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Aftermarket gearsets, built 5 speeds, 6 speeds, etc.

Old 03-03-2007, 07:10 AM
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Aftermarket gearsets, built 5 speeds, 6 speeds, etc.

OK Iíve been sitting on this information and these parts for quite a few months now because I wanted to get things up and running before posting so I donít look like a jackazz, but Iím sufficiently positive that this will work and I've noticed a ton of people posting about doing 6 speed swaps in their car in the quest for a transmission to hold more power than our stock 5 spd and I want people to know all their options.

Our transmission, known by Nissan as the RS5F50A (open diff) and RS5F50V (viscous limited slip diff), is used in a number of other nissan cars. The important one for this discussion is the Nissan Sunny and Nissan Pulsar GTI-R. The N14 Pulsar GTI-R is pretty popular in Australia. There are also a couple good aftermarket gear manufacturers in Australia... see where I'm going with this?

PPG aka Pfitzner Performance Gearbox happens to make complete gearsets for this transmission. PAR Engineeringalso makes gearsets for this transmission. Quaife also make gearsets for this transmission. This info is courtesy of MardiGrasMax, the one who brought it to my attention. He did some research, then I did some research, and we both came to the conclusion that the N14 OEM gears and shafts are the same (though 3rd and 4th gear have slightly different ratios) and that they would go into our transmission without modification. A few other companies also used to make gearsets for this transmission but those are apparently out of production now.

I should note that I work at one of the premier manual transmission modification shops in the country. I don't consider myself an expert, but my boss IS an expert, he's been in the game for over 15 years now. I know a good deal about manual transmissions now as well - I've worked on upwards of six or seven hundred DSM and Evo transmissions (call it an average of 10-12 a week, for the last 60 weeks or so that I've been working at the shop). I'm constantly learning new things from my boss and the wealth of knowledge I have now that I didn't have a year and a half ago is astounding. We deal with PPG and PAR gearsets all the time. They are both high quality gearsets. It is the opinion of my boss that between the two manufacturers, PPG is ever so slightly higher quality. Of note is the fact that John Shepherd (one of our competitors in the DSM/Evo transmission business) runs a PPG gearset in his 7 second DSM. There are countless other DSMs and Evos in the 8s and 9s on PPG gearsets - so obviously PPG knows a thing or two about making a gear.

PPG offers a couple different options for our transmission. They have a straight cut synchromesh set, and a straight cut dog engagement set. I opted for the straight cut synchromesh set because it utilizes the stock synchros and the idea of driving a dog box on the street daily doesn't appeal to me as I'm sure it won't appeal to most other maxima owners. Dog boxes are loud (not talking about gear whine here, I'm talking about when you shift they are clunky and clatter and require significant attention to RPM, shifter movement, etc. Dogboxes are basically a race only transmission type). Straight cut gears whine. How loud the PPG gearset is going to whine is something I don't know because I don't have it installed in my car yet. I've read that it is a fairly loud, high pitched whine. I opted to purchase ONLY 3rd and 4th gears. The reason for this is that I'm not rich. A full 1-4 PPG synchromesh set will set you back on the order $3200 before duties, tariffs, taxes, shipping, and whatever else. I'd expect that to your door you'd probably be looking at $3500 maybe a little bit more. PPG's price list is here http://www.ppgearbox.com.au/html/doc...%20SEPT-06.pdf and it's in Australian dollars, so you must convert.

The 3rd and 4th gearsets can be had for about $725ish each after tariffs and what not, making it about $1450 to get them (I paid a bit less because of shop to shop discount, so I donĎt know the exact price for normal retail. And I already asked my boss about me getting deals for people and he said no because if I get deals for people, everyone else there is going to want to get deals for people, etc. So donĎt bother asking heh). If one wished, you could just get 3rd gear (most at risk for breakage) though I opted to get 3rd and 4th gear because I've broken 4th gear (more on that later). In fact just getting 3rd gear might not be a bad idea for NA guys who want to go this route. Here are some pictures of my PPG 3rd and 4th gears, compared to stock 3rd and 4th gears (an intact one and a broken one) and also for fun a 3rd gear out of a Toyota Supra Getrag 6spd transmission (a badass transmission that I happened to take apart the other day and had the gears laying on the bench right next to where I was taking these pics).

I must note that I have NOT installed these gears in my trans yet - I am waiting on some other things (more info later on that) before I install them. I had wanted to get them installed before posting, so that I could say with 100% certainty that they work, however for the reasons I outlined above, I decided to post now. I have measured every concievable dimension of both the PPG and OEM gears, and all dimensions are within 0.01 millimeters, it is the belief of both myself and my boss that these gears will work just fine on our stock trans without any modification to anything. So I'm 99.99% sure that these will work.



