mild perfromance turbo build. plans and questions.
11-07-2008, 04:17 PM
#1
mild perfromance turbo build. plans and questions.
i've began gathering parts for a turbo build. the catch is i'm not going for huge hp numbers. the plan is along the lines of a fwd jdm vq30det conversion. i already have a rwd jdm engine out of a gloria and have done the research pertaining to swapping over internals and whatnot. the plan was to put it in my 98 maxima but that got flooded so i'm on the lookout for an i30 (a32 of course). might as well get a head start on the planning/purchasing/building. been talking with kzoosho so some things have been cleared up, just looking for more opinions/advice.
1) bottom end - i know a couple members have swapped the det internals into the fwd de block. not too much to talk about here unless you have something to add.
2) heads - less information here. i would like to use the original heads but the det cams if at all possible. there's some mention of this in old threads but not enough to give me a 100% answer.
3) turbo - i will be using the oem det turbo, which brings us to 4...
4) intake manifold - the only options here are original or mevi. after talking with kzoosho it seems that such a small turbo will drop off at high rpms so mevi wouldn't make sense. remember extreme hp isn't a goal on this one.
5a) engine management - e manage blue vs. jwt reflash. assuming i don't end up going into the raised limiter the only thing i really need to adjust is the fuel map right? i plan on a one time dyno tune and that's it unless something goes wrong. do i need the features of eb or is a reflash good enough (assuming i end up with a reflashable year ecu).
5b) engine managment - if i get information that leads me to believe i will need more adjustability eu is an option.
6) intercooler - small detail early on i know but if any of the i30 guys have insight on what size will allow me to retain the fog lights lmk.
again what i am going for is how the car would come if it had been offered in a turbo version. not trying to squeeze every ounce of power out here. i understand i'm doing a lot to get a little, but if anybody can dig what i'm trying to do and has any insight post away. flamers welcome too (i'll do it anyway).
1) bottom end - i know a couple members have swapped the det internals into the fwd de block. not too much to talk about here unless you have something to add.
2) heads - less information here. i would like to use the original heads but the det cams if at all possible. there's some mention of this in old threads but not enough to give me a 100% answer.
3) turbo - i will be using the oem det turbo, which brings us to 4...
4) intake manifold - the only options here are original or mevi. after talking with kzoosho it seems that such a small turbo will drop off at high rpms so mevi wouldn't make sense. remember extreme hp isn't a goal on this one.
5a) engine management - e manage blue vs. jwt reflash. assuming i don't end up going into the raised limiter the only thing i really need to adjust is the fuel map right? i plan on a one time dyno tune and that's it unless something goes wrong. do i need the features of eb or is a reflash good enough (assuming i end up with a reflashable year ecu).
5b) engine managment - if i get information that leads me to believe i will need more adjustability eu is an option.
6) intercooler - small detail early on i know but if any of the i30 guys have insight on what size will allow me to retain the fog lights lmk.
again what i am going for is how the car would come if it had been offered in a turbo version. not trying to squeeze every ounce of power out here. i understand i'm doing a lot to get a little, but if anybody can dig what i'm trying to do and has any insight post away. flamers welcome too (i'll do it anyway).
11-07-2008, 04:38 PM
#2
What HP range are you actually looking for though? you say "mild" what do you refer by that? mid 200's, low 300's? if what your looking for just some small power like that, then why not stick to a stock vq30? your going to spend ALOT of time and money building a motor to only make 300hp. stock 3.0 can handle a good amount of power, near 400's with no building needed, just good tuning.
11-07-2008, 05:39 PM
#3
i'm ok with spending lots of money to achieve easily reachable n/a numbers. i'm not into numbers and just want to do it to say i did it.
i already have a lot of the parts so obviously the cost isn't an issue.
i already have a lot of the parts so obviously the cost isn't an issue.
11-07-2008, 09:40 PM
#4
n/a numbers? what do you mean. arent you going to boost? You wanna do this build but not make power? dosnt make sense but anyways...
for tuning, i strongly suggest emanage, whether it be blue or ultimate, since money is not an issue go with the ultimate so in the future you can always extend the limiter and have every possible option as well. retard timing, advance, rev limiter, 2step, etc... I wouldnt go with jwt.
For intercooler, you can get something small since your not going for big power. for example a 27x7x2.5 or something in that area. Thats what i have and been successful with it for my low 300hp's.
