nitrogen in tires-better gas mileage
09-28-2005, 10:12 PM
#1
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nitrogen in tires-better gas mileage
today i received a flyer from a tire shop called Ganin tires. On it, it says they can put nitrogen in your tires for $5 each tire, it will improve your fuel economy.
has anyone heard of this before?
has anyone heard of this before?
09-28-2005, 10:21 PM
#2
i believe its supposed to keep the tires cooler which lowers "rolling resistance" so fuel economy will increase a little bit. other intersting things i've found about it is the tires are supposed to last a lot longer due to lower the heat (above) but also because oxygen is supposed to be able to permeate through the tire causing it to oxidize... or something along those lines.
basically in the end, there does seem to be some benefits of using nitrogen over regular air.... which consists of 78% nitrogen...
http://www.airliquide.com/en/medias/...es_filling.pdf
seems interesting though, i may actually try that sometime because i've never heard of it. if they do truly use it in F1 and the others then there should definitely be a good benefit.
basically in the end, there does seem to be some benefits of using nitrogen over regular air.... which consists of 78% nitrogen...
http://www.airliquide.com/en/medias/...es_filling.pdf
seems interesting though, i may actually try that sometime because i've never heard of it. if they do truly use it in F1 and the others then there should definitely be a good benefit.
09-28-2005, 10:35 PM
#3
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Originally Posted by Nmax92
today i received a flyer from a tire shop called Ganin tires. On it, it says they can put nitrogen in your tires for $5 each tire, it will improve your fuel economy.
has anyone heard of this before?
has anyone heard of this before?
09-28-2005, 10:56 PM
#5
I have nitrogen in the tires on my QX4 and it doesn't seem to get very good mpg. I will say that the pressure hasn't changed any from when I bought it until the last time I checked them about a week ago. Supposedly, your tires and wheels are less likely to corrode, along with the less leakage thing.
The rig came like that when I bought it. I don't think it's really worth $20 to put air in your tires.
I think Costco is cheaper for nitrogen, maybe free (or that could be only if you buy new tires). I think $5 per tire is the high end of the price range, though.
The rig came like that when I bought it. I don't think it's really worth $20 to put air in your tires.
I think Costco is cheaper for nitrogen, maybe free (or that could be only if you buy new tires). I think $5 per tire is the high end of the price range, though.
09-29-2005, 06:03 AM
#7
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ROTFL. Larger moleculas... An 'average' imaginary molecula of air is larger than a real molecula of nitrogen. Nitrogen is a tad lighter than air, but not enough to create any significant difference. Oxidation from outside is much worse than from inside, as there is ozone, sun light and pollutants on the outside of the tire. Myths, myths, myths...
We should expect to see many scams like that starting to circulate as the gas crisis continues in the US.
(good luck figuring if they really used N2 and not a good ol air!)
We should expect to see many scams like that starting to circulate as the gas crisis continues in the US.
(good luck figuring if they really used N2 and not a good ol air!)
09-29-2005, 12:40 PM
#10
Originally Posted by Tarzan
ROTFL. Larger moleculas... An 'average' imaginary molecula of air is larger than a real molecula of nitrogen. Nitrogen is a tad lighter than air, but not enough to create any significant difference. Oxidation from outside is much worse than from inside, as there is ozone, sun light and pollutants on the outside of the tire. Myths, myths, myths...
We should expect to see many scams like that starting to circulate as the gas crisis continues in the US.
(good luck figuring if they really used N2 and not a good ol air!)
We should expect to see many scams like that starting to circulate as the gas crisis continues in the US.
(good luck figuring if they really used N2 and not a good ol air!)
09-29-2005, 01:44 PM
#11
Originally Posted by mtcookson
if they use it in the military, F1, and such then most likely it does make a difference. if it didn't work, you wouldn't see them using it in such high end applications as those listed.
The speeds those wheels on the plane see plus the heat generated from the brakes on said planes is MUCH WORSE than you'd ever see on your Maxima. Plus, the temperature changes that occur when you are flying into the atmosphere vs being on the ground all the time are different too. Bottom line, for a passenger vehicle it is not worth the extra cost, IMHO. Find the thread about this in "wheels and tires", there was an excellent link debunking all these myths I see in this thread.
