13, 2007 | 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by helps
it can leak through the cylinder, you wont loose it but you will loose pressure.
Hm, is there a way to test it for lost pressure? Would looking at the slave while someone pushes in the clutch help me figure it out (since you say it's probably not the slave, maybe if the slave doesn't push the fork very far then I can tell it is the master?)?

My clutch also slips a little bit if I gun it while at low rpms, would this be related at all? I just figured my clutch was slowly going out (See edit above).

Last edited by hoyshnin; Nov 14, 2007 at 06:20 AM.
Old Nov 14, 2007 | 08:53 AM
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thats either a bad clutch or it will be soon cause of your master, your slave makes it disengage not engage. so id definitely think of looking at the master, just look and see if the slaves taking the clutch all the way out.
Old Nov 14, 2007 | 01:53 PM
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1. if your clutch is slipping you need a new clutch.
2. If you're having problems getting it in gear while running and not when the engine is off, you either have a bad TO bearing, improperly bled clutch hydraulic system, or a failing master/slave cylinder. I would vote on the first one personally. it'll be easy to see when you pull the tranny to replace the clutch- and the new clutch kit comes with a new TO bearing. so if the problem is still there once you replace the clutch, start looking at hydraulics.
Old Nov 14, 2007 | 02:07 PM
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so spend 160 bucks instead of spending 20 first to see if the problem gets fixed?
Old Nov 14, 2007 | 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by helps
so spend 160 bucks instead of spending 20 first to see if the problem gets fixed?
It called proper diagnoses dude..Matt hit the nail on the head,he needs a new clutch kit.

Most of your so called "mechanics" in shops nowadays are no more than parts changers(i.e keep swapping parts until they find the broken part)
Old Nov 14, 2007 | 02:13 PM
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so why try and refer me to a parts changer?
Old Nov 14, 2007 | 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by helps
so why try and refer me to a parts changer?

If the shoe fits..
Old Nov 14, 2007 | 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt93SE
1. if your clutch is slipping you need a new clutch.
2. If you're having problems getting it in gear while running and not when the engine is off, you either have a bad TO bearing, improperly bled clutch hydraulic system, or a failing master/slave cylinder. I would vote on the first one personally. it'll be easy to see when you pull the tranny to replace the clutch- and the new clutch kit comes with a new TO bearing. so if the problem is still there once you replace the clutch, start looking at hydraulics.
I have no room or skill or people other than me to drop a tranny, so maybe I'll have to just change out the master and slave and see if that fixes it.
Old Nov 14, 2007 | 05:59 PM
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If your clutch is slipping and it's not fully disengaging when the pedal is on the floor, then it's not the hydraulic system- at least it's not the whole problem. a slipping clutch simply needs to be replaced.
Old Nov 14, 2007 | 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt93SE
If your clutch is slipping and it's not fully disengaging when the pedal is on the floor, then it's not the hydraulic system- at least it's not the whole problem. a slipping clutch simply needs to be replaced.
do you figure his clutch could have worn prematurely by not fully disengaging, therefore putting unnecessary wear on the clutch disc in mid-shift, or worse, if he leaves it in gear with the clutch depressed at stop lights? I agree that his clutch is on its way out, but i was thinking there could be a little cause-and-effect going on.
Old Nov 14, 2007 | 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by capedcadaver
do you figure his clutch could have worn prematurely by not fully disengaging, therefore putting unnecessary wear on the clutch disc in mid-shift, or worse, if he leaves it in gear with the clutch depressed at stop lights? I agree that his clutch is on its way out, but i was thinking there could be a little cause-and-effect going on.
I always have it in neutral at stop lights. So what would cause the clutch not to fully disengage, the slave or master or what?
Old Nov 14, 2007 | 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by hoyshnin
I always have it in neutral at stop lights. So what would cause the clutch not to fully disengage, the slave or master or what?
neutral is good.

slave, master, air bubbles in the line, low fluid level, leaks... or a poorly adjusted pedal. there are probably things in the clutch plate/pp/TOBearing that could make that happen too but i'm not an expert on that stuff.

