why is everyone so ga ga over swapping engines? and turboing? who really does any of that? maybe .1% of org followers. i admit, it is part of the fun here.

but what happened to 3-angle valve jobs? and flow-bench work? and cam work? what happened to "all motor" hot rodding? it is all the same for a V-6 or 8. so why this swapping nightmare fantasy world? and why do we get the occasional turbo thread that creates this idea that it is some weekend keg-party project? it is not. it is like building the space shuttle. so where are we really?

i'd like to see an all-motor, N/A monster in the 3rd gen. i dare anyone. if there is a thread already about this, then someone flame me and direct me there as soon as possible.

and why does no one ever mention altering the gear ratios in the transmission? that alone would create insane results.

 

People are panzies
Really though it is because adding boost to an engine has become a cheap method for making lots of power. Engine are normally performed for a motor which is more stout or just larger.
Automobiles have changed, and so have times. The main reason why you will not see it happening much on these boards is because the cars are Japanesse and they were designed damn well. Their not like Big and Small Block V8's where adding headers can easily free up 35hp, (some of the old hipo 454's used to be so restrictive hotrodders saw 75hp gains by tearing off the stock manifolds and bolting on a good set of headers) thats headers alone! we could not even get 35hp with a completely custom exhaust from the heads to the tip's. Same thing with porting, there is not much to be gained by doing it on our engines. Every little bit helps, but the gains just do not justify the costs for a majority of the members on this site.

While looking at the specifications of the VQ35DE, I believe that we can gain alot of power by boring out our engines. The VG and VE have the same bore and stroke, the smallest bore when compared to the VQ30 and VQ35, but the largest stroke compared to the VQ30 and VQ35. If we can bore out our engines to the same specs as the VQ35, I think we make more power than a stock VQ35, and probably even more with proper tuning. It would also be a very torquey motor.

I understand what your saying though. I think the main reason why no one really does All Motor builds is because its just too expensive, and really too hard for a majority of the members on this board.

Wanna talk about Building up Small Block Mopars? I've got tons of tricks up my sleeves for them.

 

thank you mr. gone. i can put that to rest once and for all. i have been aware of the newer engines being better thing. and as you said, many of the old skool things require that the entire engine be taken apart and re-machined - beyond the scope of practicality or general worth for what is gained.

i was not aware of the VG and VE having the same bore and stroke. i must have incorrectly assumed that the VG had the longer stroke of the two, as it has more low-end torque than the VE (although the VE will kill a VG overall). and could the VG or VE actually be bored to VQ35 limits?

as for me, i like very torquey low-end power. i crave that.

 

I haven't really looked into the VG vs. VE dyno graphs, so I'm not completely sure, but I dont think the VG really has all that much more torque than the VE, just from riding around in on and whatnot. Again thats just based on the butt-dyno. I'd really like to see the dyno graphs though.

I'd also just like to clear up one thing, the whole 'old skool' things your talking out, people still do them, but you dont really ever hear of people swapping cranks and entire rotating masses out of engines and whatnot, instead now days people just swap the entire engine. Normally the reason people beef up the internals now days is because of boost, then nitrous, but its mainly boost. Sorry if that doesn't make sense, its late and I'm watching TV

I am not entirely sure how far you can safely bore out our blocks, I have been thinking about taking it in to a local shop I know of who use this sonic technology that can locate weak, soft, and stressed (among other things) parts of the block. It could also give me a pretty precise estimate on how far we can go in boring out the block. Of course I only have a VE, and I havent been able to compare the two blocks, so if I do get around to doing it, VG guys might not benefit as much from it.

Another thing I still need to do is compare the 4 engines (VG/VE/VQ30/VQ35) to see what the differences are. I know that the wrist pins on the VE is significantly bigger than the VG's, but I dont remember what the VQ's were. Its just something I wanted to look into abit more.