09-29-2005, 02:22 PM
#12
the biggest difference is the lack of moisture in the nitrogen. regular air compressor air has quite a bit of moisture in it, and that can cause wheels to corrode from the inside over years and years.
otherwise it's snake oil at best. meh.
otherwise it's snake oil at best. meh.
09-29-2005, 03:40 PM
#13
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Nitrogen is used in large construction equipment because of the reasons listed above.
1. It's lighter than air
2. It doesn't contain moisture
3. It actually keeps the tire cooler, some construction jobs the equipment moves around a lot, it helps reduce wear and tear on the tire. The hotter a tire is, the easier it is for damage to occur to it.
BTW... these are actually items listed in a Maintenace TO for a CAT front end loader.
1. It's lighter than air
2. It doesn't contain moisture
3. It actually keeps the tire cooler, some construction jobs the equipment moves around a lot, it helps reduce wear and tear on the tire. The hotter a tire is, the easier it is for damage to occur to it.
BTW... these are actually items listed in a Maintenace TO for a CAT front end loader.
09-29-2005, 07:56 PM
#16
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Originally Posted by Mizeree_X
The speeds those wheels on the plane see plus the heat generated from the brakes on said planes is MUCH WORSE than you'd ever see on your Maxima. Plus, the temperature changes that occur when you are flying into the atmosphere vs being on the ground all the time are different too. Bottom line, for a passenger vehicle it is not worth the extra cost, IMHO. Find the thread about this in "wheels and tires", there was an excellent link debunking all these myths I see in this thread.
09-29-2005, 11:11 PM
#18
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Originally Posted by kcidmil
... a lot of our construction equipment uses it as well.
This gasSing must be/become important industry because driving is so cheap in US: there has to be a 'emergency pressure valve' for drivers to unload excess money... For tho$e in urgent need, try argon.
Btw. U know this better, but jet utilization does not come from mpg requirements. And if pilot leaves bubblegums home, weight reduction is greater? If used, I would think main points would be the already mentioned: lack of oxygen (aggressive reactant), and b/c of that, also non flammability, and heat related properties. Mpg was the main salespoint ?for maximas, if I've understood right.
Another issue is how u make it: take oxygen out of air (zero=0.00 cents), sell it compressed to industrial purposes, reap huge profit$, 0.05$ per unit. Now take the leftover waste nitrogen (zero=0.00 cents), sell it to less fortunate maxima owners for 5.0$ per unit...
Hmm. Next Helium. What did Phasta use when his wheels went on top...
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=431036
09-30-2005, 07:43 AM
#19
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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They use oil additives in military, that allow a tank with a completely damaged oil pan and drained oil still move around and fire. Some jerks tried to sell those additives to the public under the slogan that they would add life to the engines.
The F1 tires is a different story altogether from the temperature they reach perspective and speeds etc. If nitrogen make a difference in them, does not mean that it would make any difference in passenger cars.
Nitrogen might be great, but looking at the gas prices, I would expect to see more offerings of gas savings with questionable qualities. This is for sure one of them.
The F1 tires is a different story altogether from the temperature they reach perspective and speeds etc. If nitrogen make a difference in them, does not mean that it would make any difference in passenger cars.
Nitrogen might be great, but looking at the gas prices, I would expect to see more offerings of gas savings with questionable qualities. This is for sure one of them.
Originally Posted by mtcookson
if they use it in the military, F1, and such then most likely it does make a difference. if it didn't work, you wouldn't see them using it in such high end applications as those listed.
09-30-2005, 09:59 AM
#20
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In F1 it makes sense to spend $20 to lighten the car a few ounces.
In your maxima, you could take the pennies out from under your parking brake and save more weight than putting N2 in your tires.
Now I'm sure putting N2 in your tires will save on gas... but will it save you more than $20 on gas?
In your maxima, you could take the pennies out from under your parking brake and save more weight than putting N2 in your tires.
Now I'm sure putting N2 in your tires will save on gas... but will it save you more than $20 on gas?
09-30-2005, 10:05 AM
#21
Well guys only one way to find out, and that is to put it to the test... I notice someone has Nitrogen on their QX4 and says no good MPG but hasnt leaked since he got it. How about someone that has regular air tries it out?
Hell I'll do it, my friend works at Costco plus I'm getting freakin 14.5 MPG and my maxi is runnin rich. Lets see if I can break the 15mpg barrier.
