VE TURBO POWER! pic
08-25-2004, 09:00 AM
#41
i get about... 40 miles to half a tank... when my intake pipe comes off.
otherwise i can get about 350 to the tank on the highway with a poor tune and boosting somewhat often. i know it can be a lot better though once i can actually edit eproms.
otherwise i can get about 350 to the tank on the highway with a poor tune and boosting somewhat often. i know it can be a lot better though once i can actually edit eproms.
08-25-2004, 09:05 AM
#43
Originally Posted by mtcookson
you'd actually be surprised. if you do a good turbo system, when not boosting, you can actually get some pretty good gas mileage. i know of some people that have been getting better gas mileage due to having a better flowing intake and exhaust, more efficient this and that, and very good tuning. the only time your gas mileage suffers is when you're boosting.
if you're going to drive like a grandma then why bother slapping on a turbo?
more air goes in means more fuel goes in.
08-25-2004, 10:38 AM
#45
yeah, mine is a daily driver too.
who says i drive like a grandma? i just like accelerating really fast but don't speed (real fast over the speed limit).
how does an engine get better gas mileage when you put on a high flow air filter then?
all you're doing is just making the engine more efficient at burning the air and fuel.
if you're going to drive like a grandma then why bother slapping on a turbo?
more air goes in means more fuel goes in.
all you're doing is just making the engine more efficient at burning the air and fuel.
08-25-2004, 11:01 AM
#46
Originally Posted by mtcookson
yeah, mine is a daily driver too.
who says i drive like a grandma? i just like accelerating really fast but don't speed (real fast over the speed limit).
how does an engine get better gas mileage when you put on a high flow air filter then?
all you're doing is just making the engine more efficient at burning the air and fuel.
who says i drive like a grandma? i just like accelerating really fast but don't speed (real fast over the speed limit).
how does an engine get better gas mileage when you put on a high flow air filter then?
all you're doing is just making the engine more efficient at burning the air and fuel.
- accelerating really fast doesn't help your MPG...or does it in your car?
- you believe that marketing crap? I'm talking about a turbo here.
- efficient sure...how much more efficient? still talking about turbo here...more air = more fuel. i don't care what you say but the laws of physics and chemistry doesn't change in your engine.
08-25-2004, 11:03 AM
#47
I've seen VG Maximas putting down 350+ hp on the ground and still get 30+ mpg on the highway. it's in the tuning, not in your foot.
take a look at your boost/vacuum gauge next time you're cruising down the highway at 80. you're pulling around 10-11 mmHg of vacuum. nowhere near boost territory.
around town, keep your foot out of it and you hardly build boost unless you're trying. I spent a few days driving around a 400+hp Z and I onlt hit boost a few times- when merging on the highway and outrunning aome goober that tried to cut me off in traffic. otherwise I was on the vacuum side of the gauge all the time.
thus it's engine efficiency that plays the key role in MPG. the better the heads, intake, and exhaust flow, the less the engine has to work to produce the 30-40-50hp needed to keep the car moving around town.. the less work the engine does, the less fuel used, the better gas mileage you get.
Edit... Now when boosting, that's a completely different story. at WOT our cars only get about 7mpg anyway. usually I consider it a good day if I get 9mpg at the track... I have to shut it down and fill up at about 3/8 tank, otherwise the fuel pump can't pick up fuel in the tank and I run lean. (bad!!!). but I'm lucky if I get 90 miles on that 3/4 tank...
on the highway drive home, I can still get 400+ miles on a tank.
it's all in how hard you mash your foot down.
take a look at your boost/vacuum gauge next time you're cruising down the highway at 80. you're pulling around 10-11 mmHg of vacuum. nowhere near boost territory.
around town, keep your foot out of it and you hardly build boost unless you're trying. I spent a few days driving around a 400+hp Z and I onlt hit boost a few times- when merging on the highway and outrunning aome goober that tried to cut me off in traffic. otherwise I was on the vacuum side of the gauge all the time.
thus it's engine efficiency that plays the key role in MPG. the better the heads, intake, and exhaust flow, the less the engine has to work to produce the 30-40-50hp needed to keep the car moving around town.. the less work the engine does, the less fuel used, the better gas mileage you get.
