Odd sound coming from clutch area
10-08-2004, 01:01 PM
#1
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Odd sound coming from clutch area
When my car is parked and in Neutral (std.) with the clutch pushed-in, I can only hear the engine running. However, when I let the clutch out it makes an odd sound - the best I can decribe it would be that it sounds like a large bearing spinning quickly that has sand in it? Not really a grinding sound, and not metalic in nature, but just dirty and worn sounding. This gets more pronounced as I drive too.
I was hoping that someone with a good working knowledge of the clutch/transmission/differential could suggest the probable cause of this? Any help would be appreciated at this point since the sound is beginning to drive me nuts.
I should also mention that the clutch itself doesn't seem to slip and doesn't have any 'chatter' either, and I have no trouble selecting gears.
I was hoping that someone with a good working knowledge of the clutch/transmission/differential could suggest the probable cause of this? Any help would be appreciated at this point since the sound is beginning to drive me nuts.
I should also mention that the clutch itself doesn't seem to slip and doesn't have any 'chatter' either, and I have no trouble selecting gears.
10-08-2004, 01:15 PM
#2
sounds like input shafe bearings on the tranny.
is it dripping any fluid yet? when the bearings really go bad, they cause the input shaft to wobble and it ruins the seal and will start leaking tranny fluid out of the bellhousing.
It's a very advanced DIY, but it can be done. folllow the service manual step by step, to the letter, and it's not difficult at all- just time consuming. took me about 4 hours to get mine apart, press new bearings in, and put it back together. about an 8 hour job from start to finish including pulling/installing the tranny.
http://mattblehm.com/pics/car/tranny/
is it dripping any fluid yet? when the bearings really go bad, they cause the input shaft to wobble and it ruins the seal and will start leaking tranny fluid out of the bellhousing.
It's a very advanced DIY, but it can be done. folllow the service manual step by step, to the letter, and it's not difficult at all- just time consuming. took me about 4 hours to get mine apart, press new bearings in, and put it back together. about an 8 hour job from start to finish including pulling/installing the tranny.
http://mattblehm.com/pics/car/tranny/
10-08-2004, 01:27 PM
#3
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Ah crap... I was hoping you'd reply Matt - thx. I have plenty of mechanical experience, but tearing into a trans is something I've never done. Would you recommend I make the attempt myself, or just pony-up the money to have someone else do it?
Btw - when you say you pressed the new bearing in yourself...., how much force is required? I ask cause I don't have a press or access to one, and I'm guessing you do.
So there's no doubt in your mind (given my explaination) that that's what it is? Couldn't be something cheaper or easier eh??
Btw - when you say you pressed the new bearing in yourself...., how much force is required? I ask cause I don't have a press or access to one, and I'm guessing you do.
So there's no doubt in your mind (given my explaination) that that's what it is? Couldn't be something cheaper or easier eh??
10-08-2004, 01:31 PM
#4
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Oh..., and no, I don't think I've been leaking trans fluid yet. This noise has been getting progressively worse for months now, so it's possible I suppose?
I can smell burning oil once in awhile, but a close engine inspection from under the car revealed a valve cover gasket with a slow leak - no biggie there.
I can smell burning oil once in awhile, but a close engine inspection from under the car revealed a valve cover gasket with a slow leak - no biggie there.
10-08-2004, 01:44 PM
#5
i second the input shaft bearing. 2 have gone out on me but i've had to deal with them 3 times. first time i pulled the tranny but it was too late... it was ran too long with the busted bearing and the input shaft shifted enough to break the metal that the throwout bearing slides on. so, i had to buy a tranny. 350 shipped from a salvage yard in new york. i get it, put it in... bearing is bad. so, i decided to take on the task of fixing it myself. 75 dollars later (www.drivetrain.com) i have a working transmission. at some point during or after the engine swap the bearing broke again so i'm driving on yet another broken input shaft bearing.
oh yeah... about forgot to mention that i have another tranny in my garage with yet another broken input shaft bearing. 4 bearings total... did i mention that i absolutely despise borg warner??
if you want to tackle the task of doing it, its actually not too hard. just be sure to follow the manual down to the letter and be absolutely sure you get all of the measurements right. the measurements will make or break a tranny rebuild.
you can get the parts from www.drivetrain.com or a full rebuild kit. you really need to take the tranny apart first and check all of your bearings to make sure the pieces from the input shaft bearing didn't score them at all. the differential carrier bearings got scored on my tranny so i had to replace those which extended the time it took to finish the tranny because i had to make a second order to get them.
basic run down of parts you'll need:
input shaft bearing
input shaft seal
axle seal left and right to be on the safe side
any bearing that got scored from the pieces of metal churning around in there.
luckily, they installed a magnet in there so any pieces that do break will stick to that but not before potentially going hitting some other stuff.
lastly, good luck!
oh yeah... about forgot to mention that i have another tranny in my garage with yet another broken input shaft bearing. 4 bearings total... did i mention that i absolutely despise borg warner??
if you want to tackle the task of doing it, its actually not too hard. just be sure to follow the manual down to the letter and be absolutely sure you get all of the measurements right. the measurements will make or break a tranny rebuild.
you can get the parts from www.drivetrain.com or a full rebuild kit. you really need to take the tranny apart first and check all of your bearings to make sure the pieces from the input shaft bearing didn't score them at all. the differential carrier bearings got scored on my tranny so i had to replace those which extended the time it took to finish the tranny because i had to make a second order to get them.
basic run down of parts you'll need:
input shaft bearing
input shaft seal
axle seal left and right to be on the safe side
any bearing that got scored from the pieces of metal churning around in there.
luckily, they installed a magnet in there so any pieces that do break will stick to that but not before potentially going hitting some other stuff.
lastly, good luck!
