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Basic Info How to Turbo Any Car Properly (NO BS!)

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Old 11-06-2002 | 09:59 AM
  #41  
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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 09:45:32 -0800 (PST)
From: unSTABLE-HYBRIDS <unstable_hybrids@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: jstonebraker@unstable-hybrids.com
Subject: Re: rb25det
To: Leon Apana <???@earthlink.net>

You are correct, it is the first one, but we usually put the BOV before the
intercooler that way we are not venting 'cooled' air, only the heated air.
That keeps the intercooler nice and efficient.
If you have any other questions, feel free to let us know.

By the way, we will be sending your tag within the next week.

Thanks,
Jake

--- Leon Apana <????@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Hi Jake,
> Can you ask Jason a question for me?
> How is a blow through MAF set up?
> 1)Is it air filter--turbo--Intercooler--Blow off valve- MAF-- throttle body
> or
> 2)air filter--turbo--Intercooler--MAF--Blow off valve--throttle body
> Thanks.

Scroll down this page http://www.unstable-hybrids.com/Projects.htm
Look at the location of the maf.
Old 11-06-2002 | 10:32 AM
  #42  
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yeah and thats why I'm confused...some say recircs are best for MAF vehicles...JWT told this to Max O/D for his setup. but I guess "blow through MAF" is fine as long as the air is cooled right?? I think Czar's setup was "blow thorugh MAF"...anyone know??

Originally posted by jim90gxe
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 09:45:32 -0800 (PST)
From: unSTABLE-HYBRIDS <unstable_hybrids@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: jstonebraker@unstable-hybrids.com
Subject: Re: rb25det
To: Leon Apana <???@earthlink.net>

You are correct, it is the first one, but we usually put the BOV before the
intercooler that way we are not venting 'cooled' air, only the heated air.
That keeps the intercooler nice and efficient.
If you have any other questions, feel free to let us know.

By the way, we will be sending your tag within the next week.

Thanks,
Jake

--- Leon Apana <????@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Hi Jake,
> Can you ask Jason a question for me?
> How is a blow through MAF set up?
> 1)Is it air filter--turbo--Intercooler--Blow off valve- MAF-- throttle body
> or
> 2)air filter--turbo--Intercooler--MAF--Blow off valve--throttle body
> Thanks.

Scroll down this page http://www.unstable-hybrids.com/Projects.htm
Look at the location of the maf.
Old 11-06-2002 | 10:45 AM
  #43  
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Originally posted by DA-MAX
yeah and thats why I'm confused...some say recircs are best for MAF vehicles...JWT told this to Max O/D for his setup. but I guess "blow through MAF" is fine as long as the air is cooled right?? I think Czar's setup was "blow thorugh MAF"...anyone know??

If the maf is before the valve then you will need a recirc valve. If the maf is after the valve then you can use a BOV.

Old 11-06-2002 | 11:00 AM
  #44  
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Sounds logical. DaMax

Originally posted by jim90gxe

If the maf is before the valve then you will need a recirc valve. If the maf is after the valve then you can use a BOV.

Old 11-06-2002 | 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by Jeff92se
Sounds logical. DaMax
hehehe...after all that back and forth, that pretty much sums it up!
Old 11-06-2002 | 02:01 PM
  #46  
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Originally posted by jim90gxe


If the maf is before the valve then you will need a recirc valve. If the maf is after the valve then you can use a BOV.

In theory yes..in reality no. I ran 12psi on my vg30 in an 86 300zx. I used a modded pov, as a bov. It worked well. My boost guage would slam to 0, then back to 12 as fast as I could shift gears. No lag at all!!

here's a link to a pic of it.

www.mywebpages.comcast.net/engloid/bov1.jpg
Old 11-06-2002 | 02:18 PM
  #47  
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think about it this way... if you place the BOV after the MAF, the engine will think there's MORE air in the engine than there really is when the BOV does its thing. thus you'll run rich.

This is the exact opposite of a vacuum leak after the MAF on an NA car. on an NA car, air leaks in the system cause more air to come in and the car runs lean. on a pressurized system, the air goes OUT, so there's less air/more fuel to burn.. so it runs rich. (thus you see flames on many high boost cars when they shift).

make sense?

