SC auto vs. TC auto....which pulls harder?
03-06-2003, 06:01 AM
#1
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SC auto vs. TC auto....which pulls harder?
Which pulls harder, a SCed auto or a TCed auto? Let say the SCed auto run 10 psi and the TCed auto run 6psi, which is faster? I noticed that even with a SC, the auto would sometime tend to lag, could be of it being belt driven? On the highway, a SCed auto isn't really that fast IMO. Would a TCed auto have the same result? How much of a difference in performance do you guys think a SCed auto vs. a TCed would be?
Btw, before anyone ask, I'm not going that direction.
Btw, before anyone ask, I'm not going that direction.
03-06-2003, 07:13 AM
#3
I say 6 because it will hit earlier and faster, but 10 will overcome 6 during the race.
With an auto, the gears are taller so you will stay in peak boost longer. Cool, huh?
I don't have first hand experience with auto/TC, here's the difference between manual/SC and manual/TC...
manual w/SC
Power comes the instant you mash on the pedal (if you have a small enough pulley or in the correct RPM for boost), but the pull is linear so you don't really feel it (as much as the TC). Peak boost hits at redline.
1st gear through 3rd gear pull (11 psi): Not too much traction in first, but can be controlled through feathering of the clutch/gas. Nice chirp into 2nd and sometimes a chirp into 3rd (Bridgestone RE730 tires).
manual w/TC
The pull is slightly delayed (a split second) even if you are boosting, but once it kicks in, the car just flies. Peak boost is reached early and is held up to redline.
1st gear through 2nd gear pull (10 psi): I've only tried rowing from 1st through 3rd once (rolling start). From what I've noticed, 1st gear has decent traction... it may actually be better than the SC because the turbo isn't spooling fast enough to build too much boost (note that I also have a lightenend flywheel so 1st gear climbs extremely fast). Once I shifted to 2nd, traction was totally lost so the tires COMPLETELY spun through this gear. The needle reached redline fast.....REALLY fast, so I had to shift into 3rd. Feathering the clutch/gas is definitely a must if you want to keep from spinning the tires in 2nd.
mingo (Daniel) was in the car when this happened. When I gave [maxi-overdose] rides, I only started from 2nd gear.
I call dibs on your turbo....... Jane needs a change.
Edited spelling mistakes.
With an auto, the gears are taller so you will stay in peak boost longer. Cool, huh?
I don't have first hand experience with auto/TC, here's the difference between manual/SC and manual/TC...
manual w/SC
Power comes the instant you mash on the pedal (if you have a small enough pulley or in the correct RPM for boost), but the pull is linear so you don't really feel it (as much as the TC). Peak boost hits at redline.
1st gear through 3rd gear pull (11 psi): Not too much traction in first, but can be controlled through feathering of the clutch/gas. Nice chirp into 2nd and sometimes a chirp into 3rd (Bridgestone RE730 tires).
manual w/TC
The pull is slightly delayed (a split second) even if you are boosting, but once it kicks in, the car just flies. Peak boost is reached early and is held up to redline.
1st gear through 2nd gear pull (10 psi): I've only tried rowing from 1st through 3rd once (rolling start). From what I've noticed, 1st gear has decent traction... it may actually be better than the SC because the turbo isn't spooling fast enough to build too much boost (note that I also have a lightenend flywheel so 1st gear climbs extremely fast). Once I shifted to 2nd, traction was totally lost so the tires COMPLETELY spun through this gear. The needle reached redline fast.....REALLY fast, so I had to shift into 3rd. Feathering the clutch/gas is definitely a must if you want to keep from spinning the tires in 2nd.
mingo (Daniel) was in the car when this happened. When I gave [maxi-overdose] rides, I only started from 2nd gear.
I call dibs on your turbo....... Jane needs a change.
Edited spelling mistakes.
03-06-2003, 11:21 AM
#5
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Just go to this site (dyno tests and all):
http://www.turbomaxima.com/modules.p...g+my+Maxima#16
That is all...
http://www.turbomaxima.com/modules.p...g+my+Maxima#16
That is all...
03-06-2003, 11:24 AM
#6
Originally posted by Cumalot
Understood. Thanks Kev.
As much I would like to get a turbo, I don't think I could. I just don't have the funds for it...yet.