Oh and I did not trying to imply that newer engines are better. Yes they are more modern, and can be produced cheaper and with more technology, but that does not necessarily make them better than older engines, take a 426 Hemi (or my personal favorite, 318ci) for example

[/blurb]

 

mr. gone,

generally, the VG cannot hold a candle much to the VE. it does have slightly more LOW-end torque. but overall, the VE has more torque. apparently it has more going for it (except maybe for the VTC problems).

it does make sense to me about changing the internals relative to boost needs. today, it seems one and the same -it is widely assumed that if you even remotely talk of changing the pistons, for example, that it is because you are saying really " i'm going to turbo this engine so i need lower stock compression." to most, it is nonsensical to alter the internals without having an agenda of forced induction.

i would be interested to know really how far you can bore out our blocks. i gather by now that the word is the stock internals can handle a LOT of boost. my main concern, really, is not "can" it handle it. it is actually doing it. turboing seems far more complex than old skool tricks. so much more seems necessary to orchestrate. and to KEEP it running day to day. what do you think?

at this late hour, i am starting to feel that it may actually be better to just swap out an entire engine - completely contradicting myself and my entire premise. but sometimes i need to argue for the other side to see the reality of what it really is: so much must be changed that you might as well get an engine that is already changed and just adapt the car around the engine.

 

I'm generally from the old school, the bigger the better, more power, more gas, more fun! I would be interested to know how hard it would be to swap a VQ in place of the VE. Any takers?

 

oh so many great ideas, so much power to be made..all i need is another VE and chassis...and money, lots of money. i'm not unwilling, i'm financially unable.

 

simple answer...because a turbo motor will ALWAYS have the potential to be faster, no matter what is done n/a. IMO NA/all-motor is a waste...you can only build to a limit...FI is pretty much infinite.

 

why would you want to id be a big waste of money. the only thing the the VQ has on the VE is no vtc problem but the power is the same and boosted would more than likly yield the same results in power. its just that the people that own the newer maxs typicaly have more money to throw around so alot more are boosted

 

Sorry, I should have said VQ35!

 

it's also a lighter engine than the VE but might not have the same power handling capabilities as the VE due to aluminum block vs iron block. Not saying they can't handle power though since there are quite a few guys pulling over 300 whp on stock internals and even more power than that on some.

I think the VG actually could take on the VE but that's if the stakes were fair... like say the VG30DE. It also has the same bore and stroke as the VG30E and VE and the compression ratio is closer to the VE. The VG30DE is difinitely an awesome engine, more so in the twin turbo form. The internals are forged on those (TT), minus the pistons, and will handle around 600 hp supposedly. I've heard of someone pulling 1300 hp on a stock crank though but that probably wouldn't run too long.

another reason why FI and engine swaps are popular is because they seem to be much cheaper in the long run. Especially considering this is how much a built N/A engine costs http://www.hekimianracing.com/nissan3lna.html

 

um ...
FI means FUEL INJECTION that's it. it has nothing to do with turbos or superchargers or Nitrous.
NA is Normal Aspiratred as in NO turbos or superchargers or Nitrous.
You can have turbos or superchargers or Nitrous with a non FI motor too.



Now back to your regularly scheduled thread

 

Forced Induction
FI does mean fuel injection but it's also being used as forced induction a lot lately. tends to get confusing sometimes...

 

New one by me, but it does "make" sense I guess.
Just like intake is no longer an intake but a reference to a pipe

 

i would still like to see a built N/A VG or VE. it would be cool to see how far that could be pushed. the expense notwithstanding, it seems like it may be more reliable than a boosted max.

 

the hekimian racing vg30e pushes 300 hp n/a.

 

I'll never understand is why poeple tend to feel that way...IMO stress on a motor is stress on a motor no matter what. and whos to say the turbo motor won't make more power at a low "tolerable" psi...while the n/a motor is revving to all hell to even make a decent gain, which one will blow first then??

 

ONLY if the quality of the parts and the quality of the person putting the engine back together is good/equal to Nissan. Which is pretty damn hard to do. Yes, boost introduces alot of potential to damage the engine but at least you are working with an engine built by Nissan and not by joe schmoe in his dirty garage.

Anyway, you also assume there would be significant gains to be had by doing a na motor. That only assumes that these engines are very inefficent to begin with. That's not really the case. So you are left to do some serious regrinds and up the compression. But make drivabilty suffer and reliablity lower. Plus where are you going to get gas for a 11:1 to 11.5:1 compression engine?

I think you could get 50-60fwhp out of a well built na VE30DE. That would cost a GOOD $2000-$3000. I can get 70-90fwhp out of the same engine with a mid range pressure turbo. AND still retain stock like cold starts and part throttle performance. This with the same $2000-$3000.

A na built engine would be neat. But not neat enough for me to dive into it that's for sure. If you want to do it, fine, best of luck to ya.

