I'll take the 5-speed tranny off your hands if you want my auto

Sigh, this thread makes me feel no better about owning an auto

 

With a high stall converter from the right company the efficiency is much higher than the stocker and when you are running in the 12's I don't think a 5 speed or 6 speed can beat it if you have the correct gear ratio. Plus its much more consistent and much easier on the drive train.

The only area thats problematic is the start and even with a 3400 stall converter it can't beat a manual off the line that is dumping at over 6k. However give me a 50 HP shot of spray and I will challenge any manual to a 60' dual regardless HP.

 

Jim you know we could debate this all day.

While it's true the faster the car goes the more the auto shifts make a difference, I don't think 12's is quite fast enough to cancel the 60' difference with a good manual driver. The 2 tenths gained off the line should more than make up the shifting difference. If you were to put a 5-spd in your car and keep everything else the same I think you'd run faster than you are currently. Plus it's still more efficient and lighter.

And if you use a 50hp shot of spray it's not apples to apples then, otherwise give the manual the same 50hp shot and then its 60ft will be even better assuming traction is not a factor for either car.

Bottom line for me is the driving fun/feel factor. If I had a dedicated track car that was sub-12 seconds I'd consider an auto, but for a street car that's still driven often I just can't give up the feel and fun factor of driving a manual. Just my preference of course. I know this age old debate will continue forever as long as there are cars... lol

 

That’s the thing add a 50 shot onto Jim's car and it will pull low 1.7's consistently every pass. Add a 50 shot to say your setup when you are consistently dumping at high rpms and you go up in smoke. There is a fine line you can walk with launching a manual fwd car no matter what the power is and actually be consistent. I will tell you that you could add a 50+ shot on top of your setup where you pulled the 1.76 and not beat it 2 times out of 10 passes. Jim however has pulled consistent 1.7’s even with his old 2k2 Auto spraying out of the hole. Auto plus high stall and spray will not be beat at the track with the right tire setup no matter what the manual setup is but that’s been proven over and over again with every kind of car making decent power.

 

I have to repsectfully disagree on the consistency issue for the power levels/times we are talking about. Like I said above, I agree when the cars get faster but for mid-high 12's to low 13's I think it's repeatable with a manual. Just because people have had problems in the past is no deterrent to me, and to my knowledge there are FWD Hondas running 10's and 11's on fat slicks with decent consistency and lower 60fts than 1.7's. And certainly tons of RWD manuals running consistently mid-high 12's. My opinion is that if you have the tranny, clutch, suspension, and tires to handle the launch and can drive it's not overly difficult to be pretty consistent to within a couple hundredths on ET. Is a FWD auto really going to be more consistent than that? And don't forget about the consistency introduced by having a 2-step limiter. All those items I just mentioned are key though.

Give me an engine with 40-50 hp more and I'm pretty confident I would beat the mid-high 1.7's a lot more than 2 times out of 10 if those things I mentioned above were addressed properly (and for the same track conditions obviously). I have pulled quite a few 1.77, 1.78's, 1.79's across several track days not just one day and run the same ET to within 2-4 hundredths. 1.7's are the norm for me now, nevermind with 50hp more. And that's even while playing around and adjusting the launch technique to boot. If the car is set up well and nothing breaks it's not hard to be reasonably consistent on slicks.

I know many people have had a hard time being consistent on a manual but very likely one of the items on the list I mentioned was lacking or not adequately addressed. I'm not trying to make myself out to be some great driver or something, I just think that most people do not adequately address all those things I mentioned. But hey, it's just my opinion, whether right or wrong. I will do my best to prove it when I have a higher powered VQ35 in there.. hopefully next year.

 

Another question, plz. When you finish a pass, do you keep on rolling in third gear until you have a chance to shut off the car and switch out of manual-shift mode?

I could see this working with your high-stall TC, but I'm curious about how you handle the car after the trap. Rolling to the timing-slip shack in third and shutting off there could work, I guess...

Also, do you think scrapping the stock exhaust manifolds for shorty headers and my 3" Warpspeed exhaust system would give me some extra top end? Or are the Hotshots the best answer, and best horsepower for the buck?

 

Ohh no doubt if the cars are only running mid-high 12's NA a manual Maxima will dominate an Auto. Like Jim said though add a 50 shot to his current setup and it will 1.7 60' all day while adding it to a manual Maxima will cause issues such as finding a new rpm to launch at bc the driveline shock will not take as hard of a lauch. I would be willing to bet you any amount that you don't beat your 1.76 60' 2 times out of 10 if you sprayed a 50 shot on top of it.

FWD hondas also 60' in the 1.6's consistantly but thats a whole different car, drivetrain, weight transfer, and a lot more meat on the sidewalls with huge offsets.


I'd be willing to take that bet

I guess the main picture here is more power added to the Maxima doesn't equal quicker 60's than you have accomplished. Mardigras is a prime example I don't think hes posted a 60' better than yours but maybe once or twice in dozens of passes and thats on a meaty slick with a decent suspension and low car weight and gobs of power.