Hell I'll do it, my friend works at Costco plus I'm getting freakin 14.5 MPG and my maxi is runnin rich. Lets see if I can break the 15mpg barrier.
09-30-2005, 10:31 AM
#23
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Originally Posted by ColombianMax
Well guys only one way to find out, and that is to put it to the test... I notice someone has Nitrogen on their QX4 and says no good MPG but hasnt leaked since he got it. How about someone that has regular air tries it out?
Hell I'll do it, my friend works at Costco plus I'm getting freakin 14.5 MPG and my maxi is runnin rich. Lets see if I can break the 15mpg barrier.
Hell I'll do it, my friend works at Costco plus I'm getting freakin 14.5 MPG and my maxi is runnin rich. Lets see if I can break the 15mpg barrier.
But you'll have to tell us how much it costs (even if your friend hooks you up). If you get 15 MPG w/ N2, you'll be saving 17/25ths of a cent per mile! (with $3/gal computation. if it's more in your area, you'll save even more!)
That's also 9 extra miles per tank*, a savings of $1.84 per full tank. So if the pressure in your tires lasts more than 10.87 full tanks of gas, you'll save more than the $20** it cost to put N2 in your tires.
*All "full" tanks assumed to be 18 U.S. Gal. For computational purposes, all 18 gallons were depleted prior to fill-up.
**Tax excluded in all computations. All monetary amounts are represented in US Dollars.
09-30-2005, 11:43 AM
#25
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
try fixing the poor mileage problems with a proper tuneup and repair than to band-aid it with snake oil like overinflating your tires with nitrogen.
09-30-2005, 11:46 AM
#26
Originally Posted by redSeraph
Excellent Idea.
But you'll have to tell us how much it costs (even if your friend hooks you up). If you get 15 MPG w/ N2, you'll be saving 17/25ths of a cent per mile! (with $3/gal computation. if it's more in your area, you'll save even more!)
That's also 9 extra miles per tank*, a savings of $1.84 per full tank. So if the pressure in your tires lasts more than 10.87 full tanks of gas, you'll save more than the $20** it cost to put N2 in your tires.
*All "full" tanks assumed to be 18 U.S. Gal. For computational purposes, all 18 gallons were depleted prior to fill-up.
**Tax excluded in all computations. All monetary amounts are represented in US Dollars.
But you'll have to tell us how much it costs (even if your friend hooks you up). If you get 15 MPG w/ N2, you'll be saving 17/25ths of a cent per mile! (with $3/gal computation. if it's more in your area, you'll save even more!)
That's also 9 extra miles per tank*, a savings of $1.84 per full tank. So if the pressure in your tires lasts more than 10.87 full tanks of gas, you'll save more than the $20** it cost to put N2 in your tires.
*All "full" tanks assumed to be 18 U.S. Gal. For computational purposes, all 18 gallons were depleted prior to fill-up.
**Tax excluded in all computations. All monetary amounts are represented in US Dollars.
The first day I got my car I put in $43 USD giving me 13.something gallons of BP Premium...lasted me 2-3days I think I drove around 190-200 miles with that tank dont remember..
09-30-2005, 11:58 AM
#27
then you still have issues.. O2 sensor? ignition timing? vacuum leak? bad MAFS? clogged cat?
you have lots of things it could be, but the only time I get 15mpg is when I'm beating the crap out of the car.
you have lots of things it could be, but the only time I get 15mpg is when I'm beating the crap out of the car.
09-30-2005, 07:29 PM
#31
Originally Posted by puna2k
Try this, For every 10 gallons of gas and 3 onces of Acetone. I heard it will increase by 5-13 mpgs. But I wont do it to my car, I heard this for a volvo tech.
And will most likely destroy the injectors fairly quickly....
09-30-2005, 11:50 PM
#33
The only point of using nitrogen is that it is not affected by temperature changes like oxygen. Temperature goes up or down, pressure stays the same. They use nitrogen to fill aircraft tires for this very reason, since when the climb to high altitudes, the temperature decreases rapidly, and the tires do not have a chance to warm up before landing. Nitrogen is also free of moisture, which helps prevent corrosion on steel rims. No benifit milage wise, unless you never check your tire pressure, you might go a bit longer before it starts to get low, but then you have bigger issues to worry about it you can't even check your damn tire pressure on a regular basis. 
