Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

How come we don't have 222 hp like the 5-gens do??

We have the VTC tech, direct ign, dohc heads and the 5-sp has the varible length intake manifold.

I wonder what the bid diff is? I bet is higher compression and cams. Where's NISMO when you need him?

amax935

95-99 VQs were 190 hp too, what did they do to get to 222?

93max

because it has a better exhaust and intake system?

Lordrandall

iTrader: (4)

Uhhh, they have a Q and the VE doesn't?

LarryR

now now, as time goes on , Nissan will make veriations on engines and improve horsepower nd torque. the 32 extra hp and 12 extra lb-ft on the VQ-K engine compared to the VQ engine is due to the free-er flowing exhuast system (muffler) like somebody suggested. the VE engine was and improvement on the SOHC VG engine because it provided less torque for lower range rpms but more power in the higher range rpms, and also the NVCS allowed for more efficient acceleration. dont expect a newer maxima engine to be less competent just because it doesnt use VVT, however DO expect for the next Maxima engine ( VQ35DE)to use the variable timing system.

Larry R
89 SE

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

That's a very nice paragragh Larry but I'm looking for a technical explaination. I can't see the ve dual stage intake being that different than the 2k VQ one. I'm curioiu s though. The heads can't be that different either. Compression and ecu is what I'm thinking. I'll take 222 hp or 222 ft lbs torque. Either one

Maximamike

The VQ is gods gift to the automotive engineering world. Duh Jeff, don't you read the 4th, 5th, and General boards? VQ 4-ever! LOL

CandiMan

iTrader: (1)

Different ECU programing/cam profile/comp ratio/intake track/combustion chamber/cant forget 2 stage muffler/fuel injectors. What else could they be?

93max

hmmmmmmm..... do u think we can take those cams and stuff and put it in the VE?

DAREN

iTrader: (3)

i agree. these are the little things Nissan did to get the power.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Well here's my thoughts.
1) ECU: whatever they did, it was good.
2) Compression ratio. They found a way of running higher compression and still get good emissions/power/mileage etc.
3) Heads? This is a tough one. I think the dohc ve heads are fine. Maybe the valves are bigger?
4) Cams? Another ??
5) Intake: I'd like to get my hands on one and take a look.
6) Exhaust: Nah, we don't have any pre-cats like the 4-gen and 5-gens. Plus it's easy to upgrade out exhaust anyway so no biggie.

Czar

I didn't know that my engine has one of those? The motor that I got is out of an automatic and for the most part it the intake)is identical to mine. Do I have to switch the intake manifolds to keep what I had before?

I always wished Nissan put a VQ into the 3rd gen. The motor is 100lbs. lighter (which would have really helped today moving that beast of an engine around) The aluminum block transmits heat to the coolant more efficiently than cast iron so maybe they can run a higher comp. ratio without knocking. Also I think simplicity in design is wonderful. The VQ has about 100 pieces fewer than the VE, which means less complexity. The probs that VE's have with the VTCs have marred that engine's reputation as well. I am milking out one of my engines for ~250 crank HP NA and I am going to put an exhaust cam sprocket on the intake cams and tune for power without the variable valve timing.

As much as I love the VQ over the VE, I have this one thing to say to you 4th and 5th genners. Nissan must have fired its styling department after '94 because the new cars' looks SUCK!!!!

I wonder about the independant susp. on 3rd gens. How come they handle like crap when an independant susp. shoud have advantages over a beam axle? I have driven the 2000 SE's and one of the reasons I would consider buying one is because they actually handle awesome compared to 3rd gen. Maybe I will like my susp. more if I got some tokiko/eibach setup with thicker sway bars or something. I like my ride the way it is and I don't want to mess with that part of it too much to get the handles as well.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Czar, We'll take a ride if I show up. You can see what wheels, tokicos and eibachs feel like.