And there's nothing wrong with putting the BOV in either place really. the only time the BOV is working is right when you left off the gas, and it doesn't really matter WHAT is going through the engine right at that point.
Old 11-06-2002 | 02:36 PM
  #48  
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Originally posted by Matt93SE
think about it this way... if you place the BOV after the MAF, the engine will think there's MORE air in the engine than there really is when the BOV does its thing. thus you'll run rich.

This is the exact opposite of a vacuum leak after the MAF on an NA car. on an NA car, air leaks in the system cause more air to come in and the car runs lean. on a pressurized system, the air goes OUT, so there's less air/more fuel to burn.. so it runs rich. (thus you see flames on many high boost cars when they shift).

make sense?

And there's nothing wrong with putting the BOV in either place really. the only time the BOV is working is right when you left off the gas, and it doesn't really matter WHAT is going through the engine right at that point.
That's exactly correct...for some cars...including these. I have heard that Eclipses and some others will run so rich during shifting that they bog down when you hit the throttle in the next gear, as it's not able to burn all the excess gas.
Old 11-06-2002 | 09:26 PM
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Nah.. it'll blow all of that old stuff out in a couple revolutions of the engine. takes (literally) a split second. If you're turning at 3000 RPM, which is about right for just finishing a shift, the engine is turning 50 times per second. that means it does a complete combustion cycle 25 times per second. think of how long it will take to blow all of the richened air out of the intake manifold? that's right.. about 0.1 sec.
Bog? I don't think so.
Old 11-06-2002 | 09:56 PM
  #50  
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ah just get some nology hot wires with their upgraded ignition system. that will toast any gas in there.
Old 11-06-2002 | 10:54 PM
  #51  
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Originally posted by mtcookson
ah just get some nology hot wires with their upgraded ignition system. that will toast any gas in there.
no one cares... Nology suxors anyways :P
Old 11-07-2002 | 05:30 AM
  #52  
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Originally posted by mykizism


no one cares... Nology suxors anyways :P
Do they? I actually know the guy that developed those. My dad went to HS with him. He is now working on a revolutionary electric vehicle..check it out at www.tilleyfoundation.com Glad to ENGLOID aboard..thanks for stopping in.
Old 11-07-2002 | 07:16 AM
  #53  
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There are three ways to fix the issue of stalling after the BOV blows off:

1. Set your idle really high.
2. Use a recirculation fitting on the BOV.
3. electronically using S-AFC.

I am still on stock injectors at 11 psi of boost. A combination of AFC, FMU and high pressure fuel pump (at least the last two are a must if you plan on doing this). It would definitely be better to get 370 cc injectors. I don't think an ECU is necessary though.

I have everything on your list except for the 370 cc injectors and engine rebuild. What do you consider as high boost?

Originally posted by DA-MAX


on the Maxima setup, the BOV doesn't go before the MAF....on all of the Max setups so far it goes....

FILTER-->MAF-->TURBO--(**BOV**)-->TB ....see what I mean??

I used to think "blow thorugh MAF" too, but now that I've seen these new setups on the 4th gens and on Max O/Ds 3rd gen, I'm leaning towards the above setup....

edit: and I think I also remember Nigel mentioning some stalling when he first began running the setup with an open atmosphere BOV, not sure how he solved it...
Old 11-07-2002 | 07:27 AM
  #54  
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Originally posted by turbo97SE
There are three ways to fix the issue of stalling after the BOV blows off:

1. Set your idle really high.
2. Use a recirculation fitting on the BOV.
3. electronically using S-AFC.

I am still on stock injectors at 11 psi of boost. A combination of AFC, FMU and high pressure fuel pump (at least the last two are a must if you plan on doing this). It would definitely be better to get 370 cc injectors. I don't think an ECU is necessary though.