10-09-2004, 10:35 AM
#6
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Thx for the help guys - appreciate it. Once my buddy delivers my FSM to me, I'll look it over and decide whether I want to tackle a rebuild myself or if I'll just drop the tranny and replace it with one from the wreckers (or even my other car). Now I almost wish it was an axle... 
Oh well, what do you do - right?
Oh, one last question - when this bearing gets really bad and the shaft is worn, can it cause the car to pop out of 1st as you go to accelerate from a stop? I ask cause it did this twice to me last night after I initially posted this question. It's NEVER done that b4...
Oh well, what do you do - right?
Oh, one last question - when this bearing gets really bad and the shaft is worn, can it cause the car to pop out of 1st as you go to accelerate from a stop? I ask cause it did this twice to me last night after I initially posted this question. It's NEVER done that b4...
10-09-2004, 12:55 PM
#7
definitely sounds to me like input shaft bearings. they will gradually get louder and louder. usually only in the lower gears when the tranny is under load, but will get quieter when you're cruising/coasting.
If you can pull the tranny yourself and have a real FSM, I would say you can do the job. you will need a bearing separator tool, they're about $70 for a name brand one, but you can buy them for about $10 from Harbor Freight. you only need to use it a few times. you'll need one that will do up to a 3" bearing, as that's the largest ones on the input and main shaft.
same thing with the hydraulic press. I bought mine from Harbor for about $120, but they have smaller ones for about $80-100 that will to the job for this. no big deal there.
So why do these keep failing all the time?
When I got the new bearings from the dealer, I read the numbers on the side and looked up the specs on them. redline of 6500RPM on a VE, and the bearings are only rated for 5800-6200 RPM. That's of course a full-load rating and can handle higher RPM under lighter loads, but they simply aren't designed for sustained high rpm use like what many of us put through them. I take my car to the road course and in two hours of track time, I spend at least one hour of that above 5500rpm. on any given track day.
If you can pull the tranny yourself and have a real FSM, I would say you can do the job. you will need a bearing separator tool, they're about $70 for a name brand one, but you can buy them for about $10 from Harbor Freight. you only need to use it a few times. you'll need one that will do up to a 3" bearing, as that's the largest ones on the input and main shaft.
same thing with the hydraulic press. I bought mine from Harbor for about $120, but they have smaller ones for about $80-100 that will to the job for this. no big deal there.
So why do these keep failing all the time?
When I got the new bearings from the dealer, I read the numbers on the side and looked up the specs on them. redline of 6500RPM on a VE, and the bearings are only rated for 5800-6200 RPM. That's of course a full-load rating and can handle higher RPM under lighter loads, but they simply aren't designed for sustained high rpm use like what many of us put through them. I take my car to the road course and in two hours of track time, I spend at least one hour of that above 5500rpm. on any given track day.
10-11-2004, 02:18 PM
#8
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Thx again for your help Matt, I really appreciate it. The car has started to grind 1st and 'pop' out of first more and more now. I did a quick check on-line for wreckers in my area that had an 89-91 5-spd and couldn't find anything. So now I'm thinking I'll just yank the entire motor and trans from my silver car and swap it over to my black car, then scrap the silver one (it's pretty rough anyway...). The silver car has 120,000 LESS kms on the motor than the black car, so I figure why just take the trans? That, plus I already did the timing belt on the silver cars motor.
Any guesses on how long this should take me? Would you recommend removing the motors from the bottom or out through the top? I have an engine hoist, but I don't have a means to transport it anymore, and it's out in the sticks - stuck in a barn with my Chevelle - that's why I'm asking about lowering it out the bottom instead.
Also, I've removed and replaced (RR'd) axles b4, but that was ages ago. I remember my mechanic told me it was a good thing I decided to replace the clutch when I replaced my axles on the silver car cause (he said...) that there was no way to correctly replace just the axles without first removing the trans?? Any truth to this??
I'm guessing I'll need the following for this engine swap:
-large socket & puller for crank pulley (want to inspect timing belt just to be safe - might also replace tensioner and water pump this time since I didn't when I did the timing belt.
-transmission fluid
-antifreeze
-oil & filter
-drain pan (or 2)
-engine hoist (??)
-sockets
-breaker bar (pry bar)
-tie-rod splitter
-floor jacks
-ramps
I know I missed something...
Are there any specific bolts that I should watch out for that might not want to move without an air impact wrench?? For example, the engine support bolts, or the engine mount bolts?? Y-pipe to manifold bolts??
Any other suggestions on things I should take care of while I'm at it (assuming I can afford to do it)?
Any guesses on how long this should take me? Would you recommend removing the motors from the bottom or out through the top? I have an engine hoist, but I don't have a means to transport it anymore, and it's out in the sticks - stuck in a barn with my Chevelle - that's why I'm asking about lowering it out the bottom instead.
Also, I've removed and replaced (RR'd) axles b4, but that was ages ago. I remember my mechanic told me it was a good thing I decided to replace the clutch when I replaced my axles on the silver car cause (he said...) that there was no way to correctly replace just the axles without first removing the trans?? Any truth to this??
I'm guessing I'll need the following for this engine swap:
-large socket & puller for crank pulley (want to inspect timing belt just to be safe - might also replace tensioner and water pump this time since I didn't when I did the timing belt.
-transmission fluid
-antifreeze
-oil & filter
-drain pan (or 2)
-engine hoist (??)
-sockets
-breaker bar (pry bar)
-tie-rod splitter
-floor jacks
-ramps
I know I missed something...
Are there any specific bolts that I should watch out for that might not want to move without an air impact wrench?? For example, the engine support bolts, or the engine mount bolts?? Y-pipe to manifold bolts??
Any other suggestions on things I should take care of while I'm at it (assuming I can afford to do it)?
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