10-01-2005, 09:51 AM
#34
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 212
Originally Posted by Tarzan
ROTFL. Larger moleculas... An 'average' imaginary molecula of air is larger than a real molecula of nitrogen. Nitrogen is a tad lighter than air, but not enough to create any significant difference. Oxidation from outside is much worse than from inside, as there is ozone, sun light and pollutants on the outside of the tire. Myths, myths, myths...
We should expect to see many scams like that starting to circulate as the gas crisis continues in the US.
(good luck figuring if they really used N2 and not a good ol air!)
We should expect to see many scams like that starting to circulate as the gas crisis continues in the US.
(good luck figuring if they really used N2 and not a good ol air!)
I agree with you. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but gram-molecular weight of Nitrogen (N2) is 28g/mol.
Is nitogen significantly heavier than air?
Air is 78% Nitrogen, which means it is same weight, and then rest I presume is mostly Oxygen (O2) and Carbon Dioxide(CO2)?
Oxygen is 32g/mol and CO2 is 44g/mol, both heavier than nitrogen.
Gram's law of effusion states that lighter gases diffuse/effuse faster.
but would the weight make significant difference?
Looking strictly from molecular size standpoint:
Assuming three atoms mostly compose of air (C, N, and O):
Atomic radii DECREASES as one moves across the periodic table from left to right (due to lack of electron shielding effect vs. inc in nuclear charge).
Since C, N, O are placed in per. table from left to right, the only atom that is bigger than Nitrogen is Carbon.
Both N and O are Diatomic in nature, and C is found as CO2. Now looking at the sizes:
N2 is actually smaller than CO2 (diatomic molecule vs. three atoms of CO2).
In comparison of N2 to O2,
N2 is two atoms of N held by a triple bond, while O2 is two atoms of O held by a double bond. Bond distance is inversely proportional to bond size, meaning triple bond of N2 will be shorter than double bond of O2. I am thinking that although Nitron atom has larger atomic radii than Oxygen atom, the shorter bond distance of N2 vs. O2 will make that point mute.
In the end, I really don't see how 100% nitrogen will be "larger" molecules than air.
I believe that nitrogen is used to archival purposes because it does not react with acids in book pages and so it keeps them preserved.
We use 100% nitrogen in our lab to dry out small glass vials because it does not react with anything, and it's closest to regular air...
I agree that I think it's pure snake oil...
10-01-2005, 11:23 PM
#37
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Originally Posted by mtcookson
hell, even if it doesn't increase gas mileage but if it lowers tire wear at all, i'd spend the money for it. tires aren't cheap.
10-03-2005, 12:53 PM
#39
Originally Posted by ColombianMax
Well guys only one way to find out, and that is to put it to the test... I notice someone has Nitrogen on their QX4 and says no good MPG but hasnt leaked since he got it. How about someone that has regular air tries it out?
Hell I'll do it, my friend works at Costco plus I'm getting freakin 14.5 MPG and my maxi is runnin rich. Lets see if I can break the 15mpg barrier.
Hell I'll do it, my friend works at Costco plus I'm getting freakin 14.5 MPG and my maxi is runnin rich. Lets see if I can break the 15mpg barrier.
Ok getting to the point. I talked to my friend and he went to the tire dept at costco and gave his cellphone to one of them guys there and I personally asked him what were the differences and advantages about nitrogen and he said everything that you guys posted here, I dont quite know how much it costs to do it but he told me to go in on Thursday and he'll fill my tires up at no charge
So summary for the lazy and for whoever is in a rush:
IACV adjusted = from 14mpg to 19.6 mpg
Gettin nitrogen in my tires on thursday for free, yes I will be testing for MPG increase afterward.
Yes I will get the price of nitrogen per tire for those who wanted to know.
10-07-2005, 11:33 AM
#40
Well finally got Nitrogen in my tires last night, they told me I should notice a difference right away. I got 24 MPG city last night before I went to get more gas, although that MPG was before I got Nitrogen, wonder what its gonna be now that I have it. I asked about the price and they said that they usually just hook people up, but I dont know about any other costco.
Have fun! let me know if any of you go for it and how its working out for you
Have fun! let me know if any of you go for it and how its working out for you