For intake, anything over the stock usim. mevi flows alot better up top.
for tuning, i strongly suggest emanage, whether it be blue or ultimate, since money is not an issue go with the ultimate so in the future you can always extend the limiter and have every possible option as well. retard timing, advance, rev limiter, 2step, etc... I wouldnt go with jwt.
For intercooler, you can get something small since your not going for big power. for example a 27x7x2.5 or something in that area. Thats what i have and been successful with it for my low 300hp's.
For intake, anything over the stock usim. mevi flows alot better up top.
11-08-2008, 07:44 AM
#5
thanks for the help but you are not understanding what i am wanting out of the setup.
imagine you are in japan and you go buy a y33 gloria. you don't mod it, you just drive it around with the factory vq30det performance. now apply that to an a32. that's what i'm looking for.
the mevi is a good issue but i'm going to need more than "it flows better" to use it. i already have it so here's why it even came to question:
i will be using the oem turbo (t25 i believe). i am not 100% clear on everything yet, as i am still in the process of researching but from what i have gathered so far the smaller the turbo, generally the lower power band. this is backed up by the fact that the det makes it's power at a couple hundred rpms less than the de.
the mevi makes most, if not all, of it's power above the factory redline which would be well out of the turbo's power range. it seems to me that installing an mevi and raising the limiter would be an exercise in futility. correct me if i'm wrong.
with the lack of mevi comes the diminished need for advanced engine management. i am not looking to extend the limiter/advance or retard timing/etc. i want to run oem (det) specs. the reason for engine managment at all is simply to correct the fuel supply. i plan on dyno tuning this car once and never thinking about it again unless something breaks.
---
i understand it is hard for someone that's all about the power to understand why i would do all this for ~100 chp gain but that's what i want to do. i'm just looking for confirmation on my understanding of how things fit together/work rather than opinions on how to make more power.
imagine you are in japan and you go buy a y33 gloria. you don't mod it, you just drive it around with the factory vq30det performance. now apply that to an a32. that's what i'm looking for.
the mevi is a good issue but i'm going to need more than "it flows better" to use it. i already have it so here's why it even came to question:
i will be using the oem turbo (t25 i believe). i am not 100% clear on everything yet, as i am still in the process of researching but from what i have gathered so far the smaller the turbo, generally the lower power band. this is backed up by the fact that the det makes it's power at a couple hundred rpms less than the de.
the mevi makes most, if not all, of it's power above the factory redline which would be well out of the turbo's power range. it seems to me that installing an mevi and raising the limiter would be an exercise in futility. correct me if i'm wrong.
with the lack of mevi comes the diminished need for advanced engine management. i am not looking to extend the limiter/advance or retard timing/etc. i want to run oem (det) specs. the reason for engine managment at all is simply to correct the fuel supply. i plan on dyno tuning this car once and never thinking about it again unless something breaks.
---
i understand it is hard for someone that's all about the power to understand why i would do all this for ~100 chp gain but that's what i want to do. i'm just looking for confirmation on my understanding of how things fit together/work rather than opinions on how to make more power.
11-08-2008, 09:44 AM
#6
For the power you are looking for it seems that you just want a realiable daily driver turbo car. That's what I have (knock on wood). These are my recommendations if you will not be tracking the car. I would have gone with the stock motor and no upgrades to begin with in that department. I would go with an 00vi if you want to do an intake upgrade, other than that you just do the walbro fuel pump and an afpr. For engine management you could go with jwt if you feel you just want to set it and forget it, if you want to mess around from time to time get an emanage blue with the support tool, injector, and ignition harnesses. I would probably go with a cookie cutter t3/t4 turbo insteadof the t25 for the rpm range the car will usually operate at, just double check the compressor maps for your engine range. You probably know about the other stuff like a wideband and maybe egt gauge. Click the vq30det link in my sig to see my set up. I didn't want big power either, just something reliable to have fun with every once in a while.