Edit... Now when boosting, that's a completely different story. at WOT our cars only get about 7mpg anyway. usually I consider it a good day if I get 9mpg at the track... I have to shut it down and fill up at about 3/8 tank, otherwise the fuel pump can't pick up fuel in the tank and I run lean. (bad!!!). but I'm lucky if I get 90 miles on that 3/4 tank...
on the highway drive home, I can still get 400+ miles on a tank.
it's all in how hard you mash your foot down.
08-25-2004, 11:06 AM
#48
accelerating really fast destroys your gas mileage.
i don't believe all of the marketing crap but i did get a noticeable increse in fuel economy by getting a better air filter.
since you're talking about the turbo, when turbo is cramming in more air you are going to get worse fuel economy because you'll need more fuel.
i said before, when boosting (positive intake manifold pressure) you will have worse fuel economy. when you aren't boosting and have a good tune on your ecu you can get better gas mileage.
edit: Matt just explained it the best.
i don't believe all of the marketing crap but i did get a noticeable increse in fuel economy by getting a better air filter.
since you're talking about the turbo, when turbo is cramming in more air you are going to get worse fuel economy because you'll need more fuel.
i said before, when boosting (positive intake manifold pressure) you will have worse fuel economy. when you aren't boosting and have a good tune on your ecu you can get better gas mileage.
edit: Matt just explained it the best.
08-25-2004, 11:09 AM
#49
Originally Posted by mtcookson
accelerating really fast destroys your gas mileage.
i don't believe all of the marketing crap but i did get a noticeable increse in fuel economy by getting a better air filter.
since you're talking about the turbo, when turbo is cramming in more air you are going to get worse fuel economy because you'll need more fuel.
i said before, when boosting (positive intake manifold pressure) you will have worse fuel economy. when you aren't boosting and have a good tune on your ecu you can get better gas mileage.
edit: Matt just explained it the best.
i don't believe all of the marketing crap but i did get a noticeable increse in fuel economy by getting a better air filter.
since you're talking about the turbo, when turbo is cramming in more air you are going to get worse fuel economy because you'll need more fuel.
i said before, when boosting (positive intake manifold pressure) you will have worse fuel economy. when you aren't boosting and have a good tune on your ecu you can get better gas mileage.
edit: Matt just explained it the best.
LOL ok we're going in circles...when are u NOT boosting? below 2500? 3000?
08-25-2004, 11:17 AM
#52
ok... i'm getting lost with you here.
when you add a turbo and have the car tuned well, you can increase your gas mileage when you are not boosting (which can be at any rpm).
when you are boosting you are putting in more air into the engine which requires more fuel. this will decrease your gas mileage. like matt said though, you get terrible gas mileage when turbo or n/a when flooring it.
when you add a turbo and have the car tuned well, you can increase your gas mileage when you are not boosting (which can be at any rpm).
when you are boosting you are putting in more air into the engine which requires more fuel. this will decrease your gas mileage. like matt said though, you get terrible gas mileage when turbo or n/a when flooring it.
08-25-2004, 11:20 AM
#54
Originally Posted by mtcookson
ok... i'm getting lost with you here.
when you add a turbo and have the car tuned well, you can increase your gas mileage when you are not boosting (which can be at any rpm).
when you are boosting you are putting in more air into the engine which requires more fuel. this will decrease your gas mileage. like matt said though, you get terrible gas mileage when turbo or n/a when flooring it.
when you add a turbo and have the car tuned well, you can increase your gas mileage when you are not boosting (which can be at any rpm).
when you are boosting you are putting in more air into the engine which requires more fuel. this will decrease your gas mileage. like matt said though, you get terrible gas mileage when turbo or n/a when flooring it.
so you're saying when you have a turbo...
you're running at 5000RPM your engine is NOT boosting?