yaknow if your gas pedal is just a half inch off the stopper at rest, you're never going to hit WOT? same sort of thing. if your pedal is too low you're never going to get full travel on the hydraulics.
Old Nov 14, 2007 | 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by capedcadaver
slave, master, air bubbles in the line, low fluid level, leaks... or a poorly adjusted pedal. there are probably things in the clutch plate/pp/TOBearing that could make that happen too but i'm not an expert on that stuff.
Ok, well I recently bled the system, I rebuilt the master about a year ago so I'll replace the slave first I guess and then the master if that doesn't work.
Old Nov 14, 2007 | 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by hoyshnin
Ok, well I recently bled the system, I rebuilt the master about a year ago so I'll replace the slave first I guess and then the master if that doesn't work.
are you sure the line itself isn't leaking? and that all bolts and stuff are properly tightened?
Old Nov 14, 2007 | 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by capedcadaver
are you sure the line itself isn't leaking? and that all bolts and stuff are properly tightened?
I'm not sure the line itself isn't leaking, I'll check that, I haven't loosened any bolts, only the bleeder valve in the slave cylinder, but I checked that and found it was on tight. I'll look over the line to check if it's leaking though.
Old Nov 14, 2007 | 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by capedcadaver
yaknow if your gas pedal is just a half inch off the stopper at rest, you're never going to hit WOT? same sort of thing. if your pedal is too low you're never going to get full travel on the hydraulics.
If the pedal adjustment was bad, though, wouldn't I be grinding gears? I dont' experience any grinding.
Old Nov 14, 2007 | 10:17 PM
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the pedal adjustment is on the master cylinder piston.
Old Nov 15, 2007 | 03:04 PM
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I have to agree with Matt. I had the same problem and since I had recently replaced the clutch I went ahead and replaced my master and slave as well, but the problem continued. It turned out to be a faulty clutch that I had recently installed.
Old Nov 16, 2007 | 04:38 AM
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....... just change the slipping clutch and install a new TO bearing while you're in there. you know you need to do it, and it could be the cause of all of the problems.

to mess with the hydraulics right now, you're just throwing parts (money) at the car- not doing any real diagnostics.

So do you want to waste an afternoon and $60 worth of parts, or do you want to fix the problem?
Old Nov 16, 2007 | 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt93SE
....... just change the slipping clutch and install a new TO bearing while you're in there. you know you need to do it, and it could be the cause of all of the problems.

to mess with the hydraulics right now, you're just throwing parts (money) at the car- not doing any real diagnostics.

So do you want to waste an afternoon and $60 worth of parts, or do you want to fix the problem?
Is there a way I can tell if the TO bearing is bad without dropping the transmission? Could I take off the slave and move around the fork and tell that way? I can live with a slipping clutch until it starts to actually affect normal driving (not just driving aggressively like right now), but I can't keep living with it being really hard to shift like it is. So if there was a way I could know for sure if I needed a TO bearing, then I wouldn't feel as bad about dropping $900 or so on a clutch job and installation of a new TO bearing.
Old Nov 16, 2007 | 01:09 PM
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pop the hood and start looking around. have a helper push the pedal and hold it while you're checking stuff out.
see if the slave cylinder moves a lot or not much...


..... but you're still wasting your time.
Old Nov 16, 2007 | 01:59 PM
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just change the clutch ha... before it breaks while your driving home just finishing a shopping day with the girlfriend on your 2 year anniversary...

So now Im trying to replace my clutch, flywheel, slave cyl, and master cyl
You can prolly still drive it for a lil while more (IDK the condition of your car) because I did... I just dont like to let go of my monies... but since I waited!... I spent WAY more than I woulda liked and have a second vehicle now ha...
Old Nov 16, 2007 | 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt93SE
pop the hood and start looking around. have a helper push the pedal and hold it while you're checking stuff out.
see if the slave cylinder moves a lot or not much...


..... but you're still wasting your time.
Well I tried it and here's the video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0NMscDim53Y

I think the hydrolics look good, but from what I understand from reading other posts, if I can move the fork at the end of the slave (this is the fork under the boot, right?) up and down, then it means my TO bearing is worn out. I checked it and I can move it a good 1/2 centimeter up and down. Is this normal, or is this a sign of a worn out TO bearing?
Old Nov 16, 2007 | 08:29 PM
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don't make me repeat myself... AGAIN.
Old Nov 16, 2007 | 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by hoyshnin
Well I tried it and here's the video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0NMscDim53Y

I think the hydrolics look good, but from what I understand from reading other posts, if I can move the fork at the end of the slave (this is the fork under the boot, right?) up and down, then it means my TO bearing is worn out. I checked it and I can move it a good 1/2 centimeter up and down. Is this normal, or is this a sign of a worn out TO bearing?

clutch judder I believe, is a sign of a bad TO bearing
Old Nov 16, 2007 | 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by capedcadaver
bad throw out bearing? clutch not fully disengaging? If the engine is still getting some grab on the clutch then the input shaft will be trying to spin, and making it tough to shift. I have an autotragic but i'm just throwing out [<<--subliminal] some ideas here.
note that this was the very first thing that any of us suggested. That's post #2. As soon as I read your post, first thing I thought was TOBearing. I didn't even need to see everything you typed since. Not to be in-your-face but if it looks like a blueberry muffin, smells [good] like a blueberry muffin, and tastes like a blueberry muffin... then say "hey i have a blueberry muffin and i'mma eat it." and eat it and enjoy.

/lame_analogy
Old Nov 16, 2007 | 10:58 PM
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to me it does not look like the cylinder is coming all the way out but if your clutch is slipping when its engaged fully its gone. but before you go and blow all your money on a new clutch, fix what made it bad in the first place. then replace the clutch
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