11-08-2008, 10:11 AM
#7
cool, sounds like you understand exactly what i am looking for as far as performance (or lack there of 
).
i consider the oem det parts the same as a stock motor. millions of cars equipped with this engine (det, rwd version of course) have been sold and they drive around daily. i figure if nissan spends millions of dollars developing engines that's good enough for me. what i want to do is recreate a vq30det in a fwd vehicle with an oem appearance/performance. the turbo may or may not be t25, whatever stock is that's what i'm using.
i looked into the 00vi when i was planning to go all motor, and honestly it's just not for me. anything where parts have to be modified/bypassed (as far as fitment/function respectively) can pretty much be tossed out the window. the choices are mevi, and if mevi does not work in the projected powerband; stock. having the stock im extrude honed for a little bit better flow is a possibility.
we're definitely on the same page as far as management, assuming my assessment of using the mevi on my particular application (no bueno) is correct.
i already have a lc1 wbo2 but was contemplating not using it. for a "set it and forget it" setup do you feel it's really necessary? i considered it for monitoring purposes but i don't know... definitely open to evidence in either direction here. i will probably do a boost gauge for monitoring purposes.
anybody got info on the det vs. de cams?
).i consider the oem det parts the same as a stock motor. millions of cars equipped with this engine (det, rwd version of course) have been sold and they drive around daily. i figure if nissan spends millions of dollars developing engines that's good enough for me. what i want to do is recreate a vq30det in a fwd vehicle with an oem appearance/performance. the turbo may or may not be t25, whatever stock is that's what i'm using.
i looked into the 00vi when i was planning to go all motor, and honestly it's just not for me. anything where parts have to be modified/bypassed (as far as fitment/function respectively) can pretty much be tossed out the window. the choices are mevi, and if mevi does not work in the projected powerband; stock. having the stock im extrude honed for a little bit better flow is a possibility.
we're definitely on the same page as far as management, assuming my assessment of using the mevi on my particular application (no bueno) is correct.
i already have a lc1 wbo2 but was contemplating not using it. for a "set it and forget it" setup do you feel it's really necessary? i considered it for monitoring purposes but i don't know... definitely open to evidence in either direction here. i will probably do a boost gauge for monitoring purposes.
anybody got info on the det vs. de cams?
11-08-2008, 11:09 AM
#8
For the power you are looking for it seems that you just want a realiable daily driver turbo car. That's what I have (knock on wood). These are my recommendations if you will not be tracking the car. I would have gone with the stock motor and no upgrades to begin with in that department. I would go with an 00vi if you want to do an intake upgrade, other than that you just do the walbro fuel pump and an afpr. For engine management you could go with jwt if you feel you just want to set it and forget it, if you want to mess around from time to time get an emanage blue with the support tool, injector, and ignition harnesses. I would probably go with a cookie cutter t3/t4 turbo insteadof the t25 for the rpm range the car will usually operate at, just double check the compressor maps for your engine range. You probably know about the other stuff like a wideband and maybe egt gauge. Click the vq30det link in my sig to see my set up. I didn't want big power either, just something reliable to have fun with every once in a while.
I second everything he said. My car has been turbo'd for 4 years with no issues until recently. My motor has 280,000 miles and it let go after 4 years of running 12psi and higher. So the stock internals are fine... Just fab the pipping and enjoy.
Ditch the T25..
I'm upgrading another VQ30DE with Arp studs (you can use Hr's also), cometic head gasket, 3.5L cams, VQ35HR valve springs double shimmed, Jwt Ecu, 370cc injectors, Z32 Maf, and this
http://forums.nycmaximas.org/showthread.php?t=38944
11-08-2008, 11:18 AM
#9
If your thinking about dyno tuning the car, then wideband might not be really necessary. How does the DET intake manifold look like, is it the same as the DE? In your case I say you stick to the stock intake manifold (DE if thats what u currenlty have), for your goals you dont really need the power up top. Also, since you just wanna set it and forget it, then I guess jwt ecu would be ur best bet, i dont have experience with them as far as how would they go about tuning for your engine. or you can still get the emanage, tune, and just have it hidden somewhere (which is cheaper although money is not an issue for u).
I also vote to ditch the T25, those turbos fit better on a lawn mower
I also vote to ditch the T25, those turbos fit better on a lawn mower
11-08-2008, 11:24 AM
#10
i will be using the oem turbo (whatever it is)... not up for debate.
i'm also using as many of the det parts as possible. the entire bottom and, exhaust manifolds, turbo, and hopefully the cams (if they are indeed different). the only non-nissan parts involved will be the fmic and electronics.
i understand you guys are trying to help with suggestions, but please keep my goals in mind. the whole, and only, purpose of this project is to take as much as i can from a rwd vq30det engine and apply it to a vq30de engine. no bigger turbos, super tuning, or anything... just a fwd vq30det conversion.