PPG 3rd, OEM 3rd, broken OEM 3rd





PPG 4th, OEM 4th, broken OEM 4th





PPG 3rd, OEM 3rd, Supra Getrag 3rd







Again, different angle

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Old 03-03-2007, 07:12 AM
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For informational purposes, here are a couple pics that PPG sent me of their N14 dog box setup. FYI a 1st-4th dog box would set you back about $4400 or so, add on about $1500 for 5th gear if you wanted it, about $350 for the 3-4 selector fork (recommended because the stock 3-4 fork has a habit of breaking when being jammed into gear like you have to do with a dog box), and about $1750 if you wanted to change your final drive ratio to 4.066 - bling bling.

PPG complete dog set - 1st through 4th and input shaft compared with stock - 1-2 and 3-4 hub sleeve assemblies on the top




3-4 billet selector fork





The shafts all put together

notice it utilizes the stock main shaft (sometimes called counter shaft, output shaft, pinion shaft). In case anyone's wondering, from left to right it goes 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th gear. 5th gear is not installed in these pics.



That's basically it for the PPG gearset. Now onto the PAR. The PAR gearset appears to be more popular with the guys on the australian Pulsar message boards. PAR offers both helical cut (angled teeth) and straight cut gears. The prices seem to be similar to the PPG prices above, though it’s been a long time since I actually priced them exactly, so you might want to check if you’re interested in PAR. They also offer both synchromesh and dog style engagement with each tooth style.

For whatever reason, the pic I got from PAR and all the pics on their website are complete and utter crap quality. Like cell phone pics from 4 years ago. Here they are.


PAR Helical cut synchromesh gearset



Image from PAR's website - rehosted so I don't break it (don't sue me)


More pics and info available at http://www.par-engineering.com/nissa...htm#nissangtir
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Old 03-03-2007, 07:12 AM
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Quaife also makes a dog gearset for the N14 GTI-R. It was my boss’ opinion that the PPG and PAR gear sets are of superior quality as compared to the Quaife which I found surprising based on how much he loves their differentials. Though I have seen posts on forums about people with Quaife gear sets and some claim them to be the best things since sliced bread. Price on the Quaife looks like $4295. It doesn’t appear that you can buy individual gears though I never bothered to check on that fact.

Picture of the quaife gearset here





Incidentally, the 3rd gen and 4th gen transmissions are identical inside I believe (they have different cases with mount holes in different positions). So I believe that the Pulsar aftermarket gears would also work in 3rd gens. I'll probably be inside my buddy's turbo 3rd gen trans at some point in the near future and I can confirm this then, but I'm quite sure that this is the case.
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Old 03-03-2007, 07:13 AM
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Some of you might be wondering about the differences between helical cut and straight cut gear teeth. This information is information I have learned from my boss, from research online, and from other sources.

There is much debate over this topic, but it is the belief of my boss that if ALL ELSE IS EQUAL that helical cut gears offer greater torque capacity. However all else is never equal, so there are arguments for and against each style.

Helical cut gears engage two or three teeth at once because of the way they are designed. The contact between the gear faces however is only partial on each gear face at any given time. Helical cut gears create axial loads which put added stress on the transmission case, sometimes to the extent of causing the case to break. This has actually happened to some of the Pulsar GTI-R guys. However I believe that they are doing this on hard launches (the GTI-R is all wheel drive, it has a transfer case hung off the back side of the transmission). MardiGras found this picture of a custom case brace that some guy had made to prevent his transmission case from breaking again. Credit MardiGras for sending me this pic - not sure where he got it, I assume on some forum.



I've never heard of anyone with a maxima cracking a case, and honestly, guys here seem to be putting down more power than guys on the Pulsar forums, so I really believe this to be an AWD launching issue (and the incredible shock loads that AWD launches produce) rather than a simple torque issue. 350whp seems to be a big deal for the Pulsar guys just to give you an example of what they're doing for power down there - they're running 1.6, 1.8, and 2.0L engines.

Back to helical cut vs straight cut. Helical cut gears also reduce gear whine which is caused by the quick compression of air between the teeth of straight cut gears. To quote DaWifey's90 who said he has 15 years of experience analyzing and designing gears for industrial applications:

...regarding general automobile applications (i.e. not including the behemouth trannies u find in industrial machines), straight cut teeth only fully engage one gear at a time whereas helicals (depending on the slope of the helix) engage at least 2 or 3 at the same time. both types of teeth will fail but for very different reasons. straight teeth are very robust but each tooth is subject to the full brunt of shockloads. helicals are less robust in structure but since the load is distributed across several teeth, the robustness is not as vital for each tooth to survive...

...as for the correlation between noise and strength, noise is the alternating compression and expansion of air. so what causes this distortion of air in straight gears that doesn't happen in helicals? it's the slamming of the teeth together. all that load focused one one tooth of one gear slamming down on one tooth of another = noise. as u so eloquently put it, helicals "roll" onto each other and distribute that load = much less noise. this noise, aside of being the byproduct of teeth slamming into each other, also causes considerable vibration which contributes to the weakness of straight gears. this is also y manufacturers only use the cheapo straight gears for reverse applications and helicals for forward gears. aside of the noise in reverse which most don't mind, there also isn't much need for strength in reverse...