And yes, the auto VE and 5-sp VE have a slightly different intakes. The 5-sp VE feature a dual stage intake also that operated by a power valve. Look at the pass side of the intake and look for a vacuum cylinder and a little black hose leading to the back of the maniold. Your auto ve will not have one. If we meet, we will have to discuss how to switch these over. There are some other electrical things that have to be switched over also. ie.. the actuator for the power valve etc...

kaleb

Engine management system, intake manifold, compression isn't 10:1, exhaust, and fuel delivery system.

Nismo87SE

Basically it comes down to ECU, intake manifold, compression differences. The cams are the same profile, the exhaust is negliable. Its the intake manifold, that **** is big as hell. I compared the intake manifold gaskets and the VG30DE's are about an inch longer. No doubt it has larger/shorter runners so it will make more toppend power. Dont forget the VG30DE power peak is around 6200rpm, where as the VE is 5500-5700rpm. I don't think its even worth it to switch ECU's considering the JWT ECU would be alot better for the buck. Really it comes down to the intake manifold and compression differences. For example look at this dyno of a stock NA Z32 . You can see right at around 5500rpm the torque curve stays flat till around 6200rpm, thus the DE has more power because its made at a higher rpm. Now if one was to drop the flat torque from 5500-6200rpm, you'd get the curve of the VE. Matter of fact you VE guys might want to try boring out the TB to around 70mm. It would almost match the size of the dual 50mm TBs on the VGDE. This is also why its hard to make over 200-210fwhp NA. The power peak would have to happen after 6000rpm in order to get those numbers. Even VGDE's wiht headwork/bored TB's after bolt ons only gain like 7-12hp/2-6lb-ft vs just bolt ons.

LarryR

okay i know the question deserires a technical type of answer(jeff92se), but nissan constantly points out that the 32 extra horses is from the exhuast revisions. there are probably others but exhaust system is definately one of them.

RosenKen

And we all know that with new engines, manufacturers learn a lot about reducing engine inefficiency, just little things here and there like reducing piston friction, valvetrain friction, etc etc etc. It all adds up in the end

Spaz

Maybe they found new and better ways to recirculate exhaust too? coupled with more aggressive programming on the ecu and all the other stuff that everyone mentioned I don't think 32 flywheel HP is out of reach. all those little things can add up in a hurry
I'd like to see what the difference is at the wheels.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Thanks Nismo for the insight. Can't much about the compression but I may have to start looking into the "other" TB again. I wonder if it has to be recalibrated? I think it's 70mm

Nismo87SE

If your TPS will bolt onto the other TB then it should swap over with no probs. When I put the KA24E's 60mm TB on my VG I had to swap over my throttle plates and TPS. Also you will have to port match your intake collector. Next time you goto the dealer or if your bored see if they have the TB gasket for like a Q45. Otherwise you'd have to send a core TB to RC engineering to get bored to 70mm. It probably won't help your toppend power but it will net some lowend-midrange torque. I think a cam upgrade would be a good idea. The only problem is getting some cores, to be effective the profile has to be ground on new billets not used cams. Even though regrinding the new billets is only like $150, you have to buy 4 new camshafts ! But IMHO if I had a VE and it just had to run 13's . I would do CAI, Y pipe, hi flow cat, 2.5" b-pipe and cutout/dropped rear section, JWT ECU, UDP, 65 shot nitrous. This is more than enough to run 13's on street tires. Maybe get a S-AFC to fine tune the setup.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

How did you swap the throttle plates from your smaller tb to the large ka tb? The plates would be too small?

Nismo87SE

It was easy I just removed the nut on the throttle plate side and slide them off. The KA24E has a different throttle plate and it doesn't have one for cruise control. Also where you connect the throttle wire was in a different position so I wouldn't be able to get over 40% throttle . Aside from the time spent port matching the intake collector, the TB swap can be done in 1-3 hours. The better throttle and gas mileage more than make up for the $55 mod hehe .