Understood. Thanks Kev.
As much I would like to get a turbo, I don't think I could. I just don't have the funds for it...yet.
03-06-2003, 12:03 PM
#7
Originally posted by MacGyver265
Just go to this site (dyno tests and all):
http://www.turbomaxima.com/modules.p...g+my+Maxima#16
That is all...
Just go to this site (dyno tests and all):
http://www.turbomaxima.com/modules.p...g+my+Maxima#16
That is all...
03-06-2003, 12:15 PM
#8
Sorta depends on the tuning doesn't it?
Within a few psi, whatever system is better set up will probably hit harder.
You have to consider, there are lots of guys here sc/turbo'd but only very few that actually went to the next level and spend the $ on the dyno to tune their systems right.
Within a few psi, whatever system is better set up will probably hit harder.
You have to consider, there are lots of guys here sc/turbo'd but only very few that actually went to the next level and spend the $ on the dyno to tune their systems right.
03-06-2003, 12:22 PM
#9
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Originally posted by Jeff92se
Sorta depends on the tuning doesn't it?
Within a few psi, whatever system is better set up will probably hit harder.
You have to consider, there are lots of guys here sc/turbo'd but only very few that actually went to the next level and spend the $ on the dyno to tune their systems right.
Sorta depends on the tuning doesn't it?
Within a few psi, whatever system is better set up will probably hit harder.
You have to consider, there are lots of guys here sc/turbo'd but only very few that actually went to the next level and spend the $ on the dyno to tune their systems right.
True. Plus not many actually go to the track and race either. So we can't really compare them that way either.
03-06-2003, 12:53 PM
#11
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Originally posted by Jeff92se
You have to consider, there are lots of guys here sc/turbo'd but only very few that actually went to the next level and spend the $ on the dyno to tune their systems right.
You have to consider, there are lots of guys here sc/turbo'd but only very few that actually went to the next level and spend the $ on the dyno to tune their systems right.
And yes, the kind of blower you run makes ALL the difference, SC or Turbo. Take a Eaton Roots type SC, it probubly hits as hard then fastest turbo here depending on the amount of psi you are running. The Maxima is FWD so that's probubly one of the reasons Vortech made it boost linear...to prevent some wild torque steer. It sucks though, not as fun. I tell you what though, downshifts with a SC'ed 5spd probubly hit as hard or close to most turbo's here.
03-06-2003, 01:06 PM
#12
What do you think? Measuring hp a/f egts and then adjusting fuel/timing to alter.
Eaton makes good power down low but can't provide more boost up top. Why talk about it when they aren't available. It all depends on the turbo as Turbo 95 said. If you want to talk about diff turbos, consider a ball bearing unit that will spool fast PLUS boost higher than a fixed SC. Or how about a VATN turbo. Small fast boost at low rpms and big psi numbers at high rpms.
Then again, there's that nasty TUNING thing again
Eaton makes good power down low but can't provide more boost up top. Why talk about it when they aren't available. It all depends on the turbo as Turbo 95 said. If you want to talk about diff turbos, consider a ball bearing unit that will spool fast PLUS boost higher than a fixed SC. Or how about a VATN turbo. Small fast boost at low rpms and big psi numbers at high rpms.
Then again, there's that nasty TUNING thing again
Originally posted by Craig Mack
What do you consider "tuning"? What could a dyno run tell me that could help me tune and make more HP?
And yes, the kind of blower you run makes ALL the difference, SC or Turbo. Take a Eaton Roots type SC, it probubly hits as hard then fastest turbo here depending on the amount of psi you are running. The Maxima is FWD so that's probubly one of the reasons Vortech made it boost linear...to prevent some wild torque steer. It sucks though, not as fun. I tell you what though, downshifts with a SC'ed 5spd probubly hit as hard or close to most turbo's here.
What do you consider "tuning"? What could a dyno run tell me that could help me tune and make more HP?
And yes, the kind of blower you run makes ALL the difference, SC or Turbo. Take a Eaton Roots type SC, it probubly hits as hard then fastest turbo here depending on the amount of psi you are running. The Maxima is FWD so that's probubly one of the reasons Vortech made it boost linear...to prevent some wild torque steer. It sucks though, not as fun. I tell you what though, downshifts with a SC'ed 5spd probubly hit as hard or close to most turbo's here.