...perhaps the one of the greatest weaknesses in helical applications isn't so much the gear itself but getting a bearing strong enough to support the natural tendency for them to slide out of phase of each other. helicals naturally want to slide foward or backward along the shaft....this is where u start getting into pre-load and thrust loads on bearings - in ansense, these are the shockload equivalents to straight gears...
As DaWifey's90 said, straight cut gears have the loads distributed across a single gear face rather than 2 or 3, but those loads are distributed across a larger surface area on that single face than on the individual faces of the 3 gear teeth engaged in a helical cut gear, so there are pros and cons to each type.

Like I said, most would say that helical cut gears are stronger ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL, but most race cars run straight cut gears, so obviously you can get a strong gear with both types.
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Old 03-03-2007, 07:14 AM
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5 speed vs 6 speed

I've noticed alot of talk lately about guys wanting to swap 6 speeds in their cars. For some people I think this is a good option, for others I think it's not so good (remember this is just my opinion).

JClaw brought up a very valid point in a discussion we were having - that point was that the 6spd is available with a Helical Limited Slip Differential - a superior design to the viscous limited slip so coveted by many. For some, this is a strong selling point. No need to buy a Quaife. Also better reliability (VLSDs will fail if overheated. Some last 150k miles, others have ruined theirs in a single day of hot lapping around a road course in high powered cars that like to spin one tire coming out of corners - or so I've heard).

So the HLSD is a big plus for the 6spd swap. Another is the gearing. It's got a taller 1st gear and yet shorter 2nd-5th which is good for acceleration. Also there are multiple final drive options for them (not all available with HLSD necessarily, I don't believe.) Having a 6th gear for cruising is always nice to keep the gas mileage a little better.

Another issue to note is the labor involved in a 6spd swap vs a built 5spd. A built 5spd (whether it's modified stock gears or aftermarket gears) will require a transmission teardown. Many people lack the skill, confidence, tools, or desire to tear down and rebuild a transmission - or lack the money to pay someone else to do it. For some, installing a 6spd trans that they don't have to tear down is more appealing and easier/less costly. The 6spd also doesn't have the input shaft bearing or differential bearing problems the 5spd does (to my knowledge anyways).

As far as strength goes, it is my belief that people are putting too much stock in this transmission, so to speak. Aichi Machine Industry, who makes both the maxima 5spd and maxima 6spd (called the MFA60 on their website) only rates the 6spd transmission at 14% higher torque capacity than the 5spd (206ft-lb working torque for the 5spd vs 236ft-lb working torque for the 6spd, which is kindof odd because the 3.5L motor is rated higher than that stock).

Aichi Machine's chart off their website listing the torque ratings of the F50A (5spd) vs the MFA60 (6spd). Image credit to Aichi Machine Industry (please don't sue me) http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q.../glaph_fwd.gif just rehosting so I hopefully don't break their link from too much traffic or anything




People bring up the point that Tilley ran his 6spd into the 11s. Tilley also broke 3rd gear in his 6 speed. I don't think he ever posted about it (haven't seen him post in ages) but he told me this back in the summer (hope that wasn't supposed to be a secret or anything). So, I don't think the 6spd is bulletproof by any means. I've never been inside one, but those that have said the gears are not much beefier than the 5spd.

MardiGras ran 11s and 130mph on a modified stock gear 5spd, he also broke it multiple times (details below). I also ran 11s @ 123mph on a completely stock 5spd, though I'd broken 3rd in a stock trans and 4th in my built trans prior to running my car at the track (with LOTS more abuse overall than my current stock 5spd transmission has seen.) For me, every when I had my boost turned up at the track had me holding my breath hoping that each shift wouldn't be the shift that broke yet another trans. It’s not much fun worrying about your trans like that. I got AAA for the free tow service not because I was worried about breaking a motor, but because I was worried about breaking a trans. Luckily both times I did break a trans I was near home.

Personally, I think that for a mild to moderate FI setup or NA setup, the 6spd is a viable option. However if you are going with a powerful FI setup and looking at more than 400ish or so ft/lb at the wheels I'd probably recommend a strong gearset like the ones I mentioned earlier over a 6spd, but that's just my opinion.
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Old 03-03-2007, 07:14 AM
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Building up the 5spd

I see people posting often about building up their 5spd transmission. I think this is a valid option still for mild to moderate FI setups. There is a book called How to Rebuild and Modify your Manual Transmission which I just found out my boss was actually a contributor to (including providing most if not all of the pictures of the DSM 5spd trans along with RRE and this cover picture). Image from amazon.com (again please don't sue)



I have not read the book though I intend to, it received 5 out of 5 stars on Amazon from every person who reviewed it http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/cus...2932672&sr=8-1 It might be worth checking out for people considering building/rebuilding their trans.

It’s no secret though that I broke 4th gear in my built trans eventually after I ran my built trans at 14psi+ every day, including many, many, many sessions of tuning and doing WOT runs back to back to back, and at the track, for months, and a few (maybe 15) passes at the track.