*edit - this was not in response to your post streetzlegend, you got in while i was typing.
i'm also using as many of the det parts as possible. the entire bottom and, exhaust manifolds, turbo, and hopefully the cams (if they are indeed different). the only non-nissan parts involved will be the fmic and electronics.
i understand you guys are trying to help with suggestions, but please keep my goals in mind. the whole, and only, purpose of this project is to take as much as i can from a rwd vq30det engine and apply it to a vq30de engine. no bigger turbos, super tuning, or anything... just a fwd vq30det conversion.
*edit - this was not in response to your post streetzlegend, you got in while i was typing.
11-08-2008, 11:38 AM
#11
If your thinking about dyno tuning the car, then wideband might not be really necessary. How does the DET intake manifold look like, is it the same as the DE? In your case I say you stick to the stock intake manifold (DE if thats what u currenlty have), for your goals you dont really need the power up top. Also, since you just wanna set it and forget it, then I guess jwt ecu would be ur best bet, i dont have experience with them as far as how would they go about tuning for your engine. or you can still get the emanage, tune, and just have it hidden somewhere (which is cheaper although money is not an issue for u).
I also vote to ditch the T25, those turbos fit better on a lawn mower
I also vote to ditch the T25, those turbos fit better on a lawn mower
i believe there's a clearance issue with these in a maxima. been a while since i read the post that discussed it so it's a little fuzzy.
i think the deciding factor between jwt and eb will be what year i30 i end up buying. the jwt reflash sounds like the ideal solution and i'm guessing they could get all the oem det information.
11-09-2008, 03:16 AM
#12
the det manifold is different since it is for a longitudinal mounted rwd car.
i believe there's a clearance issue with these in a maxima. been a while since i read the post that discussed it so it's a little fuzzy.
i think the deciding factor between jwt and eb will be what year i30 i end up buying. the jwt reflash sounds like the ideal solution and i'm guessing they could get all the oem det information.
i believe there's a clearance issue with these in a maxima. been a while since i read the post that discussed it so it's a little fuzzy.
i think the deciding factor between jwt and eb will be what year i30 i end up buying. the jwt reflash sounds like the ideal solution and i'm guessing they could get all the oem det information.
11-09-2008, 12:18 PM
#13
Id keep the MEVI. Reason being, if the T25 falls on its face top end, the USIM combined with the T25 is going to give you some terrible top end power..or lack there of. The MEVI shines past 5000rpm, where the T25 will fall pretty much flat on its face, so it will somewhat level it out. In all honesty though, even though you've decided your using the stock turbo, a reasonably sized t3/t4 would give you pretty much the same spool but still keep some top end power.
Good luck on the build!
Good luck on the build!
11-09-2008, 02:18 PM
#14
Id keep the MEVI. Reason being, if the T25 falls on its face top end, the USIM combined with the T25 is going to give you some terrible top end power..or lack there of. The MEVI shines past 5000rpm, where the T25 will fall pretty much flat on its face, so it will somewhat level it out.
11-10-2008, 12:14 AM
#18
N00blargh
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 110
Hey - I'll be doing pretty much the same thing in a month or two. My engine is also coming from a Y33 Gloria.
I'm still considering using the full RWD engine and just making some custom mounts. Either that or I may just use my stock engine (with turbo manifolds) and run a high compression / low (stock) boost. I've heard that the turbo pistons are ever so slightly larger diameter than the N/A ones so you'd have to bore out your FWD block if you use them.
I'm definitely planning on using the Y33 ecu though. As for intercoolers I'm thinking about having a water->air intercooler or maybe just water injection. I don't really fancy running a lot of pipe work that is going to sap my boost.
I found some pictures which may be helpful:
http://www.vqpower.com/v2/news.php?readmore=192
I noticed that they are using the stock manifold - I wonder if they had to trim the bonnet. They've definitely done some strange water pipe rerouting.
I'm still considering using the full RWD engine and just making some custom mounts. Either that or I may just use my stock engine (with turbo manifolds) and run a high compression / low (stock) boost. I've heard that the turbo pistons are ever so slightly larger diameter than the N/A ones so you'd have to bore out your FWD block if you use them.