08-25-2004, 11:31 AM
#55
how often are you running the engine at 5000rpm in daily driving, guys?
for regular, daily driving, gas mileage usually isn't affected much, if at all.... because you're not boosting during 95% of your driving.
a properly tuned ECU and engine will be more efficient when off-boost, which translates to better fuel economy.
Now, that's theory. in reality most of us will be spending a lot of time having fun listening to the cool sounds of turbos spooling and tires melting, which will obviously kill gas mileage.
and just because you have a larger intake and exhaust DOES NOT MEAN YOU'RE PUMPING MORE AIR!
think about drinking out of a Mcdonald's straw compared to a little tiny one. you CAN suck more fluid easier through the larger straw.... but it's easier for you to suck the same low amount though- equate that to a difference in efficiency there, NOT to a difference in actual flow.
The turbo itself is more restrictive, but not a ton. also, the larger exhaust after the turbo is usually much more open, so the total resistance of the exhaust is likely lower than the factory stuff.
08-25-2004, 11:37 AM
#56
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
how often are you running the engine at 5000rpm in daily driving, guys?
for regular, daily driving, gas mileage usually isn't affected much, if at all.... because you're not boosting during 95% of your driving.
a properly tuned ECU and engine will be more efficient when off-boost, which translates to better fuel economy.
Now, that's theory. in reality most of us will be spending a lot of time having fun listening to the cool sounds of turbos spooling and tires melting, which will obviously kill gas mileage.
and just because you have a larger intake and exhaust DOES NOT MEAN YOU'RE PUMPING MORE AIR!
think about drinking out of a Mcdonald's straw compared to a little tiny one. you CAN suck more fluid easier through the larger straw.... but it's easier for you to suck the same low amount though- equate that to a difference in efficiency there, NOT to a difference in actual flow.
The turbo itself is more restrictive, but not a ton. also, the larger exhaust after the turbo is usually much more open, so the total resistance of the exhaust is likely lower than the factory stuff.
he said AT ANY RPM the car may not be boosting.
u seen my commute to work? i'm at redline all day long.
flow in the engine is controlled by the position of the throttle body plate.
do you agree with this statement? more air = more fuel?
who's talking about intake piping?? i can use a 6 inch pipe and air won't get into the engine if i don't hit the gas pedal. stop bringing in other variables into this. next thing you'll tell me is you can add 100 shot of NO2 into the combustion chamber w/o adding more fuel.
08-25-2004, 11:45 AM
#57
i bet you i can go out in my car and drive around at 5000 rpm and not be boosting.
a large thing you guys are leaving out is the load on the engine. say you aren't moving for instance. you are going to be hard pressed to get a turbo to spool at idle because it requires less fuel to rev the engine with no load than it does with a load.
this means that there is less fuel going through the engine at any rpm when the car is not moving compared to when it is moving.
now, i know you guys are talking about while driving. if i run it up to 5000 rpm at wot it will be boosting (by boosting i mean i am reading a positive intake manifold pressure). the minute i let off the throttle i won't be boosting. now, i can barely step on the throttle to keep the engine running 5000 rpm's and not be burning that much fuel and therefore i can keep the turbo from spooling. granted, if i barely accelerate at all the turbo would instantly spool at that high of rpm's.
a large thing you guys are leaving out is the load on the engine. say you aren't moving for instance. you are going to be hard pressed to get a turbo to spool at idle because it requires less fuel to rev the engine with no load than it does with a load.
this means that there is less fuel going through the engine at any rpm when the car is not moving compared to when it is moving.
now, i know you guys are talking about while driving. if i run it up to 5000 rpm at wot it will be boosting (by boosting i mean i am reading a positive intake manifold pressure). the minute i let off the throttle i won't be boosting. now, i can barely step on the throttle to keep the engine running 5000 rpm's and not be burning that much fuel and therefore i can keep the turbo from spooling. granted, if i barely accelerate at all the turbo would instantly spool at that high of rpm's.