A great example to look at as far as power levels vs 60's go is in the Supra world. There are 450whp TT Auto Supras posting consistant 1.4-1.5 60's every pass which the 6 speeds at any power level 450-1400rwhp might be lucky to get a 1.5. This is kind of where Im trying to take this discussion Jime has already proven an Auto can 1.7 60' consistant, you however are about at the limits a 5 speed Maxima can 60' before the driveline shock starts slowing it down by spinning or bogging.

 

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. Although high stalled autos dominate the faster sections of drag racing (i.e when you start running 11's and faster, the manuals are rarer and rarer), that is mostly due to the manual being incredibly hard on the stuff once you start making big power. Ridiculously heavy clutches, snapping axles, etc.

But light cars don't really have that problem (until a certain point). The lighter the car, the faster it can go with a manual without running into the 500 or 600 HP "wall" that stick cars face at some point.

A lightweight stick car that doesn't break, has extremely aggressive gearing, big, fat slicks and dumps the clutch at 5, 6 or 7 grand is pretty damn hard to beat. And like you said there isn't the inconvenience of the high converter on the street. I know someone with a stalled caprice running 12's and streetability is iffy because it's like driving a snowmobile in normal driving.

I will give you that though; a computer shifts faster than a human being (I don't care how fast some people think they shift), and autos are certainly more consistant.

The problem with the maxima's auto (and most autos) is that is isn't geared optimally to launch or race. Ideally you'd have a 5 or 6 speed auto with VERY agressive gearing. For the auto to be better, it would need to be geared equal or better than the comparable stick car. But the maxima 4-speed gearing is too wide and not agressive enough to fully take advantage of having an auto shift that quick.

And for having done 250 runs with the 5-speed last year, on days when my track actually hooks, consistency would be surprisingly good. There seemed to be about .01 to .02 or so between my runs depending on how I shift and where I shift (for an equal 60-foot). It's harder to bracket race with a manual, but it's not impossible and it can be far more consistant that some people might think.

Stick cars just need to be over-tired because they shock the drivetrain a lot more, especially us just asking for it with 6-puck clutches (i.e if you think you need 24.5-inch slicks, you're buying 26's).

 

With all this said, give me a manual 10/10 times. The advantages of an auto are confined to such a small part of the driving and modding experience that i could never live with one. Most of us don't live and die by the 1/4 mile.

 

But as much as i dislike autos the NA max king at this point is a auto, and until a manuel beats him he has a very good case for auto being a good drag choice

 

When at the track I leave it in manual-shift mode all the time just to avoid confusion. After the trap I just leave it slow down in 3rd and then shift to 2nd at the shack and then back to 3rd for the ride back to the pits. Doesn't matter whether you have a hi-stall converter or not I would do the same thing.

I am still a Hotshot fan, they gave me 11 mph and 1 full second in the 1/4 on my 2k2, best bang for the buck going.

 

OK - that makes sense.. That's simple to live with.

As a supplement to the manual-shift mode, what would you think of an automatic shift sequencer for the transmission, using a MSD RPM switch to force the 1-2 shift and 2-3 shift at the preset RPMs of the MSD? With spray, I want the extended-RPM shifting, but I don't want to risk bouncing off the stock rev-limiter at 6650 RPMs and frying another motor. I've done lots of relay-logic stuff, and use some in my MSD/relay MEVI controller, which is 100% reliable and easily programmable. It's no great trick to use three relays to start with A+B solenoids on, then at the MSD trigger point, open A solenoid for second-gear, then when the MSD sees the preset RPM again, open A and B solenoids for third gear. A reset switch can then drop everything back into first gear for the next round. This is kinda what you originally wanted to do, I think. ???


I thought the Hotshots were the best way to go, but I'm cheap, so I appreciate the confirmation. That's a LOT of performance increase!

 

Great idea for the shifts, I do have a digital MSD or I could use the EU which is what I was thinking of trying next. I have a basket full of relays and they are very useful for a multitude of things. I just finished moving my switch to the steering wheel today so I don't have to take my hand off the wheel when shifting. I just removed the cruise control switch assmbly and put the other switch in its place. I use a 4 wheel line loc to launch so I release it with my left and and then I was using my right hand to shift so not much time to switch hands and this will make it much easier but having it done with the MSD or EU through relays would be even better.

 

My preliminary design needs three 3PDT 12-volt relays, four diodes, two resistors, two capacitors, and one NC Reset-everything switch. This is in addition to the DPDT switch for Manual Mode.