Likewise MardiGras broke both 3rd and 4th eventually in his built up transmission. He told me he made probably 50 passes at low 12 to mid 11 second power levels trapping 120-125ish with a few 125-130mph passes peppered in there, plus lots and lots of street tuning (this is especially hard on your trans because you are doing runs back to back to back at WOT) at 18psi when 3rd finally let go. Then he got the trans back together and immediately broke 4th.

The first order of business after teardown is to thoroughly inspect your components. Make sure you are not about to modify parts that should be put in the scrap bin. Pitting, especially on 1st gear on the input shaft and the main shaft is exceedingly common. Excessive wear on 1st and 2nd gear is also quite common ESPECIALLY in transmissions that have had significant input shaft bearing failure (or main shaft bearing failure, though that never seems to be an issue in our transmissions). The 1st/2nd sleeve is often banged up from shifting hard into 2nd gear (or back into 1st gear if the transmission has been autocrossed/road raced or driven by someone who likes to jam it in 1st gear while moving). Making sure your bearings are in good shape is key. We all know of the infamous input shaft bearing failure, here’s a crappy cell phone picture of what a bad input shaft bearing looks like. Top one is bad, obviously.



This one isn’t even that bad compared to some people‘s, my input shaft seal hadn’t started leaking yet from shaft play unlike many people have had happen. Also common of course is the differential bearing problem so check your diff bearings for any weird wear or chipping on the rollers, excessive play, etc.

Magnafluxing is worth it’s weight in gold in my opinion, and it’s kind of crazy not to magnaflux or otherwise inspect your gears, sleeves, and shafts for microscopic cracks prior to building it. Most engine building shops should have a magnaflux or similar device for inspecting cylinder heads, and they can be used to inspect gears too. We have one at the shop, and I can’t tell you how often we find components that have cracks which are invisible to the naked eye but then become lit up like the Goodyear blimp under the magnaflux light. Obviously you don’t want to reuse or modify cracked components.

I had my AE LSD transmission deburred, detailed and cryo treated when it comes to power handling. In addition I had some proprietary tricks done to improve the shift quality of the trans and let me tell you, the thing shifted better than any maxima trans you‘ve ever felt. This was before I worked at the trans shop. If I had it to do over again, I’d have the gears shot peened and perhaps forego the cryo treating. Cryo treating gets a lot of lip service but in my opinion it’s not the magical gear strengthening procedure many seem to think it is. The general consensus is that cryo treating can result in strength increases of up to about 10%. However, some gear steels do not react as well to cryo treating and don’t see those types of gains. How much the steels used in the maxima trans benefit from it is something I don’t know because I never bothered to pay the $150 per gear it costs to have a material burn off done to analyze the gear steels. You have to make up your own mind as to whether it’s worth the $250 or so it costs to cryo treat your gears.

Deburring/detailing the gears is very beneficial. It eliminates stress risers on the edges of the gears, lowering the likelyhood of stress cracks which cause gear failure. One can do this on their own, all it takes is a little pencil grinder/die grinder/dremel, the appropriate grinding bit, and a little know how. If one were doing an extreme budget transmission build, this is the one thing you want to make sure to do (assuming you do it correctly. Mess it up and you could potentially weaken the gears).

One thing I did not have done to my built 5spd which I would do now, is shot peening the gears after deburring/detailing them. Gears are shot peened from the factory but even that shot peening can be improved upon. It also is effective on used gears that have seen some wear (obviously you don’t want to put a bunch of effort into modifying gears that have significant wear on them). I’ve heard estimates that on some gears, a 25-30% strength increase can be realized from shot peening. Incidentally, I plan on getting 1st and 2nd and 5th gears shot peened in the transmission that I’m putting the PPG 3rd and 4th gears into. You’re probably looking at $300ish to shot peen, that‘s what I was told. Shot peening is a complicated process to set up, it requires very expensive equipment and a lot of time to set up to shot peen specific parts. Once the setup is complete, the process of shot peening only takes a matter of minutes and is typically automated, so often times, quantity will reduce the cost. If you had 3 gear sets of the same type you wanted shot peened, many times the cost would be barely more (if at all) than a single set of gears. Of course this depends on the shop you are having do the work. You would want to shot peen AFTER deburring/detailing the gears, because the act of deburring/detailing will remove some of the factory outer shot peened layer of steel.

All of these procedures could also be done to the 6spd if one wanted, and of course you’d end up with a transmission at least a bit stronger than a built 5spd would be.


A note about differentials

I discovered something recently while just looking at the viscous limited slip compared to the open differential - the viscous limited slip has four spider gears as opposed to just two in the open diff (these are in addition to the two side gears in each differential, meaning that technically there are 6 gears in the VLSD and 4 gears in the open diff). This means that the differential in the VLSD trans is significantly stronger than the differential in the open diff trans. I have heard of people breaking the open diff spider gears on launches in the maxima, and breaking them from wheel hop (wheel hop can break ANYTHING , modified, stock, or aftermarket. It puts astronomical shock loads on the entire drivetrain, avoid it at all costs). The Quaife I can only assume is as strong, likely even stronger, as they are warranteed under all conditions including race conditions, and also mardigras never broke his when launching at 6000+ at 20psi plus nitrous out of the hole. That’s some abuse right there, and his held up.