CandiMan

iTrader: (1)

I recently got a set of intake manifold/collector and TB for my auto VE that I'm thinking of Extrude Honing. I've read different post from 4th gen guys who have force induction and they recorded no noticeable gains after they Ext Hone process. My "thought" behind their no gains because they are forcing air above atmospheric pressure, so smoothing and intake track may not show any differnce. Where as with a NA engine, the less turbelence and smoother the intake track "might" show a difference somewhere in the power band. I gave Ext Hone a called and they told me they dont do TB because they dont want to deal with the issue of installing a larger throttle plate. I'm not too concern about needing a larger plate because I'm sure I can find a machinist to fabricate a new plate. Earlier you mentioned about RC Eng, do they make TB larger if so what process do they use. Also I'm not too sure what the size of the OEM TB is, but what the maximum TB size would you recommend. I'm aware that a JWT ECU will show more noticeable gains or maybe a higher stall converter, but I'm trying to explore all my possible bolt-on mods before going that route, but the ECU is in my plans. Maybe even a JWT NoS ECU, who knows. Do you have a website or phone number I can call for info on the RC Eng products? Thanks

Nismo87SE

The reason the extrude honed intake manifold isn't worth the cost in the 4th gens is because it doesn't make much of a significant difference. Basically there is like no gain until 5000-6700rpm, even then you only gain like 2-5fwhp. It doesn't alter the torque curve at all, it will still drop off like before but not as much. In reality the gains are simular to that of a catback . Here is the link to RC engineering http://www.rceng.com/. I believe the stock TB is around 64-65mm, Bryan H bored his to 70mm so I don't see why you can do it also. Another way to make your car fast is to buy some extra 15" wheels and put on some 205/50-15s. These tires will effectively lower your final gear ratio from 3.62 to 4.00. Combined with your other mods and a higher stall TC, it means killer launches and your 1/4 ET will drop since your alot closer to your power peak in 3rd gear.

DaBoxSE

iTrader: (5)

I just feel left out Just peeking.

FroMan

that is a whole nother can of worms.. a much simplier can of worms in many ways, but difficult just the same...

As soon as I can find a job and a suitable car perhaps we can see what a VG can do. Although I do have to find a dyno......



Fro

got boost?? neither do I!!

FroMan

two things come to mind
1. ecu
2. cam profile

i think most of the power can be found in these txwo places. Although neither is inexpensive... Do the vgdett or de cams work with the Ve's???

look on the bright side atleast you have a VLSD

fro

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

I think it might even be different intake or exhaust valve size. I never see it discussed here. As Nismo mentiones, I would also like to know the TB size and take a look at their intake manifold.

Nismo87SE

No VG30DE or VG30DETT cams won't work in the VE. If the cams were swapped you'd have way to much lift and possibly piston to valve contact. Not to mention both cams have the same profile with the VTC. I remember Kyle from SGP told me that JUN made cams for the VG30DE, but I don't know if they are really effective. Maybe if one of the VE guys was brave enough to send their cams to ISKY to be reground we can see how well the car does. One thing is for sure you can't go really agressive on the cam profile without getting the ECU reprogrammed. Even then you'd still probably have to fine tune the JWT ECU if you a custom set of cams. The reason is because no one has cams for this engine so there is no tuning done to it. On the other side JWT has designed the VG cams and updated their ECU program to best suit the cams. I only wish VG cams were as easy as VE cams to swap. I think the easiest way is to just lift the engine enough to swap cams. Otherwise the cam swap would take a shop around 1-3 days and cost like $400-800 labor!

NightRider

iTrader: (6)

Basically, the 4th gen handles like crap. I'm still a 3rd gen guy at heart because I just got my 4th gen a few months ago after my 3rd gen was taken from me by a drunk driver. when I had my 3rd gen, I used to be outhandled by the 4th gens, until I got my sway bars. Basically, the stock sway bars were worn out, and caused my car to handle horribly. But now that I get to drive a 4th gen, and even with a newer suspension I dont see any potential sporty feel at all. this thing handles like an SUV.

