THIS is the difference between a Turbo and a Supercharger

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09-06-2003, 09:24 AM

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THIS is the difference between a Turbo and a Supercharger

I copied this from Y2KEVSE. I added some things to the graph to help show area under the curve

THIS IS Y2KEVSE'S DYNO GRAPH. KEV IF YOU MIND I WILL TAKE THIS POST DOWN. YOU POSTED ALL THIS INFORMATION. I JUST PUT IT WHERE EVERYONE COULD SEE IT

Quote:

Originally Posted by Y2KevSE

If you're looking at dyno numbers, the biggest difference between a turbocharged and supercharged (centrifugal) Max is the area under the hp and torque curve. Since the turbo makes peaks boost faster (meaning it will probably flow more air into the engine), a TC'ed car will pull away from the SC'ed quicker.

You want another comparison?
I am not putting down Matt or his accomplishments... this is only an example. Only respect for Matt

MardiGrasMax makes 379.78 whp and 320.43 torque at 15 psi on his SC (no nitrous). I make 317.3 whp and 314.4 torque at 10 psi.

Let's plot the hp and torque numbers

Code:

             Approximate hp and torque
RPM          Matt          Me
2500         95/190        85/180
3000         120/210       120/200
3500         160/235       145/220
4000         200/260       195/255
4500         245/285       240/305
5000         295/305       290/310
5500         325/310       305/295
6000         370/320       317/275
6500         N/A           315/250

You see how close the numbers are all the way up to 5500? Close race huh? But Matt will kick my butt after 5500.

Take a look at the dyno graph between the two different setups I had:
- SC with 2.87" pulley pushing out 11 psi
- TC with T4 ceramic ball-bearing turbo pushing out 10 psi

I have made marks on the graph.. it has NOT changed

Edit: Made two changes, which are bolded.

09-06-2003, 11:23 AM

Craig Mack

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09-06-2003, 11:47 AM

max'n out

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That fuel curve sucks.

09-06-2003, 12:02 PM

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No finger pointing craigy....

just the picture proof of the differences..

09-06-2003, 01:18 PM

Craig Mack

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What i'm surprised at is Matts V1 supercharger, which makes significantly more torque under 4000rpm at 15psi than Kevish's turbo at 10psi. At 4000rpm Matt is making 50tq more than Kevin.

Quick Spoolin', "torquey" turbo gets OwNeD by the "torqueless" lag-charger.

09-06-2003, 01:57 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Mack

now.. I never said the SC was TQless.. kev actually said the 5th gen were TQless wonders due to the VI...

now when the VI is applied to a 4th gen we become TQ less wonders as well.

You said it yourself " What i'm surprised at is Matts V1 supercharger, which makes significantly more torque under 4000rpm at 15psi than Kevish's turbo at 10psi " the Turbo, PSI for PSI will produce MORE TQ than a SC. ( IN A MAXIMA )

And yes mardi owns all of us... and he will REALLY own ALL of us when his current project gets back to him

09-06-2003, 01:58 PM

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and BTW I did not put this out there to cause any hate or discontent.. just to show the MAIN power difference.

Not better, not worse.. just different

09-06-2003, 02:34 PM

MoDiddy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bags533

and BTW I did not put this out there to cause any hate or discontent.. just to show the MAIN power difference.

Not better, not worse.. just different

Im dont know much about boost, so dont hate, but which one are you saying is better? Im guessing the SC'er

09-06-2003, 02:55 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MoDiddy

Im dont know much about boost, so dont hate, but which one are you saying is better? Im guessing the SC'er

Well what do YOU want from your car?

When you can aswer what goals you want then you can answer your own question..

for example do you want 400 WHP?

In my opinion , in a maxima, I think the turbo is your best option. Takes more research, but the benfits are better

09-06-2003, 05:14 PM

#10

Craig Mack

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bags533

now.. I never said the SC was TQless.. kev actually said the 5th gen were TQless wonders due to the VI...

now when the VI is applied to a 4th gen we become TQ less wonders as well.

True True, which is why I will never buy a VI. I'd rather not lose ~10tq under 4000rpm.

Quote:

You said it yourself " What i'm surprised at is Matts V1 supercharger, which makes significantly more torque under 4000rpm at 15psi than Kevish's turbo at 10psi " the Turbo, PSI for PSI will produce MORE TQ than a SC. ( IN A MAXIMA )

True, but how much torque is kevinGee making per PSI? He cant be making much more than 10tq per psi, so even if they were at the same PSI, he probubly wouldn't have a terribly greater amount of TQ.

Turbo kits definatally seem to be breaking a lot of things, but the power seems to be rewarding. The SC is a very simple setup though, and can still deliver brutal power if your in the right power band.