So that’s about it for now I think. Sorry about the jumbled nature of the post, I keep on thinking of things to add and I have to go back and add them and sometimes it messes up the flow of my writing. I’ve put about 7 hours worth of research, formatting, picture finding and linking into this post in the last two days trying to make it as comprehensive as possible so I hope it is helpful to you guys. If I think of anything else I’ll add it.


Edit: 7-19-2007 Adding some info on alternate gear ratios that I've found

Found these on an Australian pulsar GTI-R webpage. The gear ratios here are for the RA and RB spec N14 Pulsar GTI-R available overseas. Not that they're terribly useful for most people, but i thought it was interesting. For the record, the stock gear ratios in the RA spec GTI-R are the same as ours in 3rd, 4th and 5th generation maximas except for Fifth gear, which is the taller gear like that used in the L30 Altima.


What really has me interested is the taller 1st gear. Since I'm going to be replacing 1st gear in my transmission anyways, I'm going to inquire with dave b about the possibility of getting that RB spec 1st gear (if it's available still) as it's a good bit taller than the stock 1st gear is, which will help with the high power FWD 1st gear spinnage a little bit (along with taller tires).

I'm assuming these gears would all work in a 3rd, 4th, or 5th gen manual transmission because the research I've done indicates it is the same gearbox, just different ratios.


Here are the ratios, and also screenshots of the speed in each gear as taken from the Fatboyraceworks gear speed calculator except with the maxima 5th gear substituted instead of the Altima/GTI-R RA 5th gear since basically no maxima has that except the couple people who have done that swap).

1st - RA: 3.285 (RB: 3.067)
2nd - RA: 1.850 (RB: 2.095)
3rd - RA: 1.272 (RB: 1.653)
4th - RA: 0.954 (RB: 1.272)
5th - RA: 0.740 (RB: 0.911) (stock maxima 5th gear is .795)


Stock 6550rpm limiter





Typical 7200 RPM limiter



Here is where I ultimately found the data

http://www.gtiroz.net/

Here is the fatboyraceworks gear ratio calculator with Maxima gears and RB gears already filled in, in case you want to mess with the myriad custom combinations that could be made of gears, final drives, and rev limiters. There are quite a few different final drives available too, both shorter and taller.

http://fatboyraceworks.com/gears/

Edit 8-01-2007 - found yet another couple gear ratios I think would work in our trans

Found yet a couple more different gears I believe would work. These are from a couple different U12/U13 Bluebird models. U12: SSS, SSS-X, SSS-X-II. U13: SSS-G, ARX-Z, ARX-G

1st gear: 3.400
2nd gear: 1.955

FD: 4.471 and 4.167 - I think Jclaw and others already posted these ratios though.
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Old 03-03-2007, 07:15 AM
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reserved incase I need another post
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Old 03-03-2007, 07:24 AM
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You da man Neal, take'm into the 10's (Or at least into the deep 11's hundreds and hundreds of times with no more broken gears!) For he's a jolly good fellow... sing it with me... that nobody can deny!
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Old 03-03-2007, 08:05 AM
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Wow. Took me a long time to read all that, but it was well worth it. Thank you, sir, for taking all of this time to not only do all that research, but share it with the community as well
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Old 03-03-2007, 08:18 AM
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Awesome info. Still trying to digest all of it. Any internal options for the 6 speed?


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Old 03-03-2007, 09:46 AM
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I will add some pictures to the post, since I too am working on a transmission build.


broken tranny at the track last October.




Cause of the breakage. broken diff. The shaft that the spider gears ride on let go. 6000 rpm launches are hard on a stock open diff. (or any diff for that matter)




Compare the open diff the the VLSD tranny that I am putting. You can see the missing spider gears in the open diff, and how much beefier the 4 spider VLSD diff is.





Here is a good reason to dissassemble the shafts when you buy a used tranny. Bearings are not the only thing that go bad. This is a surface where a gear rides.




I am also using PPG 3rd and 4th gears in my tranny build. I went with straight cut gears also. Neal, PPG told me that they offered straight and helical cut in the synchro gears. Andrew talked me into the straight cut though.











I am in the middle of my build and should be done within the month. It would be sooner but I had to purchase a new input shaft and all new bearings for this transmission I bought that was supposed to be in good running shape.
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Old 03-03-2007, 09:46 AM
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For the rest of my gears, 1, 2, 5 and the input and main shaft, I sent them out to be shot peened, and then CRYO-REM treated. This process can be investigated at evansperformance.com for anyone interested. The parts were cyro treated and then REM finished, which is a micro-finishing process to make the gears smoother. Some say this can hurt some gears if done too much because it lowers the gear's ability to retain as much oil between the teeth which can hurt the shock loading capacity. I read more into it and decided it was a really good process and I decided to try it. Many race teams use this process, including nascar teams. Not only does it lower friction, but it is supposed to increase gear strength by increasing the tooth contact area.