03-06-2003, 01:45 PM
#13
Originally posted by Stephen Max
Maybe this has been discussed before, but aren't the power and torque numbers for the turbo system significantly inflated in that dyno graph, since SAE correction factors were applied to a dyno run done at ~5000 ft? From what little I understand, SAE correction factors based on altitude don't really apply to a car with forced induction. I could be totally off base here, if so, please tell me.
Maybe this has been discussed before, but aren't the power and torque numbers for the turbo system significantly inflated in that dyno graph, since SAE correction factors were applied to a dyno run done at ~5000 ft? From what little I understand, SAE correction factors based on altitude don't really apply to a car with forced induction. I could be totally off base here, if so, please tell me.
SAE for altitude does not completly apply to turbo applications because the boost controller will force the turbo to work harder at altitude to reach the set boost level. On a SC, it just spins at the same rpms but has less dense air to draw in, so less boost is made, hence the air density factor is aplicable. Or from a SC gys perspective a TC car has a HUGE advantage at altitude.
03-06-2003, 01:51 PM
#14
Originally posted by MardiGrasMax
YES! You are right!
SAE for altitude does not completly apply to turbo applications because the boost controller will force the turbo to work harder at altitude to reach the set boost level. On a SC, it just spins at the same rpms but has less dense air to draw in, so less boost is made, hence the air density factor is aplicable. Or from a SC gys perspective a TC car has a HUGE advantage at altitude.
YES! You are right!
SAE for altitude does not completly apply to turbo applications because the boost controller will force the turbo to work harder at altitude to reach the set boost level. On a SC, it just spins at the same rpms but has less dense air to draw in, so less boost is made, hence the air density factor is aplicable. Or from a SC gys perspective a TC car has a HUGE advantage at altitude.
03-07-2003, 04:10 PM
#22
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Originally posted by mayhemI30
just reading this thread. i just want to know after i get a stall and vb mod should get tc or sc? a kit from hlh or stillen?
just reading this thread. i just want to know after i get a stall and vb mod should get tc or sc? a kit from hlh or stillen?
That being said, get a turbocharger. The Supercharger options for the Maxima aren't auto friendly, meaning auto's need hard hitting boost, since they are....already pretty slow.
5spd's can go with SC's because the 5spd's gearing and what not. In any case, the Supercharger is going to put significantly less stress on the engine, depending on which turbo/amount of boost you run.
03-07-2003, 04:39 PM
#23
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5 speed, auto, FWD, RWD, AWD, whatever .... turbo is the only way to go ; . Do I seem a little biased here? . Most of the funnest cars to drive (from the factory) that are boosted have T/C vs S/C... too many to mention, but here's a few:
Skylines
Supras
RX-7
WRX
EVOs
GT3000
Older Eclipses
Honda Civics ... oh wait (there's so many that are T/C you think they come like that from the factory!)
...
try to do the same list for S/C cars from the factory!
. Most of the funnest cars to drive (from the factory) that are boosted have T/C vs S/C... too many to mention, but here's a few:Skylines
Supras
RX-7
WRX
EVOs
GT3000
Older Eclipses
Honda Civics ... oh wait (there's so many that are T/C you think they come like that from the factory!)
...
try to do the same list for S/C cars from the factory!
Originally posted by Craig Mack
Forget the hi-stall. Unless there was a way for you to turn it off or on, I wouldn't get one for your daily driven Maxima.
That being said, get a turbocharger. The Supercharger options for the Maxima aren't auto friendly, meaning auto's need hard hitting boost, since they are....already pretty slow. 5spd's can go with SC's because the 5spd's gearing and what not.
In any case, the Supercharger is going to put significantly less stress on the engine, depending on which turbo/amount of boost you run.
Forget the hi-stall. Unless there was a way for you to turn it off or on, I wouldn't get one for your daily driven Maxima.
That being said, get a turbocharger. The Supercharger options for the Maxima aren't auto friendly, meaning auto's need hard hitting boost, since they are....already pretty slow.
5spd's can go with SC's because the 5spd's gearing and what not. In any case, the Supercharger is going to put significantly less stress on the engine, depending on which turbo/amount of boost you run.
03-07-2003, 04:56 PM
#24
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Originally posted by turbo97SE
...
try to do the same list for S/C cars from the factory!