The MSD can give a solid ground when preset PRM is reached (perhaps the EU can also do this), which can pulse the first relay each time this happens. This relay can charge a capacitor through a resistor, and when picked, can pull in the second relay through a steering diode. Once picked and latched through another diode, the second relay can charge another capacitor through another resistor, which is switched through a set of contacts on the first relay. The next time the MSD reaches preset RPM, the first relay is again pulsed, and the third relay is picked by another steering diode from the second capacitor and latched through its' own contacts and another diode. Pushing the Reset switch clears everything, and reverts to First-gear settings.

The two solenoids are connected through unused contacts on relays #2 (solenoid A) and relay #3 (solenoid B). When started, both solenoids are energized. This is first gear.

When the MSD triggers the first time, relay #2 is picked and latched, opening solenoid A. This is second gear.

When the MSD is triggered by preset RPM again, relay #3 is picked and latched, opening solenoid B. This is third gear. Reset drops all relays back to their initial state.

I'm going to prototype this theory and try to make something work. I expect to have to tweak values, but I think the basic theory is workable. I use somthing similar to forward-pulse and reverse-pulse the door-lock solenoid controlling my MEVI.

With what you've already figured out about the automatic, I really want this to work. Even using a stock ecu, if I can shift at 6500 instead of 6000, I bet the 2nd-gear pull to red-line is worth the work... And then there are the hotshots... You know, 12s just might BE possible!

 

Why can't we push the envelope with tires/wheels a little more? Just because no one has yet really doesn't mean we shouldn't try it. AFAIK Everbody's been running the same 2 or 3 rim and slick sizes for years. In fact that's what Mardi's doing now, he'll have 26" slicks on 10" Welds that will stick out pretty good. And there are ways to address the weight transfer and drivetrain.

Oh ye of little faith. You're on. I'm not afraid to be proven wrong, and if I am so be it but you should be prepared to be proven wrong also. When I do the VQ35 it'll be at least 50hp higher than my little ol' 3L and we'll see what kind of sixty foots I can run after I get everything set up the way I want it.

I hear what you're saying, and yes Jime has proven an auto can 1.7 consistently, but I'm saying so can a manual all things being equal on the track prep etc. The day I discovered how to run 1.7's, the track prep was not too bad (it's never great at the track I've been using lately), and from that first run on, I never went higher than 1.78 the remainder of the day (over 4 or 5 runs in a row IIRC). That's not too bad for consistency if you ask me.

However I'm not so sure we've reached the 60ft limits for a manual Max. I am starting to believe our cars are capable of 1.6's or VERY low 1.7's. Mardi has all kinds of power and I certainly respect what he's done, but I'm not convinced he's really used the full potential of his car for 60fts (or have I yet for that matter). For instance, I don't recall seeing him post anything about hard core suspension mods like solid/near solid rear ends and AFAIK, he was always running 24.5x8.5 slicks on a 7" rim, in fact the exact same tire/wheel I have now. And he never had a 2-step like I do. I expect to see better 60's out of him this year with a 26x10 wheel/slick combo. I believe it's possible.

 

Except I don't think that's really a strong or fair case. There are SOOOO many things that go into 1/4 mi racing that you can't say he's fastest and tie it predominantly to being auto. IMO him being fastest has much less to do with being auto than it does his other mods and the all-important power to weight ratio.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not knocking him or what he's done in any way. His accomplishments are certainly impressive, and he's a good guy.

 

I hear ya, its nice to finally have somehow have a civil discussion reguarding this topic, and Jim sorry to clutter your thread. I am also curious to see how the larger rim/slick combo works for Matt as 1.6's might be possible but it will be tough. If someone starts getting hardcore with solid rears, extreme offsets on slicks etc etc, then I don't see why someone couldn't 1.6 60' with the right power and weight. Mainly I was basing my little arguement if you call it that off current up to date equipment. Cool deal and good luck on your quest with your car.

 

Another one of my timeslips from Sat. I have managed to get my #48 as my permanent number again this year.

Check out the 60' time.

 

oops

 

Thats what I said when he handed it to me. Thats why I don't believe just one timeslip. Obviously a computer error.

 

Congrats Jim..keep it up!!!

 

Yeah 1.59 is getting out of the hole hard enough to lift the fronts in a RWD car. 1.95 makes alot more sense

 

juice, excuse the OT question, but what was your experience when installing the Hotshot headers? Were they a good fit? Could you feel any performance improvements? I really want to do these, but it's a lot of bucks.....

Thanks.

 

Hotshots aren't that hard to install, just put everything together loose then tighten it all down. This is the most HP increase you can get out of one performance item except for FI. 1 full second in the 1/4 and 11 MPH for me.

 

I'll go half on the headers with you we can switch every month.

 

If this is in the thread already sorry but is this time with max IM or 350z IM and if its not with 350z then whats the prob with it?

 

^^ I think the ZIM would work best with the Z VTC maps. Without it I don't think it can run at its published 105% VE.

 

It was with his Maxima IM.

Nismo is that shot from NFSMW?

 

Yessir

 

too bad its an IS300 and not a maxima.

 

GOOD OBSERVATION