This process even makes more horsepower. An LS1 car dynoed 12whp more after having only the ring and pinion in the rear end CRYO-REM treated.

http://www.evansperformance.com/gearb.jpg
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Old 03-03-2007, 09:48 AM
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Another shot of the PPG gears. These fit perfectly onto the shafts and with the OEM synchros.

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Old 03-03-2007, 09:49 AM
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PAR/PPG have been around for a long time.. the problem is, most people can't afford to swing 4-5 grand for a transmission.. I've also seen PAR gearsets break up at the 500whp level, in a FWD Sentra trans. I'm not saying that it's not a good idea.. all that I'm saying is that any time you drag race, and put power to the pavement.. things are going to break. It might not break in 10 passes.. or 20.. maybe 50 passes.. but, eventually, it will. I'd rather buy 2 or 3 6spds within a 4-5 year period, than buy 1 or 2 built transmissions over a 5 year period.. The 6spd HLSD is a good option.. they safely hold 400whp/400wtq from our experience in the Senta platform.. I've seen 1 transmission break in the 5 years that I've been in the Sentra community. They definitely hold more than 235ft lbs of TQ.

Travis
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Old 03-03-2007, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by TurboS13Hatch
PAR/PPG have been around for a long time.. the problem is, most people can't afford to swing 4-5 grand for a transmission.. I've also seen PAR gearsets break up at the 500whp level, in a FWD Sentra trans. I'm not saying that it's not a good idea.. all that I'm saying is that any time you drag race, and put power to the pavement.. things are going to break. It might not break in 10 passes.. or 20.. maybe 50 passes.. but, eventually, it will. I'd rather buy 2 or 3 6spds within a 4-5 year period, than buy 1 or 2 built transmissions over a 5 year period.. The 6spd HLSD is a good option.. they safely hold 400whp/400wtq from our experience in the Senta platform.. I've seen 1 transmission break in the 5 years that I've been in the Sentra community. They definitely hold more than 235ft lbs of TQ.

Travis
Good to know. I want to clarify that i was not suggesting that the 6spd was only good for our uses to 235 ft-lb, but just rather pointing out that that is what Aichi rates it at for it's last forever, working torque which is really just typically a figure they come up with by dividing the immediate burst torque by three or so. Obviously both transmissions can last for our uses at higher torque capacities for significant periods of time. I've never been inside a 6spd but I'd like to get inside one to formulate a better opinion of it rather than just guesstimating from a chart. It's nice to see that they are holding up to power levels in the sentras. Maybe Aichi just lowballed the trans on the chart and my estimate doesn't give it it's due credit.
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Old 03-03-2007, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by nismology
Awesome info. Still trying to digest all of it. Any internal options for the 6 speed?



I don't know of any aftermarket internals for the 6spd but that doesn't mean that no one makes them. There are a ton of gear manufacturers out there.
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Old 03-03-2007, 10:40 AM
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96sleeper I was going to mention that you had been working on your ppg setup, but I didn't know if you wanted that kept secret or not. Good point about the shafts and the galling of the metal under the gears (I'd forgotten that I've got that on one of my shafts as well). That is a really lame design in my opinion, I actually thought of trying to mill down that area and then polishing it smooth and trying to find a needle roller bearing that would fit under there, but that's alot of work. Probably more cost effective to just buy a new shaft and run a good oil and change it frequently heh.
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Old 03-03-2007, 10:49 AM
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good info Neal
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Old 03-03-2007, 11:39 AM
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Here is a better pic of the PAR helical gearset.



http://www.gccorp.com.au/automotive/...roducts_id=108
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Old 03-03-2007, 11:59 AM
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^^^ nice - wish they had sent me one like that.
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Old 03-03-2007, 06:20 PM
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Neal, I love you and hate you at the same time
....im going to be poor


Anyways, awesome post.
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Old 03-03-2007, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Nealoc187
Good to know. I want to clarify that i was not suggesting that the 6spd was only good for our uses to 235 ft-lb, but just rather pointing out that that is what Aichi rates it at for it's last forever, working torque which is really just typically a figure they come up with by dividing the immediate burst torque by three or so. Obviously both transmissions can last for our uses at higher torque capacities for significant periods of time. I've never been inside a 6spd but I'd like to get inside one to formulate a better opinion of it rather than just guesstimating from a chart. It's nice to see that they are holding up to power levels in the sentras. Maybe Aichi just lowballed the trans on the chart and my estimate doesn't give it it's due credit.
No doubt.. I mean, if this stuff was a little more affordable.. I'd be all over it like white on rice.. but, at 4-5K, it's just not practical for most people, including myself. I've been lucky.. the only trans that I ever exploded.. was my 5spd behind my 660whp S13 drag car.. it went through 3 transmissions and 2 rear ends.
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Old 03-03-2007, 06:51 PM
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Neal once again you are a big contributor to this community. Great find and great post. Mods please make this a STICKY!!!!
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Old 03-05-2007, 09:23 AM
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you continue to amaze me Neal, very nice.
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Old 03-05-2007, 11:14 AM
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Great work Neal! Sometimes the technical prowess of our members on a forum about 4 door family cars is simply amazing.
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Old 03-05-2007, 03:12 PM
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Great information Neal. Thanks for taking the lead in researching/investigating gearset options for our transmissions.