DavidMaxum

This thread originally started as a question as to why the 2k maximas have 222hp and the 3rd gen VE only 190. Don't forget that the torque on these engines is almost indentical. You can talk about ecu, cams, heads, intake and exhaust but the bulk of that extra horsepower came from lighter reciprocating parts and the reduction of friction loss horsepower but I digress. My modded 93SE 5spd will dust any stock 5th gen so I am not impressed. It depends on what you want in a car.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Really? List your mods man! And your 1/4 times.

Czar

I test drove a 2K Se and I wasn't so impressed with the power. The torque is the same prob. to 4500(I am talking seat of the pants feel), but they seem to have a little more up high prob. from the better breathing. Where I was really impressed was the handling was way better than my max. I think with a few mild boltons the 3nd gen is the 5th gen's equal in power... The weight just doesn't bode well for the 2K.

DavidMaxum

As an answer to your Jeff92SE. I have the Place Racing CAI with an E-ram attached. I have a custom flowmaster Ypipe that flows through a 2 1/2" flex into a stock cat with 2 1/2" mandrel pipe to a super turbo single out muffler. The flowmaster style Y joins the two downpipes without restricting back to the 2 or so inches it is 2 1/2" out. The unit was previously a greddy unit that had a bad resonator and muffler both replaced. The non straight through muffler was desirable for lowered sound and the needed increase in backpressure while stock/sleeper looking. I also have a mueller 11lb. flywheel mated to a DualFriction Centerforce and the ASP underdrive pulley. I have eibach/tokico with SuspTech sways and a courtesy fstb. I also have a pacesetter short shifter and the JWT ECU. As for the times they are with g-tech pro and my avg 0-60 was 6.35 and my 1/4 mile times are around the mid to upper 14's. I stated that the 2k maximas aren't that fast due to these and that my boss has a STOCK 2k auto that I dust him all the time. I also used the g-tech in his car a couple of times with only me in the car. The best 0-60 was 6.8 and quarter mile well above 15 seconds. I am planning to go with the JWT N20 upgrade and I expect to be below 6 seconds from 0-60 and maybe a little more than a second off my 1/4 mile time.

JonnyMax

Well it seem that your car has all the mods that I have/plan to have soon. So I have to ask about your UDP and Flywheel combo!

People have mentioned that the lightned flywheel and UDP are a bad combination, what is your opinion? how is driveability with the two? and where did you get the flywheel form and how much was it??

Do you think that the suspension helped your 1/4 mile times at all? what difference did you feel the ECU made? and were you on street tires when you tested?

sorry for all the questions but I would really like to know all this stuff!

DavidMaxum

Well it seem that your car has all the mods that I have/plan to have soon. So I have to ask about your UDP and Flywheel combo! This combo complements our high reving engine and the horsepower comes on much faster. Wheelspin can be induced even after traction is established, just by flooring the automobile. At idle it seems to hesitate slightly but it has not affected drivability.

People have mentioned that the lightned flywheel and UDP are a bad combination, what is your opinion? how is driveability with the two? and where did you get the flywheel form and how much was it?? The flywheel is manufactured by Muellerfabrication.com and it is the same one that Unorthodox, Stillen, or NOPI around my parts sells for upwards of $650. I got mine through a friend for about $400 delivered and I bought my DFcenterforce on the web, something like automotivespecialties. Huuuum? Paid $300 delivered. Can't remember but that thing sure holds and engages smoothly.