09-06-2003, 05:50 PM

#11

ereet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Mack

Turbo kits definatally seem to be breaking a lot of things, but the power seems to be rewarding. The SC is a very simple setup though, and can still deliver brutal power if your in the right power band.

Turbo kits breaking things? I haven't heard of anything being broken other than the turbo kit itself, with the exception of Redmax's (which is a custommaxima kit ....) What's been broken?

09-06-2003, 06:51 PM

#12

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ereet

Turbo kits breaking things? I haven't heard of anything being broken other than the turbo kit itself, with the exception of Redmax's (which is a custommaxima kit ....) What's been broken?

check this forum for my thread about my tranny..

Broken, not now... but it was not working correctly.

I put that on the VI and 8 PSI of boost, thus to much acceleration and hp/tq for the transmission to shft up into anoother gear.

and there will be broken parts VERY soon by other members.. as soon as they start "testing" the waters.

Our cars were not built for 350 + WHP/TQ

Something is bound to give sooner or later...

But that is the fun of it

09-06-2003, 07:00 PM

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Y2KevSE

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If you guys want a "psi" to "psi" comparision (which won't be an accurate comparison) that makes similar horsepower, take jay25's dyno graph and compare it to mine.

Code:

             Approximate hp and torque
RPM          Jaime           Me
2500         80/175         85/180
3000         110/185       120/200
3500         135/185       145/220
4000         150/200       195/255<~~~255
4500         185/215       260/305
5000         230/240       290/310
5500         255/250       305/295
6000         295/260       317/275<~~~275
6500         321/260       315/250

09-06-2003, 07:09 PM

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Y2KevSE

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Of course... no disrespect to Jaime. Just trying to do a comparison here.

09-06-2003, 07:42 PM

#15

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Y2KevSE

If you guys want a "psi" to "psi" comparision (which won't be an accurate comparison) that makes similar horsepower, take jay25's dyno graph and compare it to mine.

Code:

             Approximate hp and torque
RPM          Jaime           Me
2500         80/175         85/180
3000         110/185       120/200
3500         135/185       145/220
4000         150/200       195/255<~~~255
4500         185/215       260/305
5000         230/240       290/310
5500         255/250       305/295
6000         295/260       317/275<~~~275
6500         321/260       315/250

That is why I used YOUR dyno that you were nice enough to post

That was as close of a comparison as one could ask for.. the only way it could have been better was if you were at 11 PSI.. but life and examples aren't perfect.

and jay knows we love him.. he still kicks my ****

EDIT: i just threw in your qoute with it .. less work for me

09-09-2003, 02:54 PM

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IceY2K1

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Nice...

This is a little easier to see IMO.

It lost the color in the PDF converison, but hopefully the attachment works.

09-09-2003, 03:08 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bags533

That is why I used YOUR dyno that you were nice enough to post

those numbers are higher then my baggs

, why is it that you fall off a bit close to redline?

isnt the MEVI suppose to pick that up? I am lost

09-09-2003, 03:41 PM

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Stephen Max

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JAY25

those numbers are higher then my baggs

, why is it that you fall off a bit close to redline?

isnt the MEVI suppose to pick that up? I am lost

That is the downside of a turbo compared to a supercharger. You see that high rpm power drop in all the dyno plots I have seen for turbocharged Maximas. A SC will continue to make increasing power up to whatever redline you choose. A turbo that is chosen for minimum boost threshold and lag time will eventually run out of pumping power in a high revving engine. If you pick a bigger turbo that does not run out of breath, you increase the lag time and the boost threshold.

In general, a turbocharged car is best run at lower rpm and shifted earlier than a supercharged car, which is always shifted at redline for maximum acceleration. It should be interesting to compare power under the curve for a turbo'd Maxima compared to a SC'ed Maxima with, say, a 7200 rpm redline.

09-09-2003, 03:48 PM

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96sleeper

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IceY2K1

This is a little easier to see IMO.

It lost the color in the PDF converison, but hopefully the attachment works.

That is an awesome graph. It really shows what is meant by area under the curve. Jay makes more peak power, but in a race with all other things equal, keving's car is alot faster. The 5th gen does weigh a little more, but I don't think it would matter.

09-09-2003, 03:55 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by 96sleeper

see how steep it is in the middle adios keving slow down let me catch up

aint no way Ill catch up even if he falls off at 5K, all I would see is his lights, no way no how, plus I shift at the end while his still going, thats how that trans am kept up with me w/every shift I made and I think I am a pretty good shifter. Bottom line Kevin has the ideal setup. T4/t4 <---dunno the specs of his turbo since I dunno much about them, trust me I love that setup very much.