Selfless acts as illustrated by you in this post are what make our maxima community strong.

Now, time to re-evaluate how savvy my proposed 6-speed swap really is...
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Old 03-05-2007, 06:25 PM
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Can I swap in a 300zx twin turbo motor in my maxima??

J/K good stuff as always Neal
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by I30tMikeD
Can I swap in a 300zx twin turbo motor in my maxima??
maybe..... http://blehmco.com/pics/car/engine/n...e/100_1680.jpg




Good post, Neal. Unfortunately you made it ONE MONTH TO LATE! I just got done rebuilding my VE tranny for the umpteenth time, replacing 1st gear, input shaft and bearings.

Any ideas on solutions for the input shaft bearing problems?

I've got some good shots of a broken/cracked 1st gear and input shaft here:
http://blehmco.com/pics/car/drivetrain/tranny/nov_2006/

Also several shots of a bad input shaft bearing just 8,000 miles before:
http://blehmco.com/pics/car/drivetrain/tranny/
(look at 1405-1410).

Feel free to use any of those pics as you wish. just give credit where it's due, as you have above.


I have one other question for you.. hoping someone can help and this looks like the perfect thread to find out...
The stock VLSD in the VE is the same as in the 4th gen. (as with most gears, bearings, shafts, etc like you mentioned above). Since the Quaife is designed around the open diff's dimensions, do those of us with VLSD have any options for something better? i.e. can the Quaife be modified/shimmed/etc to fit, or is there another option out there that will drop in place of the VLSD?
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Old 03-05-2007, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt93SE
maybe..... http://blehmco.com/pics/car/engine/n...e/100_1680.jpg




Good post, Neal. Unfortunately you made it ONE MONTH TO LATE! I just got done rebuilding my VE tranny for the umpteenth time, replacing 1st gear, input shaft and bearings.

Any ideas on solutions for the input shaft bearing problems?

I've got some good shots of a broken/cracked 1st gear and input shaft here:
http://blehmco.com/pics/car/drivetrain/tranny/nov_2006/

Also several shots of a bad input shaft bearing just 8,000 miles before:
http://blehmco.com/pics/car/drivetrain/tranny/
(look at 1405-1410).

Feel free to use any of those pics as you wish. just give credit where it's due, as you have above.


I have one other question for you.. hoping someone can help and this looks like the perfect thread to find out...
The stock VLSD in the VE is the same as in the 4th gen. (as with most gears, bearings, shafts, etc like you mentioned above). Since the Quaife is designed around the open diff's dimensions, do those of us with VLSD have any options for something better? i.e. can the Quaife be modified/shimmed/etc to fit, or is there another option out there that will drop in place of the VLSD?

Sorry bout the timing man. It's pretty easy to get that trans out of there though

As for the input shaft, no real ideas other than proper shimming. I can ask my boss if he knows any tricks for it.

Those pics are really good, they show input shaft pitting really well. How'd you crack first gear?

As for LSDs, I've done some looking (only about an hour's worth), no luck yet. I thought I had something on the pulsar forums but it turns out it that it was a Cusco LSD for the RS5F32V trans, not our RS5F50V trans. I'd like to get ahold of a few diffs for some of the other similar nissan transmissions to see if anything could be done, but that's not likely to happen ($$$). We do have experience at the shop making diffs fit into transmissions they aren't made for.

Problem with putting the quaife in there would be the axles - I bet custom spacers to fit the large VLSD bearings on the quaife could be made by a determined individual with access to some decent equipment - though I've never seen a quaife in person to make sure.
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Old 03-06-2007, 07:26 AM
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It was actually pretty mundane when 1st gear broke.

I'd just stopped on my way home from work and filled up on gas.. leave gas station and roll into the throttle in 1st gear. run 1/2 throttle to about 4500rpm (7000redline) and shift into 3rd to cruise to the light 1/4 mile down.

get there and I put it back in 1st to round a corner and it's making a funny noise when I'm on the throttle. let off and it's still there, but much quieter. shift into any other gear and it's almost completely gone. WTF?

I figured it was input shaft bearings, yet again.. so I got the car home (1 mile) and tore the tranny down. I pulled everything apart and couldn't see anything on the input bearings. started playing with main and diff bearings too, but I was sure it was on the input shaft side of it since it was RPM based and not speed based.