 

i agree id rather have boost. i just love that hiss after she spools up !

 

Turbos are fun, that's why! Seriously, there is just something fun about boost. You can have your car tuned to handle a certain maximum amount of boost, and turn it down for daily/casual driving. You can't do anything like that with a n/a built engine.
Personally, I love both turbo and n/a built engines. They each have their +'s and -'s. Though, it would be far easier/cheaper to create a turbo setup for, say...a 3rd gen Maxima and get more power, rather than building the engine up n/a. If you really want to, you can turbocharge your car for relatively cheap. Of course it isn't going to be some 2bar of boost mk4 Supra or anything, but you could still make a decent amount of power for under $1k if you learn about turbochargers and do it all yourself.

 

i think the only real differences in realiability of the motor itself is the fact that you dont HAVE to boost all the time, you can easily control the boost by way of the throttle (and a boost controller too), less boost SHOULD mean less wear, right? with an all motor setup, you're running 11:1CR all the time, you cant really modulate that...both have their advantages and i'd love to tackle both methods of power production but like everyone else, the wallet and bank accounts dont approve, yet.

 

For the whole VQ swap thing.... why? Less weight? not much. I've seen a few VQ blocks and girdles broken, but I've never seen a VE with a hole in the side of its block. Granted there are more boosted VQ guys than there are VE's, but still. If someone give's me a turbo/sc to use, I'll happily boost the hell out of my engine. I'll crank it up to 400hp and see what happens. At that point if everything looks good, I'll crank it up to 450hp. I cant build a turbo setup for my car right now because I dont have any money to, but I'll be a test monkey back to the point. Everyone calling VTC's a problem? you ground them and your done with it, its not a problem. You also loose the stock VI.

Another thing, I think the combustion chamber design on the VE (I just havent seen, well actually cant remember what the VG's looked like) is pretty good. Its even and just designed very well (same with the VQ). Jeff is right though, if you bump up the compression too much, you can have a problem with pinging, and lets face it, no one is going to dump $5 a gallon for some C16 just to drive their car to school/work.

 

Let's see $5 a gallon.
fill tank with 15 gallons.
$75 a fillup.
Remortgage house to pay for gas.
YUP sounds good to me!

 

seems to be the recurring theme with us 3rd gen owners...

 

YUP we're all cheap or broke

 

im not cheap...just broke if i had the money id build her up ! turbo and all. i get a jdm VE rebuild and then build her up for boost. backed by the 5spd/fidanza/exedy.

 

Another reason people haven't gone all the way and done crazy stuff with 3rd gen Maximas is because of what the car is. I love 3rd gen Maximas but, the fact is they are FWD and not a sports car. I had crazy ideas for my Maxima until I realized this. FWD SUCKS! There is only so much you can do with it. Now, I just want to do a simple turbo setup and get around 300fwhp at most, which would be easily accomplished with some minor modding on the vg30e. That would be enough power to have fun with. For an actual fast sports car, screw the Maxima, I'm buying a Porsche 944 turbo, z32 TT or some other relatively cheap sports car that can be made fast for cheap (mkIII Supra turbo is another great one). It looks like I might be getting a 944 Turbo (Turbo S if I can find one in my price range) soon since some of my valve seals are going and all of my suspension is worn out, plus many other problems. 944 Turbo S = 0-60 5.5sec, 13.5 1/4mi, 162mph top speed, 250hp 258lb/ft torque stock! That's an excellent base to start with if you want to modify something. There are tons of things you can do with them as well. You could swap in a 944 s2 or 968 3.0l i4 (biggest production 4cyl ever made), 968 6spd gearbox and turbocharge it for some serious power.

Z32TT's, ecu, boost jets, intake/exhaust and you are at about 400 crank hp.

 

Blasphemy!

 

fwd doesn't mean they aren't sports cars. i've seen some pretty mean eclipse gst's and those are only fwd. fwd can suck compared to rwd sometimes but other times it could be good. just depends on what you are wanting to do with the car.