Do you think that the suspension helped your 1/4 mile times at all? what difference did you feel the ECU made? and were you on street tires when you tested? I definitely believe that the suspension will reduce acceleration squat and provide better overall handling especially after all components can complement the cars independant suspension and mine has ABS. Braking distances and roadholding are also much improved with minimal ride and comfort difference. The eibach/tokico's are better suited for hitting a railroad crossing at 40mph. The stock suspension would probably bottom out on the subframe cross-member. The suspension were my first mods besides my stereo system.
The JWT ECU is definitely a good buy it will further enhance your mods and allow for a greater midrange punch too bad for the 5th gens out there. I would highly recommend getting this after you have done some intake/exhaust work.
The tires are sumitomos HTRZII 225/45/17 from the tirerack and they are on some 8 inch wide Borbet type E rims. They are excellent tires for the price with a very attractive pattern and hook up nicely. I want to go with some 235's next set to try and get better traction. It is much better than those 195/65/15 that are stock. Later.

JonnyMax

Well My UDP should be here tomorrow and I cant wait to put it on! and after that I will be getting my ACT Clutch and I will probably get my Flywheel lightened at the same time.
Then in a month or so I plan to have the ECU and the ST sways.

Gotta get ready for the strip in april!

CandiMan

iTrader: (1)

For the past 14-16 months I've heard different things about the e-Ram from the SeR guys who have tried it and did no gain any significant HP. When you look at e-Ram web-site they seem pretty confident that their product will show a certain percent in HP gain, and it's garantee or your money back. My question, did you notice any increase performance before and after the e-Ram? Try doing a G-Tech run with and without the e-Ram to see if there's a difference. From my understanding the e-Ram does not show any gains with Nissan MAF sensors, but I could be wrong. You have some serious mods, kinda makes we which I had a 5spd instead. What are your HP numbers from the G-Tech? I just ordered a G-Tech because I'm interested to see what's the differnce in numbers when compared to my last chassis dyno run. I'm planning some future mods and I need a base-line HP number to see if there's a difference and I can't afford to strap the car on the rollers after every mod. I have all the mods you have besides the 5spd mods and the e-Ram and I'm pushing 168.3 FWHP, how about that for an auto. I'm figuring you should be somewhere above 190FWHP, dont stretch the truth. Later

DavidMaxum

I am pretty sure that there are some engines/cars out there such as some 2.0 liter cars that are specifically excluded from there guarantees and testing. Also larger displacement like above 4.0liters are also not going to benefit much due to volume of air necessary to create the boosting effect. Go to there order page and look aroung I think it might specifically exclude the sentras and some domestics 4bangers. As for my response it has been great I can truly say that it felt as if I had just got my Y-pipe installed again. You know what I mean as you drive the power just doesn't impress like it used to. The G-tech pro is pretty accurate and once you start to use it and it will become an invaluable one of your tuning tools. I have mainly used mine for 0-60, 1/4mile times and braking distances. My bests were,6.27,14.54, and 126feet respectively. I became quite curious as to the effectiveness of the horsepower calculations. This is where vehicle weight plays an extremely important role. The G-tech is a accelerometer and it uses time, acceleration and the rate of that acceleration to determine the horsepower numbers. Remember that the rate of acceleration decreases as speed increases so hp figures will be the highest in the lower gears. These figures take into account not only driveline loss hp but wind resistance and weight transfer will also reduce these numbers. Back to the measuements, on the side of my vehicle my GVWR is 4250lbs which is a fully loaded car. The G-tech manual instructs you to subtract 180lbs for every passenger that is not in the vehicle. I subtracted 540 lbs giving me 3710lbs. I also added the weight of my sound deadening material, speaker box and amp rack to average weight of 150lbs which brought me to the 3860lb total which I imput into the G-tech pro. The highest number I ever got was 199fwhp. I have checked other sources for our vehicles weight and have seen much lower numbers. This only discourages me further because this less weight you enter in the lower the hp figures. I am convinced that this aspect of the G-tech is not accurate for our cars. I would much rather do a dyno run to have any kind off braging rights. The main problem is getting traction of the line in the lowest gears as to maximize the horsepower readings. Let me know. Later.

CoolMax

iTrader: (7)

You've been thinking too much, dumb-***.

I think you just want a new Maxima.