Anyway, I poked around in there for a while and finally started spinning the shafts together in the case. I could feel something binding on it, so I marked that spot on the gear and pulled he shafts out. flipped them over and voila! cracked teeth on 1st mainshaft gear and the input shaft gear was chewed up.

I wound up buying another transmission with dead input bearings and just swapped everything over from my tranny to it, using the few good parts I needed.
strange thing is that it now shifts into 3rd better than it ever has, but I didn't even touch that part of the gear stack. :shrug:


As for the quaife/VLSD, I've got a spare VLSD unit that I'll be glad to ship to someone in order to make bushings/spacers/whatever to fit a Quaife in its place. If you know of someone that's willing to do the machine work for it, I'd like to talk to them.
(nobody around here wants to do that kind of stuff)
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Old 03-06-2007, 07:33 AM
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This needs to be stickied.

Great posts guys!!!

DF
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Old 03-06-2007, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by AllBlackMax
None of this info really applies to me but what's more amazing than the fact that you guys rebuild your own transmissions is your ages. Rebuilding a tranny at 26 or 27 years old was pretty much out of the question for me.

Reading this thread puts in perspective how much of an enthusiast I am. LOL!
If my 18 yr old cousin can go through basic training, get sent to Iraq as a tank mechanic, and die for his country, I can surely read an FSM and figure out how to put together a transmission.

not knocking anyone, but rebuilding one really isn't that hard. it's just a matter of a few specialized tools that most people don't have sitting around their garage. for the same as the labor charges from one tranny rebuild, you can buy all the specialized tools you need and do it yourself. the FSM spells out step-by-step how to tear it down and reassemble it. the trick is having the mechanical 'ability to be able to tell what's broke and what's not once you get in there. some parts you can measure, some you just have to look at.
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Old 03-06-2007, 11:12 PM
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most will probably disagree with me but i think my 5 speed (01 tranny) feels alot better than the 6 speed . i have a 04 spec V and i dont like the shifter feel at all. maybe its because ive had my max much longer.who knows

here's my ? to you neal . this is what ive been thinking. Iam always gonna stay all motor ,and i have plans for getting up to around 300whp. sooner or later.
What would you do in my shoes? iam happy with the 5 speed feel . but i dont want to be stranded at a track 260 miles away. this was making me lean toward the 6 speed (thinking its gods gift to trannys )because i said if my 5 speed goes i dont have a choice.but now i see this.

sleeper thats the same thing that happen to my 96 trans. the diff pin didnt come out completly,it snaked its way out but then started contacting the surface of the pressure plate and machined the PP. then broke of and bounced around and punched holes in my tranny. this actually happen when i was driving and never heard a thing. i just happened to see the holes in my tranny when i had my hood up checking my oil.
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Old 03-07-2007, 09:07 AM
  #35  
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Very informative, Neal. You continue to impress me with the amount of research with detailed pictures you are willing to post just for the sake of teaching the community.
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:40 PM
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Wow, that's a hell of a post Neal. You're definitely an asset to our community, keep up the good work, and not just for our benefit! This needs to be a sticky without a doubt.
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Old 03-07-2007, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by krismax
most will probably disagree with me but i think my 5 speed (01 tranny) feels alot better than the 6 speed . i have a 04 spec V and i dont like the shifter feel at all. maybe its because ive had my max much longer.who knows

here's my ? to you neal . this is what ive been thinking. Iam always gonna stay all motor ,and i have plans for getting up to around 300whp. sooner or later.
What would you do in my shoes? iam happy with the 5 speed feel . but i dont want to be stranded at a track 260 miles away. this was making me lean toward the 6 speed (thinking its gods gift to trannys )because i said if my 5 speed goes i dont have a choice.but now i see this.

sleeper thats the same thing that happen to my 96 trans. the diff pin didnt come out completly,it snaked its way out but then started contacting the surface of the pressure plate and machined the PP. then broke of and bounced around and punched holes in my tranny. this actually happen when i was driving and never heard a thing. i just happened to see the holes in my tranny when i had my hood up checking my oil.
I agree with you, i was driving my freinds spec v, and i always have a hard time finding 5th, 5th in his sentra is like where 3rd is on the max. Only noticed it with the sentra, though, i still perfer the feeling of my shifter over a lot of cars thought, im probbaly just use to it though.

Awesome info in this thread, ill keep my post to a minimum so i wont clutter anything up.
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Old 03-08-2007, 06:37 AM
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A 5-speed should theoretically be better with boosted engines anyways due to the way they make the torque. I've noticed a lot of guys getting better times with wider gearing gearing when going with a boosted engine. I don't know of the 6-speed's gearing off hand but I'd assume it would be quite a bit more narrow than the 5-speed, depending on the diff. ratio.
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Old 03-08-2007, 07:09 AM
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For an all-motor setup, the A34 6-speed's gearing is ideal.
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Old 03-08-2007, 07:38 AM
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Definitely. If going all motor closer ratios tend to be much better since n/a engines tend to have a narrow power band, at the least compared to a boosted engine they do.
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