 

lets see you drive in the snow with RWD in your 400hp german monster


All your points (everyone) are very well taken. I would love to get as much HP out of my car that bolt on mods can give me. Remember that big engines need big trannies too and alot of other big parts with big $$

 

have fun with paying for parts to fix stuff when it breaks on your porche or better yet take it to the dealer so you can really drop some major cash for repairs.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if it's FWD, it isn't a sports car. It may be "sporty" but true sports cars are RWD, IMO. It is a sports sedan. Don't get me wrong, I love 3rd gen Maximas. I love mine to death past the point of insanity. Everyone tells me to sell mine because it's given me nothing but problems. Though, I love it too much to get rid of it. I'm not knocking the Maxima, so don't attack me. I'm just being realistic. The Maxima will never be a RWD sports car like Porsches, Supras, Skylines, 300zx's, etc. It is a sports sedan. Engine swaps, turbo setups, etc are all cool, and I congratulate anyone that pushes the envelope in these areas. Though, I see some people talking on this board that sound like they think they are going to turn their Maxima into a twin turbo 800hp sports car, and they are just fooling themselves. Come on, Jeff92se, Matt93se, etc some of you "veteran" Maxima guys who have been on here awhile have to agree with me.

 

I agree with Shadow pretty much. I mod mine for kicks because it's been a great car for me, this site is great and the car is cheap to mod.
I don't have any fantasies about it being a super sports car or whatever but that doesn't mean I can have fun with it.

I don't totally agree with Shadow's choices for his RWD platforms but that's what great about modding cars. Everyone mods everything and it's interesting to see what people come up with.

 

Don't start with me on Porsches. You have no idea. I'm a walking Porsche dictionary and I know my stuff when it comes to them (obsessed with Porsche since 5yrs/old). Ask me a question if you don't believe it.

944's are not unreliable and expensive as hell to fix like some people like to say they are. I do all my own work, and would do so on a 944 as well. They can be maintained for relatively cheap. Some things on them are expensive, yes, though it isn't as expensive as you would think. Taking one to a dealer though is kind of stupid since it costs so much less if you do it yourself. Sorry to get OT.


As far as n/a engine builds, I would love to see someone do one on a VE.

As far as engine swaps go, I still would love to get a 1st gen Maxima and swap an rb20 or rb25det into it for some serious fun!

 

That's exactly what I was getting at. Well put Jeff.

 

i think at this point, after having read all of the posts here, that there are pros and cons to both ways. but the turbo way is the better way economically. to build up an all-motor hotrod you got to spend major dollars, nearly stratospheric, to get similiar results out of a turbo.

and the turbo way seems, if i can say it, more "practical," ie, you can run pump gas with it and not worry about the massive internal wear and tear issues that all-motor builds can have.

i think that routing plumbing, including fabricating pipes and flanges, etc, and handling the fuel management and boost is a PIA, but, then again, what isn't? you'd have to handle fuel management anyway with all-motor.

a major concern of mine is the tranny: the borg warner is a piece of sh*t. it fails even under stock horsepower.

and the debate about FWD being sportscar or not, 4 door sedan, etc, will never end. IMO the Maxima is a "sporty sedan" than can either be skewed, ie, modded, to be "more" sport, or remain a grocery-getter for mom. sort of a crossover idea. the maxima's styling is not that of a buick century sedan - a total bore. but it is not a 911 porsche; it is similar to the 3-series beemers. those are, i guess, "true" sports sedans because they have the RWD going for them and they are hi-performance from the factory. so why does FWD automatically disqualify a car from being a sports car? i don't think that is fair. i have been to car shows where i have seen multi-thousand dollar hondas (cough), even camrys, slammed like any supra. so what gives?

 

btw, i have an S14. like jeff says, i don't have any fantasies about the maxima being some over-the-top "sports monster." it isn't worth it, really. it is fun to mod it. and that's about it.

i'm going to sink the bucks into the S14 - a RWD sports car.

 

You'd be better off starting with a Turbo 280Z motor. Then you can easily install it and spend the money you save on more performance parts. Which are (or were) readily available. Not too mention you get a larger displacement motor to start with, That will run forever !

 

I would stay away from the L28 myself. Those things are extremely heavy, heavier than a VG30DET for comparison. On top of that, 400 hp seems to be really high for those which compared to an RB is usually cake. If I were to do an awesome swap I would put a VG30DET into a 240Z. 2400 pounds with 600 hp or more and some awesome torque makes a sweet drag car that can handle extremely well.

 

Personally I would drop in a 340ci Mopar in a heartbeat. It takes a Mopar to catch a Mopar