EDU: Control arm replacement...
Originally Posted by internetautomar
Personally I won't bother running any sort of urethane bushing. I did 100 + on the highway with traffic and manuevered just fine on the STOCK RUBBER bushings.
on another board I'm a member of we had a long discussion of the pros and cons of running rubber vs a urethane bushing. basically it came down to if you were beating the car hard enough you go to rod ends or del-a-lum for bushings (obviously we weren't talking about a maxima).
oh, and BVtran, if I could afford to put 1000 bushing sets (@$143 per set) in my garage you think I'd still be driving a 92 maxima that could use a paint job?
on another board I'm a member of we had a long discussion of the pros and cons of running rubber vs a urethane bushing. basically it came down to if you were beating the car hard enough you go to rod ends or del-a-lum for bushings (obviously we weren't talking about a maxima).
oh, and BVtran, if I could afford to put 1000 bushing sets (@$143 per set) in my garage you think I'd still be driving a 92 maxima that could use a paint job?
back to the control arm write-up topic: don't know about cuttin' the gusset bushing but the way i did it was just jack up the car high enough where u can twist the control arm down just to c if front bushing breaks loose along with rubber instead of cutting the rubber and slide it out and then cut the metal gusset piece. that was my way of doing it and they both came off without cutting anything. if the bending down part doesn't work then cut away if u must.
Originally Posted by bvtran
Matt, I respect your opinion but your contradicting yourself here since you're kinda guy that always insisting on doing "the job right". Noltec is the way to go. Face it, you really had me persuaded on this mantra. So everything that I do, I always insisting on doing it right.
Yes, I have used ES bushings. Not control arm equivalent but others such as sway bars, etc.. I can attest to you they're hard as plastic not rubber soft quality. Noltec has always been true rubber replacement for me + the benefit of polyurethane.
Now regarding that ES bushing we must modify to fit the control arm. First of all, it wasn't engineered for control arm. I don't know what was it originally designed for. The flat end one side told me that it wasn't engineered for front control arm as most cars has round tubular shape. Secondly, different application-specific bushes have different tensile strength. You simply could not trust some other application bush, then install on the front end and expect the same results. That doesn't necessary mean these ES bushes will fail since none of us knew their engineering aspect. That's why OE or OE replacement are preferred if you want to get the "job right" as you kept on insisting.
Now as far as the price goes, Noltec used to sell both front and back for $100 for both sides SH. I have no ideas why they raised price. It seems like everyone are doing that. Regardless of Noltec prices, I could tell you is that using ES bushings will cost you more money. Trying to cut out ES into tubular shape then expect to press it in properly, you will need to use a press. Most place will charge you around $20 per press each way. So you already talking about $100 on a minimum for an unnecessary labor alone. The point of doing this job alone was so you could have the pleasure of doing it for fun and saving money, not to have someone else finish the job for you. Now if you wanna talk price, then put them to numerical perspective. A pair of front Noltec bushes will cost around $50 SH. I don't recommend buying noltec back bushes since they're so darn expensive so you can get them from the dealer for around $30 per pair if you that's what you need. With Noltec, you're only spending a total of $80 and do it all yourself using a simple hammer/bolt on method that shouldn't take no more than 2hrs (assuming you had experiences) + you get the best performance ever. Again, most people here like yourself and Brian haven't used Noltec yet so you can't attest that but I can. Whereas with ES bushings, it will cost you $40 Shipped + $30 for back bushes from the dealer + $100 for press + gas fees/SH depending on how you get to the press shop + several days of waiting if you have to mail them in for pressing. Realistically, you're talking about the getting the job done right with Noltec at only $80 vs $170 on some half ask job that don't guarantee.
Then again, more power to you if you can get away with all these expensive methods thru using ES bushes route.
Yes, I have used ES bushings. Not control arm equivalent but others such as sway bars, etc.. I can attest to you they're hard as plastic not rubber soft quality. Noltec has always been true rubber replacement for me + the benefit of polyurethane.
Now regarding that ES bushing we must modify to fit the control arm. First of all, it wasn't engineered for control arm. I don't know what was it originally designed for. The flat end one side told me that it wasn't engineered for front control arm as most cars has round tubular shape. Secondly, different application-specific bushes have different tensile strength. You simply could not trust some other application bush, then install on the front end and expect the same results. That doesn't necessary mean these ES bushes will fail since none of us knew their engineering aspect. That's why OE or OE replacement are preferred if you want to get the "job right" as you kept on insisting.
Now as far as the price goes, Noltec used to sell both front and back for $100 for both sides SH. I have no ideas why they raised price. It seems like everyone are doing that. Regardless of Noltec prices, I could tell you is that using ES bushings will cost you more money. Trying to cut out ES into tubular shape then expect to press it in properly, you will need to use a press. Most place will charge you around $20 per press each way. So you already talking about $100 on a minimum for an unnecessary labor alone. The point of doing this job alone was so you could have the pleasure of doing it for fun and saving money, not to have someone else finish the job for you. Now if you wanna talk price, then put them to numerical perspective. A pair of front Noltec bushes will cost around $50 SH. I don't recommend buying noltec back bushes since they're so darn expensive so you can get them from the dealer for around $30 per pair if you that's what you need. With Noltec, you're only spending a total of $80 and do it all yourself using a simple hammer/bolt on method that shouldn't take no more than 2hrs (assuming you had experiences) + you get the best performance ever. Again, most people here like yourself and Brian haven't used Noltec yet so you can't attest that but I can. Whereas with ES bushings, it will cost you $40 Shipped + $30 for back bushes from the dealer + $100 for press + gas fees/SH depending on how you get to the press shop + several days of waiting if you have to mail them in for pressing. Realistically, you're talking about the getting the job done right with Noltec at only $80 vs $170 on some half ask job that don't guarantee.