I have everything on your list except for the 370 cc injectors and engine rebuild. What do you consider as high boost?
Wouldn't it run rich on 370cc injectors with the stock ECU..then you have a dog. I'd go wiht an addtional injector setup..SDS's is pretty nice and allows you to keep the stock fuel system complemented by 2 or 4 440cc injectors. I like this idea. By the way, your ride is SO DOPE. I congratulate you Player
Old 11-07-2002 | 07:59 AM
  #55  
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Originally posted by male


Wouldn't it run rich on 370cc injectors with the stock ECU..then you have a dog. I'd go wiht an addtional injector setup..SDS's is pretty nice and allows you to keep the stock fuel system complemented by 2 or 4 440cc injectors. I like this idea. By the way, your ride is SO DOPE. I congratulate you Player
I should make it very clear that you should use an S-AFC or other fuel computer for tunability.
Old 11-07-2002 | 08:11 AM
  #56  
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Originally posted by turbo97SE


I should make it very clear that you should use an S-AFC or other fuel computer for tunability.
Oh, I see, so the fuel computer provides the injectors with the appropriate pulse width..goes in line between the injectors and ECU right..makes sense. I'm not too familiar with them. Are they reliable and less expensive than geting JWT to retune the ECU?
Old 11-07-2002 | 09:44 AM
  #57  
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as far as I know the AFC runs off the MAF signals and adjusts fuel curve from there...its not inline with the injector wire at all. I think the HKS F-Con is what controls actual injector pulse.

Originally posted by male
Oh, I see, so the fuel computer provides the injectors with the appropriate pulse width..goes in line between the injectors and ECU right..
Old 11-07-2002 | 10:21 AM
  #58  
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Originally posted by DA-MAX
as far as I know the AFC runs off the MAF signals and adjusts fuel curve from there...its not inline with the injector wire at all. I think the HKS F-Con is what controls actual injector pulse.

But how does the AFC adjuct the fuel curve..a pressure regulator? It TAKES a signal from the AFM, but where does it SEND it's signal? If it has no connection to the injectors, this is all I can think of.
Old 11-07-2002 | 10:51 AM
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I think signal from MAF goes to AFC and then the "modified" signal goes to ECU...the ECU takes it from there.

Originally posted by male
But how does the AFC adjuct the fuel curve..a pressure regulator? It TAKES a signal from the AFM, but where does it SEND it's signal? If it has no connection to the injectors, this is all I can think of.
Old 11-07-2002 | 01:05 PM
  #60  
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Sounds logical

Originally posted by DA-MAX
I think signal from MAF goes to AFC and then the "modified" signal goes to ECU...the ECU takes it from there.

Old 11-07-2002 | 01:43 PM
  #61  
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Originally posted by Jeff92se
Sounds logical
Indeed it does
Old 11-07-2002 | 05:56 PM
  #62  
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Originally posted by Matt93SE
Nah.. it'll blow all of that old stuff out in a couple revolutions of the engine. takes (literally) a split second. If you're turning at 3000 RPM, which is about right for just finishing a shift, the engine is turning 50 times per second. that means it does a complete combustion cycle 25 times per second. think of how long it will take to blow all of the richened air out of the intake manifold? that's right.. about 0.1 sec.
Bog? I don't think so.
Try this...

Disconnect your CHTS on a cold morning and give the car a few good cranks till it begins to flood out. Then reconnect the chts and turn over the engine till you get 25 combustion cycles...then you will neet to crank even more to get it started.

The point is that too much fuel WILL bog down the engine, and the amount of excess fuel will depend on how far off the AFM's signal is from the amount of air that really gets to the engine. Sure, my example was extreme, and with car cold and not running, but it proves a point: 25 combustion strokes is not enough to get out any amount of excess fuel.

Not all cars are the same. Some react differently than others.
Old 11-07-2002 | 10:44 PM
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there's a HUGE difference between 25 combustion cycles when the engine is turning at 3000rpm and when the engine is turning at 300 rpm. at that low RPM, the engine will barely kick itself over, let alone not bog down with a nasty rich mixture.
Old 11-08-2002 | 02:09 PM
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Originally posted by Matt93SE
there's a HUGE difference between 25 combustion cycles when the engine is turning at 3000rpm and when the engine is turning at 300 rpm. at that low RPM, the engine will barely kick itself over, let alone not bog down with a nasty rich mixture.
I'll repeat it, as it is in my previous post:

>Sure, my example was extreme, and with car cold and not running, but >it proves a point: 25 combustion strokes is not enough to get out >any amount of excess fuel.