...
try to do the same list for S/C cars from the factory!
Ford Cobra
Ford Mustang Saleen
Grand Prix GTP
Ford Thunderbird SC
Nissan Xterra SC
Nissan Frontier SC
Tons of Mercedes
Those are just some off the very top of my head. And we all know Mercedes blows alot of their vehicles with roots sc blowers.
03-07-2003, 05:15 PM
#25
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I said FUN! ... I guess it's a matter of what one considers fun! Also most of these have HUGE engines, those that don't are WEAK! I still think my list is better!
Also most of these have HUGE engines, those that don't are WEAK! I still think my list is better!
Originally posted by Craig Mack
Ford Lightning
Ford Cobra
Ford Mustang Saleen
Grand Prix GTP
Ford Thunderbird SC
Nissan Xterra SC
Nissan Frontier SC
Tons of Mercedes
Those are just some off the very top of my head. And we all know Mercedes blows alot of their vehicles with roots sc blowers.
Ford Lightning
Ford Cobra
Ford Mustang Saleen
Grand Prix GTP
Ford Thunderbird SC
Nissan Xterra SC
Nissan Frontier SC
Tons of Mercedes
Those are just some off the very top of my head. And we all know Mercedes blows alot of their vehicles with roots sc blowers.
03-07-2003, 05:20 PM
#26
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Originally posted by turbo97SE
I said FUN! ... I guess it's a matter of what one considers fun! Also most of these have HUGE engines, those that don't are WEAK! I still think my list is better!
I said FUN! ... I guess it's a matter of what one considers fun!
Also most of these have HUGE engines, those that don't are WEAK! I still think my list is better!
I don't know about you, but I sure as hell would take a New Cobra, Lightning or Saleen over any cars in your list by far. (minus the skyline of course) Your right though, all cars in my list have big displacement for the most part.
03-07-2003, 06:27 PM
#28
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Mardi and I seem to be the only people who defend Superchargers on this board.
Let's see...we got:
I.Reliability
a.smooth boost = little engine strain
b.Vortech quality
c.plug and play, bolt on kit
d.tried and true
And the Turbo:
I.Reliability
a.Blown engines, (hlh)
b.Hard hitting, engine busting boost
c.Not as plug as play as the SC
d.New to us, long term reliability unknown
In saying all this....I still probubly would prefer my V1 to act more similerly to a fast spool turbo.
Let's see...we got:
I.Reliability
a.smooth boost = little engine strain
b.Vortech quality
c.plug and play, bolt on kit
d.tried and true
And the Turbo:
I.Reliability
a.Blown engines, (hlh)
b.Hard hitting, engine busting boost
c.Not as plug as play as the SC
d.New to us, long term reliability unknown
In saying all this....I still probubly would prefer my V1 to act more similerly to a fast spool turbo.
03-07-2003, 11:12 PM
#29
Reliablity= yeah right
Vortech quality= yeah right, and try there customer service
Plug And Play= Really, how long did it take YOU to install it?
And as far as blown engines go, I can think of 5 right off the top of my head that have blown with the S/C...
Vortech quality= yeah right, and try there customer service
Plug And Play= Really, how long did it take YOU to install it?
And as far as blown engines go, I can think of 5 right off the top of my head that have blown with the S/C...
Originally posted by Craig Mack
Mardi and I seem to be the only people who defend Superchargers on this board.
Let's see...we got:
I.Reliability
a.smooth boost = little engine strain
b.Vortech quality
c.plug and play, bolt on kit
d.tried and true
And the Turbo:
I.Reliability
a.Blown engines, (hlh)
b.Hard hitting, engine busting boost
c.Not as plug as play as the SC
d.New to us, long term reliability unknown
In saying all this....I still probubly would prefer my V1 to act more similerly to a fast spool turbo.
Mardi and I seem to be the only people who defend Superchargers on this board.
Let's see...we got:
I.Reliability
a.smooth boost = little engine strain
b.Vortech quality
c.plug and play, bolt on kit
d.tried and true
And the Turbo:
I.Reliability
a.Blown engines, (hlh)
b.Hard hitting, engine busting boost
c.Not as plug as play as the SC
d.New to us, long term reliability unknown
In saying all this....I still probubly would prefer my V1 to act more similerly to a fast spool turbo.