09-09-2003, 04:08 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JAY25

see how steep it is in the middle adios keving slow down let me catch up

Especially, considering he was NOT tuned and running on bad plugs.

BB turbos RULE!

Quote:

T4/t4 <---dunno the specs of his turbo since I dunno much about them, trust me I love that setup very much.

Per Kevin:

Turbonetics T4/T04E turbo
Ceramic ball-bearing center section, wet housing (closing off the water passage for now)
Super series compressor wheel
Big shaft<~~~~

Polished compressor housing
Turbine side: On center, .81 A/R, "P" trim
Compressor side: "60" trim, 2.290" inducer, 2.950" major, 3" inlet

09-09-2003, 04:48 PM

#22

IceY2K1

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JAY25

see how steep it is in the middle adios keving slow down let me catch up

Kev = Top two curves
You = Bottom two curves

I'm not sure I'm seeing what you're saying. Kevs puts down more HP until 6400rpm(redline) and more TQ until 6250rpm.

However, you would OWN Kev from 6500-7200 IF the SC can spin that fast.

Got JWT ECU?

09-09-2003, 05:04 PM

#23

IceY2K1

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Just for kicks...Mardi vs. Kev

09-09-2003, 05:12 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IceY2K1

you dont understand, I wont, it wont happen trust me on this one, not a chance, theres no way you can recover from 4plus car lengths thats just too much distance to catch up, plus you just said what I missed so with the HP he makes impossible, it all adds up now

09-09-2003, 05:17 PM

#25

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IceY2K1

Just for kicks...Mardi vs. Kev

on that dyno plot Keving still would pull on Matt right away, remember is not the regular stuff here is that BB turbo. I seen one in action already

, now can he close the gap

I dont know, I lined up with him at the track when he had the 3.125 and he would pull away from me very fast, interesting to see these figures in paper.

09-09-2003, 05:24 PM

#26

IceY2K1

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Mardi HP: 0-4200, 4750-redline
Kev HP: 4200-4750

Mardi TQ: 0-4100, 5100+

Kev TQ: 4100-5100

It's AMAZING how similar they are to 5000rpm, but 5000+ Bye-bye Keving.

09-09-2003, 05:33 PM

#27

IceY2K1

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I'm betting with the new 3" exhaust things would change in Kevs' favor. He has to be choking that turbo by 5000rpm.

09-09-2003, 05:35 PM

#28

Synki

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Geez, look at that A/F ratio.

Smoothen out that dip.

09-09-2003, 07:30 PM

#29

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See I just find it when comparing dyno's you want to keep it as perfect as possible.

The DYNO charts ROCK!!!! BTW

But comparing 2 different cars on 2 different dyno's in 2 different regions just puts to many variables in there for me.

I understand why you did it, and I may play with ALL of them and try and make a cool chart in .pdf like you

09-10-2003, 04:23 AM

#30

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IceY2K1

I'm betting with the new 3" exhaust things would change in Kevs' favor. He has to be choking that turbo by 5000rpm.

he loves that greddy like I doD:, yeah that solves the issue right there, the 2.5 exhaust, at 3 inch exhaust hes out there all the way to redline, is like you running breathing out of a straw, I try to explain that to a .org member last night talking about his exhaust is too loud. He can go and quiet it down but when that manifold exhaust gets too hot he will know why.

09-10-2003, 08:35 AM

#31

Y2KevSE

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Quote:

Originally Posted by IceY2K1

I'm betting with the new 3" exhaust things would change in Kevs' favor. He has to be choking that turbo by 5000rpm.

Matt had a 3" on, which really helped him. To give you an idea of how a larger exhaust helps, he made 337 hp and 285 torque without the 3" exhaust. I don't remember what he did between the two dyno sessions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synki

Geez, look at that A/F ratio.

Smoothen out that dip.

Sorry.

The car was going to be tuned, but 2 of my plugs messed up on the dyno.

09-10-2003, 09:09 AM

#32

Ramius83

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JAY25

Kev are you going to a custom 3 inch exhaust? or are you going to try to get one from warpspeed?

I personally love my Greddy SP, to me is not that loud compared to other exhausts I seen like the Stillen which is very loud. The custom 3 inch that Ramius has is pretty loud, bagss exhaust is not loud I can live with that. I was planning on contacting Greddy and see if they are willing to make me a 3inch exhaust, dunno if they would do that but hey nothing hurts to try

Jaime, the 3 inch exhaust does not affect the loudness of the car, it is the muffler that determines this. You can get the full 3 inch mandrel bent exhaust done at Grand Muffler (no welds all the way to the top of the axle) with your muffler for $275.00, just use a quieter/better muffler.