08-25-2004, 11:49 AM
#58
run the car up to 5000rpm and hold it there in 1st or 2nd gear. I'm still pulling pretty good vacuum at that point. don't know exact numbers, but I am. if you're cruising at that speed, you probably won't be in boost range because of such a low throttle opening. if you're accelerating past it, you probably will. just because you're at xxxxrpm doesn't mean the turbo is spooled and boosting. it's a function of how much exhaust is going through the turbo. at high rpm and small throttle opening (your butterfly theory up there), there's still not much air flowing into the engine.. which means not much exhaust flowing out.. which means little or no boost...
YOUR daily driving is much different than most people's. mine is 0-50 stoplight to stoplight. if someone cuts me off, so be it.. you are 0-15-0-15-0-15-0-15. either full gas or full brake. completely different than my situation.
YOUR daily driving is much different than most people's. mine is 0-50 stoplight to stoplight. if someone cuts me off, so be it.. you are 0-15-0-15-0-15-0-15. either full gas or full brake. completely different than my situation.
08-25-2004, 12:08 PM
#59
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
run the car up to 5000rpm and hold it there in 1st or 2nd gear. I'm still pulling pretty good vacuum at that point. don't know exact numbers, but I am. if you're cruising at that speed, you probably won't be in boost range because of such a low throttle opening. if you're accelerating past it, you probably will. just because you're at xxxxrpm doesn't mean the turbo is spooled and boosting. it's a function of how much exhaust is going through the turbo. at high rpm and small throttle opening (your butterfly theory up there), there's still not much air flowing into the engine.. which means not much exhaust flowing out.. which means little or no boost...
YOUR daily driving is much different than most people's. mine is 0-50 stoplight to stoplight. if someone cuts me off, so be it.. you are 0-15-0-15-0-15-0-15. either full gas or full brake. completely different than my situation.
YOUR daily driving is much different than most people's. mine is 0-50 stoplight to stoplight. if someone cuts me off, so be it.. you are 0-15-0-15-0-15-0-15. either full gas or full brake. completely different than my situation.
I gotta agree with Matt. I could keep my friend's 3000GT VR4 at no boost at 4000+ RPMs as long as I kept the throttle nearly closed. As for the whole intake theory, well, a more efficient intake system creates a smaller pressure (energy) drop from the atmosphere to the intake manifold, which means the air has a higher energy when it enters the combustion chamber, regardless of how much goes in there. Its just thermodynamics.
08-25-2004, 12:10 PM
#60
my daily driving is 0-60, stop, 0-70, maybe pass a few people and that's about it until an hour later when i arrive in the city.
most of the driving around here is open highway driving with hardly anyone around and no big cities for at least a 45 minute driver. can be cool but can also kind of suck.
I'm sure you kind of experienced that a little bit, Matt, living down in OK. Seems to be a bit of a spread between towns/cities down there.
most of the driving around here is open highway driving with hardly anyone around and no big cities for at least a 45 minute driver. can be cool but can also kind of suck.
I'm sure you kind of experienced that a little bit, Matt, living down in OK. Seems to be a bit of a spread between towns/cities down there.
08-25-2004, 12:17 PM
#62
yeah, you can accelerate without boosting... it would just take a while to accelerate (depending on the turbo you have). if you have a small turbo it would be a bit more difficult to keep from spooling but if you have a bigger turbo it would take quite a bit of exhaust to spool.
08-25-2004, 12:41 PM
#64
Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 41
Originally Posted by CamryKilla
im kinda new to this turbo stuff, but if you have a manual...cant you acclerate slow and NOT shift and just run the rpms up to 5000 and not boost? You're accelerating real slow, why would it boost?
08-25-2004, 12:47 PM
#65
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
run the car up to 5000rpm and hold it there in 1st or 2nd gear. I'm still pulling pretty good vacuum at that point. don't know exact numbers, but I am. if you're cruising at that speed, you probably won't be in boost range because of such a low throttle opening. if you're accelerating past it, you probably will. just because you're at xxxxrpm doesn't mean the turbo is spooled and boosting. it's a function of how much exhaust is going through the turbo. at high rpm and small throttle opening (your butterfly theory up there), there's still not much air flowing into the engine.. which means not much exhaust flowing out.. which means little or no boost...