03-08-2003, 10:13 AM
#30
03-08-2003, 11:40 AM
#31
Originally posted by Craig Mack
Ford Lightning
Ford Cobra
Ford Mustang Saleen
Grand Prix GTP
Ford Thunderbird SC
Nissan Xterra SC
Nissan Frontier SC
Tons of Mercedes
Those are just some off the very top of my head. And we all know Mercedes blows alot of their vehicles with roots sc blowers.
Ford Lightning
Ford Cobra
Ford Mustang Saleen
Grand Prix GTP
Ford Thunderbird SC
Nissan Xterra SC
Nissan Frontier SC
Tons of Mercedes
Those are just some off the very top of my head. And we all know Mercedes blows alot of their vehicles with roots sc blowers.
Me? I'm a turbo fan.
03-09-2003, 10:25 PM
#36
Originally posted by Stephen Max
Maybe this has been discussed before, but aren't the power and torque numbers for the turbo system significantly inflated in that dyno graph, since SAE correction factors were applied to a dyno run done at ~5000 ft? From what little I understand, SAE correction factors based on altitude don't really apply to a car with forced induction. I could be totally off base here, if so, please tell me.
Maybe this has been discussed before, but aren't the power and torque numbers for the turbo system significantly inflated in that dyno graph, since SAE correction factors were applied to a dyno run done at ~5000 ft? From what little I understand, SAE correction factors based on altitude don't really apply to a car with forced induction. I could be totally off base here, if so, please tell me.
also another thing to keep in mind and i believe mardigras or someone brought this up before, we don't too often see even matches... meaning, turbo guys running 3" exhaust's compared to 2.5" exhaust s/c, etc.. so think about that for whatever its worth i dont know..
I think yes the biggest factor is size of the units, and most/all the turbo max's going with something that will give them more than the s/c included in the maxima kits..
and craig, nigel did say fun cars... his list wins (except the wrx...ew)
oh, and list me as a blown engine, well please show me the list of s/c guys running up to 20psi and not blowing their engines? oh.. how many of the stillen superchargers can even run up to 20psi? compare apples to apples here bud, I can afford to do stupid stuff to my car and know its coming and be ok b/c i have extras and the resources to have my car back up in 2days... i am not going to recommend it to others though, how many of my customers, running compareable boost to s/c's (what 6-12ish?) are blowing their engines? none. oh yeah and vortech's name and the reliability ... yeah vortech is a model of great reliability etc, all the posts I hear of people's s/c having to be sent to vortech for repair..cumalot: snag a ride in both setups, and tell us what ya think pulls harder
I think the two supercharged guys who sold their s/c's and got my kit is a little bit of a testimony of its own? not to say you cant be badass w/ s/c b/c we know you can (MARDI!)
03-09-2003, 10:54 PM
#37
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Originally posted by hlh0501
cumalot: snag a ride in both setups, and tell us what ya think pulls harder
cumalot: snag a ride in both setups, and tell us what ya think pulls harder
I have first hand experience with a SCed auto. My auto was SC. I was running about 10psi. I was able to pull a 13.9@100mph, it's ok I guess for an auto. I have not ridden in a turboed auto. Too bad you are so far away, if not I would strongly consider it.
03-09-2003, 11:00 PM
#38
Originally posted by Cumalot
Too bad you are so far away, if not I would strongly consider it.
Too bad you are so far away, if not I would strongly consider it.
Originally posted by Cumalot
There's no way I can afford a turbo kit.
There's no way I can afford a turbo kit.
and 13.9@100 is nothing to be laughed at, esp auto when you can do it consistently
03-09-2003, 11:59 PM
#39
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Originally posted by hlh0501
if you can't afford it, i dont suggest riding in one ...
and 13.9@100 is nothing to be laughed at, esp auto when you can do it consistently
if you can't afford it, i dont suggest riding in one ...
and 13.9@100 is nothing to be laughed at, esp auto when you can do it consistently
If you were closer, I would find a way to afford it.
Yeah, I made only three runs that night. All three were 13.9 runs. After the third run, I guess the guys there wanted to make sure it wasn't a fluke, they told me I needed a helmet.
How hard would it be to install one of your kit on a 4th gen auto? I did the V1 SC install myself. So is it doable?