Sure, there's more rpm's , but there's more gas too. The point is that THERE IS A POINT AT WHICH TOO MUCH GAS WILL BOG DOWN AN ENGINE, REGUARDLESS OF RPM'S.

if you don't believe me, just pop some 720cc injectors in with more fuel pressure on otherwise stock fuel system....think it would work if you could turn 8000rpm's??? NO it won't. THE ENGINE WILL BOG DOWN.
Old 11-08-2002 | 03:00 PM
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Originally posted by Engloid


I'll repeat it, as it is in my previous post:

>Sure, my example was extreme, and with car cold and not running, but >it proves a point: 25 combustion strokes is not enough to get out >any amount of excess fuel.

Sure, there's more rpm's , but there's more gas too. The point is that THERE IS A POINT AT WHICH TOO MUCH GAS WILL BOG DOWN AN ENGINE, REGUARDLESS OF RPM'S.

if you don't believe me, just pop some 720cc injectors in with more fuel pressure on otherwise stock fuel system....think it would work if you could turn 8000rpm's??? NO it won't. THE ENGINE WILL BOG DOWN.

Indeed, overly rich conditions bog an engine..period. Why is this even a discussion? ANyone with carb experience (or troubleshooting any bogging condition for that matter) knows this. In fact, if someone came to me and said their engine was bogging, I would check the ignition timing, then check the air/fuel ratio.
Old 11-08-2002 | 03:07 PM
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Originally posted by male



Indeed, overly rich conditions bog an engine..period. Why is this even a discussion? ANyone with carb experience (or troubleshooting any bogging condition for that matter) knows this. In fact, if someone came to me and said their engine was bogging, I would check the ignition timing, then check the air/fuel ratio.
I have no idea why the topic has gotten to this...

I had nitrous on my 300zx. It was a wet kit that used only solenoids to put in fuel and nitrous. When the bottle would get low on pressure, I'd know it easily... the way I had it set up, I'd still get the same amount of fuel and I'd begin to actually lose power when I hit the button... even if I was running 4000rpm.
Old 11-08-2002 | 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by Engloid


I have no idea why the topic has gotten to this...

I had nitrous on my 300zx. It was a wet kit that used only solenoids to put in fuel and nitrous. When the bottle would get low on pressure, I'd know it easily... the way I had it set up, I'd still get the same amount of fuel and I'd begin to actually lose power when I hit the button... even if I was running 4000rpm.
Makes sense to some of us. A/F ratio is something that can't deviate too far one side or another..bad things happen either way.
Old 11-09-2002 | 07:39 AM
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I agree that too much fuel at any RPM will bog the engine, but you guys are forgetting to look at what's actually happening in THIS CASE. The fact that as soon as you stick your foot back on the gas after the shift, the A/F ratio goes back to "normal" and the problem is gone. it's not a constant overspraying of fuel in there. THAT will cause the engine to bog and lose power. it'll also cause you to melt your cat and really f*** up the engine, but that's beside the point.

the original discussion was on how/where to install a BOV. you guys made comments on how it'd run rich when you shifted if you put it after the MAF. it doesn't matter where you install it because the only time the BOV is venting is when you're not on the gas and it doesn't matter. as soon as you put your foot back on the gas, you blow ALL of the old fuel/air out of the engine and your correct A/F ratio is back and the turbo/SC is building pressure and the engine is running like it should. Does that make sense?
Old 11-09-2002 | 07:56 AM
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every bov i've seen was placed after the maf and before the tb so that seems like a safe spot to put it.
Old 11-09-2002 | 08:42 AM
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Originally posted by Matt93SE
I agree that too much fuel at any RPM will bog the engine, but you guys are forgetting to look at what's actually happening in THIS CASE. The fact that as soon as you stick your foot back on the gas after the shift, the A/F ratio goes back to "normal" and the problem is gone. it's not a constant overspraying of fuel in there. THAT will cause the engine to bog and lose power. it'll also cause you to melt your cat and really f*** up the engine, but that's beside the point.

the original discussion was on how/where to install a BOV. you guys made comments on how it'd run rich when you shifted if you put it after the MAF. it doesn't matter where you install it because the only time the BOV is venting is when you're not on the gas and it doesn't matter. as soon as you put your foot back on the gas, you blow ALL of the old fuel/air out of the engine and your correct A/F ratio is back and the turbo/SC is building pressure and the engine is running like it should. Does that make sense?
Actually this thread has gotten so lengthy, I don't remember who it was that said what...haha

I do know I was the one that had said a venting bov would not be a problem on these cars, but on some cars it can be a problem...from there, somebody else had gone on about how a venting bov can't cause a problem.