YOUR daily driving is much different than most people's. mine is 0-50 stoplight to stoplight. if someone cuts me off, so be it.. you are 0-15-0-15-0-15-0-15. either full gas or full brake. completely different than my situation.
YOUR daily driving is much different than most people's. mine is 0-50 stoplight to stoplight. if someone cuts me off, so be it.. you are 0-15-0-15-0-15-0-15. either full gas or full brake. completely different than my situation.
hey i'm not the only guy in the world driving in the city. it's 0-30 0-30....
but to get the up to 5000RPM..that takes fuel and air. goes back to what Mark said about acclerating and getting bad MPG because of the accleration.
to hold the engine at 5000RPM also requires air and fuel.
Matt answer these questions/assumptions.....
it's a good assumption that you use LESS gas when you shift at 2000RPM compared to shifting at 5000RPM?
it's also a good assumption that it takes MORE air for the engine to sustain 5000RPM than to stay at say....2000RPM?
safe to say more air = more fuel?
the amount of air boosting into the intake at a certain RPM is also based on turbo size and other variables.
if i have a super huge turbo...it might not give me positive pressure until say...3500RPM..but i'll haul **** at 6000RPM.
i might have a smaller turbo it might give me boost pressure at 2000RPM and die out at 4500-5000RPM.
08-25-2004, 01:43 PM
#69
Originally Posted by mtcookson
have all of the parts ready and you could... but lets not get into that. 
how long did it take u to figure out that the front bank and the rear bank didn't connect until past the T3 turbo flange? stuff like that.
08-25-2004, 01:43 PM
#70
Dan, you're correct on all of that... which is the same arguement I've been making for a while.
there's a difference between being at 5000rpm and being in boost.
If you drive the car normally, you won't be under boost much, if at all.. when you start boosting, you're cramming a lot more air into the engine, thus more fuel. you're also accelerating faster which means you reach cruising speed faster and let off the gas sooner when you get there. so there's a tradeoff at both ends.
but you're simply arguing that a turbo'd cer will have worse gas mileage than the same car without a turbo. that's not necessarily the case. it all depends on the situation, driving habits, and a zillion other factors.
BTW.. I just took a quick little trip to the gas station (to get gas for my mower, goober. we have this green stuff that grows on the ground out here in the sticks. we call it grass.. maybe you city folk have heard of it...
).. on my way there, I ran the car up to about 55mph. I stuck it in 5th gear. in order to maintain 55mph, I had to be at roughly 13mmHg on my gauge.. so I downshifted to 2nd... I was at 25mmHg on the gauge... my throttle position was actually farther closed in 2nd gear than it was at 5th gear.... .but I was running 3x the rpm... so again, there's tradeoffs. squirting in less gas per revolution, but more revs. use more gas per rev, but less revs.
we could go on all day, but it's a moot point.
there's a difference between being at 5000rpm and being in boost.
If you drive the car normally, you won't be under boost much, if at all.. when you start boosting, you're cramming a lot more air into the engine, thus more fuel. you're also accelerating faster which means you reach cruising speed faster and let off the gas sooner when you get there. so there's a tradeoff at both ends.
but you're simply arguing that a turbo'd cer will have worse gas mileage than the same car without a turbo. that's not necessarily the case. it all depends on the situation, driving habits, and a zillion other factors.
BTW.. I just took a quick little trip to the gas station (to get gas for my mower, goober. we have this green stuff that grows on the ground out here in the sticks. we call it grass.. maybe you city folk have heard of it...
).. on my way there, I ran the car up to about 55mph. I stuck it in 5th gear. in order to maintain 55mph, I had to be at roughly 13mmHg on my gauge.. so I downshifted to 2nd... I was at 25mmHg on the gauge... my throttle position was actually farther closed in 2nd gear than it was at 5th gear.... .but I was running 3x the rpm... so again, there's tradeoffs. squirting in less gas per revolution, but more revs. use more gas per rev, but less revs.we could go on all day, but it's a moot point.