I'm definitely planning on using the Y33 ecu though. As for intercoolers I'm thinking about having a water->air intercooler or maybe just water injection. I don't really fancy running a lot of pipe work that is going to sap my boost.
I found some pictures which may be helpful:
http://www.vqpower.com/v2/news.php?readmore=192
I noticed that they are using the stock manifold - I wonder if they had to trim the bonnet. They've definitely done some strange water pipe rerouting.
11-10-2008, 06:14 AM
#19
Hey - I'll be doing pretty much the same thing in a month or two. My engine is also coming from a Y33 Gloria.
I'm still considering using the full RWD engine and just making some custom mounts. Either that or I may just use my stock engine (with turbo manifolds) and run a high compression / low (stock) boost. I've heard that the turbo pistons are ever so slightly larger diameter than the N/A ones so you'd have to bore out your FWD block if you use them.
I'm definitely planning on using the Y33 ecu though. As for intercoolers I'm thinking about having a water->air intercooler or maybe just water injection. I don't really fancy running a lot of pipe work that is going to sap my boost.
I found some pictures which may be helpful:
http://www.vqpower.com/v2/news.php?readmore=192
I noticed that they are using the stock manifold - I wonder if they had to trim the bonnet. They've definitely done some strange water pipe rerouting.
I'm still considering using the full RWD engine and just making some custom mounts. Either that or I may just use my stock engine (with turbo manifolds) and run a high compression / low (stock) boost. I've heard that the turbo pistons are ever so slightly larger diameter than the N/A ones so you'd have to bore out your FWD block if you use them.
I'm definitely planning on using the Y33 ecu though. As for intercoolers I'm thinking about having a water->air intercooler or maybe just water injection. I don't really fancy running a lot of pipe work that is going to sap my boost.
I found some pictures which may be helpful:
http://www.vqpower.com/v2/news.php?readmore=192
I noticed that they are using the stock manifold - I wonder if they had to trim the bonnet. They've definitely done some strange water pipe rerouting.
i believe the car pictured was a full rwd det swap. i'm looking for something a lot cleaner.
i have considered the idea of using the jdm ecu as well but it seems like more trouble than having the stock one re-flashed or piggy-backed.
good luck on your build.
11-10-2008, 08:10 AM
#20
I dont know about killing the turbo itself, but that turbo will be way out of its efficiency range..so it will just blow hot air into the motor at high revs..
11-10-2008, 11:38 AM
#21
N00blargh
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 110
11-10-2008, 11:45 AM
#22
hmmm... i guess i'll cross that bridge when i get there. in the couple threads were ppl have done the internal swap on the .org it has never come up. either way, no biggie.
11-15-2008, 02:35 PM
#24
N00blargh
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 110
What are you plans for fuel? Do you reckon the stock pump will be able to handle the stock boost (7 psi i think?). Walbro pumps aren't that cheap over here - so I might consider looking at a fuel pump from a 300zx or supra.
Another issue that we'll encounter is running the down pipe. Unfortunately the turbo output faces the wrong way (e.g. not towards the exhaust tunnel under the engine). I don't really want to run underneath the gearbox incase I hit a bump/dip.
Another issue that we'll encounter is running the down pipe. Unfortunately the turbo output faces the wrong way (e.g. not towards the exhaust tunnel under the engine). I don't really want to run underneath the gearbox incase I hit a bump/dip.
12-02-2008, 08:34 AM
#27
12-02-2008, 09:11 AM
#28
What are you plans for fuel? Do you reckon the stock pump will be able to handle the stock boost (7 psi i think?). Walbro pumps aren't that cheap over here - so I might consider looking at a fuel pump from a 300zx or supra.
Another issue that we'll encounter is running the down pipe. Unfortunately the turbo output faces the wrong way (e.g. not towards the exhaust tunnel under the engine). I don't really want to run underneath the gearbox incase I hit a bump/dip.
Another issue that we'll encounter is running the down pipe. Unfortunately the turbo output faces the wrong way (e.g. not towards the exhaust tunnel under the engine). I don't really want to run underneath the gearbox incase I hit a bump/dip.
the piping; i have some ideas but really won't know anything for sure until i drop the engine in a car.
been waiting on a compressor to show up, then i'm going to send some pieces out. no real plans for assembly as of now. haven't even found a car to drop the engine in yet.
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