Again, I'll say (agree with you) a venting bov isn't going to be a problem on these cars.

What did you think of my bov pic? Definitely a cheap mod and works as well as any others do. I have 2 of the Turbo XS Type H bov's, but I have thought about selling them and keeping mine.

my homebrew bov pic:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/engloid/bov1.jpg
Old 11-09-2002 | 08:44 AM
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yeah, and the location must be between the turbo and throttle body. Otherwise it won't function properly. Yes, it's between the MAF and the TB, but if it's placed before the turbo, it won't work right.
Old 11-09-2002 | 09:21 AM
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Originally posted by Engloid
yeah, and the location must be between the turbo and throttle body. Otherwise it won't function properly. Yes, it's between the MAF and the TB, but if it's placed before the turbo, it won't work right.
I am definately interested in one of your BOV setups. I saw it a while back on z31.com. It may be a few months before I actually need this part, so if you no longer have one availabel, maybe you could share with me how you made it. Just describe it and I can get the rest from the pic. I like the idea.
Old 11-09-2002 | 09:31 AM
  #73  
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I got a few here. They're pretty easy to do. If you send me your intake pipe, or a spare, I can put it in for you. I also have had guys send me their bov's to weld in. Send me an email when you get ready.

If it can be welded, I can weld it...honestly. I've been welding for about 16 years...journeyman for 13. I finally bought a welding machine for the house about a year ago. You'd be surprised how many welders don't own their own machine, but when you can use the one at work, nobody wants to spend the money for one at home.

Things I'd like to have here at home:
Mill
Lathe
flowbench
Old 11-09-2002 | 10:32 AM
  #74  
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Don't know if you guys know but both the HKS AFR and the A'pexi S-AFC both have an option that corrects this by taking MAF readings and reducing the gas. HKS even has a stand alone unit that does this. It's only $110 or so for the basic unit and $160 or so for the "professional" unit.

*waiting for you don't know what you're talking about flame..*
Old 11-09-2002 | 10:41 AM
  #75  
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Originally posted by Maximamike
Don't know if you guys know but both the HKS AFR and the A'pexi S-AFC both have an option that corrects this by taking MAF readings and reducing the gas. HKS even has a stand alone unit that does this. It's only $110 or so for the basic unit and $160 or so for the "professional" unit.

*waiting for you don't know what you're talking about flame..*
I believe you're talking about the F-con, or possibly the Greddy E-Manage system. I considered the E-Manage system, but I don't want a piggy back system. I want a stand alone unit that will control timing, ignition, and much more. The SDS unit can even be bought with it's own coil packs, which I've heard have an awesome output.
Old 11-09-2002 | 10:59 AM
  #76  
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Nope, HKS E.I.D.S.

You can get them at SPLParts.com(Plug for Kuah.. Haha..)
Old 11-09-2002 | 11:00 AM
  #77  
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I thought you were "out and about and to call cell"???
Old 11-09-2002 | 01:44 PM
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Originally posted by dmontzmax
I thought you were "out and about and to call cell"???
Well, I was.. back now though..

Old 11-09-2002 | 02:25 PM
  #79  
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Originally posted by Maximamike
Don't know if you guys know but both the HKS AFR and the A'pexi S-AFC both have an option that corrects this by taking MAF readings and reducing the gas. HKS even has a stand alone unit that does this. It's only $110 or so for the basic unit and $160 or so for the "professional" unit.

*waiting for you don't know what you're talking about flame..*
you don't know what you're talking about.

(sorry Mikey, just had to say it! )
Old 11-09-2002 | 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by Matt93SE


you don't know what you're talking about.

(sorry Mikey, just had to say it! )
I'm now complete. Thanks Matt. LOL


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