08-25-2004, 01:46 PM
#71
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
Dan, you're correct on all of that... which is the same arguement I've been making for a while.
there's a difference between being at 5000rpm and being in boost.
If you drive the car normally, you won't be under boost much, if at all.. when you start boosting, you're cramming a lot more air into the engine, thus more fuel. you're also accelerating faster which means you reach cruising speed faster and let off the gas sooner when you get there. so there's a tradeoff at both ends.
but you're simply arguing that a turbo'd cer will have worse gas mileage than the same car without a turbo. that's not necessarily the case. it all depends on the situation, driving habits, and a zillion other factors.
BTW.. I just took a quick little trip to the gas station (to get gas for my mower, goober. we have this green stuff that grows on the ground out here in the sticks. we call it grass.. maybe you city folk have heard of it... ).. on my way there, I ran the car up to about 55mph. I stuck it in 5th gear. in order to maintain 55mph, I had to be at roughly 13mmHg on my gauge.. so I downshifted to 2nd... I was at 25mmHg on the gauge... my throttle position was actually farther closed in 2nd gear than it was at 5th gear.... .but I was running 3x the rpm... so again, there's tradeoffs. squirting in less gas per revolution, but more revs. use more gas per rev, but less revs.
we could go on all day, but it's a moot point.
there's a difference between being at 5000rpm and being in boost.
If you drive the car normally, you won't be under boost much, if at all.. when you start boosting, you're cramming a lot more air into the engine, thus more fuel. you're also accelerating faster which means you reach cruising speed faster and let off the gas sooner when you get there. so there's a tradeoff at both ends.
but you're simply arguing that a turbo'd cer will have worse gas mileage than the same car without a turbo. that's not necessarily the case. it all depends on the situation, driving habits, and a zillion other factors.
BTW.. I just took a quick little trip to the gas station (to get gas for my mower, goober. we have this green stuff that grows on the ground out here in the sticks. we call it grass.. maybe you city folk have heard of it...
).. on my way there, I ran the car up to about 55mph. I stuck it in 5th gear. in order to maintain 55mph, I had to be at roughly 13mmHg on my gauge.. so I downshifted to 2nd... I was at 25mmHg on the gauge... my throttle position was actually farther closed in 2nd gear than it was at 5th gear.... .but I was running 3x the rpm... so again, there's tradeoffs. squirting in less gas per revolution, but more revs. use more gas per rev, but less revs.we could go on all day, but it's a moot point.
when did you turbo your POS?
PICS?
08-25-2004, 02:02 PM
#73
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
who said I was turbo? 
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
BTW.. I just took a quick little trip to the gas station (to get gas for my mower, goober. we have this green stuff that grows on the ground out here in the sticks. we call it grass.. maybe you city folk have heard of it... ).. on my way there, I ran the car up to about 55mph. I stuck it in 5th gear. in order to maintain 55mph, I had to be at roughly 13mmHg on my gauge.. so I downshifted to 2nd... I was at 25mmHg on the gauge... my throttle position was actually farther closed in 2nd gear than it was at 5th gear.... .but I was running 3x the rpm... so again, there's tradeoffs. squirting in less gas per revolution, but more revs. use more gas per rev, but less revs.
).. on my way there, I ran the car up to about 55mph. I stuck it in 5th gear. in order to maintain 55mph, I had to be at roughly 13mmHg on my gauge.. so I downshifted to 2nd... I was at 25mmHg on the gauge... my throttle position was actually farther closed in 2nd gear than it was at 5th gear.... .but I was running 3x the rpm... so again, there's tradeoffs. squirting in less gas per revolution, but more revs. use more gas per rev, but less revs.
08-25-2004, 02:29 PM
#77
Originally Posted by DanNY
so you're rocking a boost gauge w/o anything boosting? 
Originally Posted by http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/211051/8
I'm sure you can guess from the gauges that I've installed what the next project is.