Then again, more power to you if you can get away with all these expensive methods thru using ES bushes route.
The ES bushings to use for the 3gen are in fact front control arm bushings for a 4th gen. all 2nd through 5th gens use the exact same front bushing, and the rear is only slightly different in shape. the control arm design, size, and basic geometry are all the same. since the front bushing is the same for both cars, the only thing you have to do is trim a bit of excess poly off the rear bushing to make it fit into the 3 gen mount since the 4gen mount is a tiny bit bigger..
Pressing things in? You need to do a bit more studying (again). The ES bushings press in using either hand pressure or basic hand tools (Channel locks at the worst)
Buying the rear bushings from the dealer? Again, you need to do some research before you post. The ES bushings set is a FULL set of control arm bushings. two front, two rear.
As much as I insist on doing the job right, this is a case that given a couple minutes of forethought and proper measuring, anyone can do the job right using ONLY HAND TOOLS (read that again. HAND TOOLS. no press required....) and save themselves a considerable amount of money. Your total outlay for the full set of control arm bushings is $40, shipped to your door. no external labor, machining, or pressing required.
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
You need to do a bit more research before you try to argue..
The ES bushings to use for the 3gen are in fact front control arm bushings for a 4th gen. all 2nd through 5th gens use the exact same front bushing, and the rear is only slightly different in shape. the control arm design, size, and basic geometry are all the same. since the front bushing is the same for both cars, the only thing you have to do is trim a bit of excess poly off the rear bushing to make it fit into the 3 gen mount since the 4gen mount is a tiny bit bigger..
Pressing things in? You need to do a bit more studying (again). The ES bushings press in using either hand pressure or basic hand tools (Channel locks at the worst)
Buying the rear bushings from the dealer? Again, you need to do some research before you post. The ES bushings set is a FULL set of control arm bushings. two front, two rear.
As much as I insist on doing the job right, this is a case that given a couple minutes of forethought and proper measuring, anyone can do the job right using ONLY HAND TOOLS (read that again. HAND TOOLS. no press required....) and save themselves a considerable amount of money. Your total outlay for the full set of control arm bushings is $40, shipped to your door. no external labor, machining, or pressing required.
The ES bushings to use for the 3gen are in fact front control arm bushings for a 4th gen. all 2nd through 5th gens use the exact same front bushing, and the rear is only slightly different in shape. the control arm design, size, and basic geometry are all the same. since the front bushing is the same for both cars, the only thing you have to do is trim a bit of excess poly off the rear bushing to make it fit into the 3 gen mount since the 4gen mount is a tiny bit bigger..
Pressing things in? You need to do a bit more studying (again). The ES bushings press in using either hand pressure or basic hand tools (Channel locks at the worst)
Buying the rear bushings from the dealer? Again, you need to do some research before you post. The ES bushings set is a FULL set of control arm bushings. two front, two rear.
As much as I insist on doing the job right, this is a case that given a couple minutes of forethought and proper measuring, anyone can do the job right using ONLY HAND TOOLS (read that again. HAND TOOLS. no press required....) and save themselves a considerable amount of money. Your total outlay for the full set of control arm bushings is $40, shipped to your door. no external labor, machining, or pressing required.
btw, part of my suggestion in the few previous post Polyurethane bushes weren't the only one I suggested. I also suggested getting new a pair of ebay arms with new ball joints and bushes for around $125 shipped. Polyurethane should only be considered if your really serious about suspension. If you're really that serious then you might as well go for Noltec. It's guaranteed easy installation and performance proven.
Then fine if you're going to compare to your argument, it will be $80 vs $40 but you still get guaranteed easy installation and great performance. It's only $40 more and you get to do the job right.
You still don't understand.
1. The instructions on my website didn't say **** about reusing the old inner sleeve, except as a tool to remove the rest of the old bushing. how would reusing the old sleeve affect your camber and caster settings anyway? explain in engineering terms, not the random nonsense you're using now.
2. Read the ES bushing installations, not mine. The instructions on my faq page are specifically to replace the stock bushings and mention nothing about the ES bushings.
3. The ES bushings don't use an outer sleeve. you remove the old factory one and use your hands to mash the ES bushing into its place. this small difference between the ES and the OE bushing completely negates the need for a press for any part of the installation.
4. Since you don't need a hydraulic press at all, the install is (yet again) easier than the Noltec bushings. It can be done by anyone with basic hand tools.
5. It doesn't screw up your camber and caster settings if you spend 2 minutes to make some measurements of the stock rear bushing before you cut. and how the fudge would reusing that part screw up your alignment anyway? http://blehmco.com/faq/es_modified_bushing.jpg
cutting these bushings voids the warranty? what warranty? the one covering a $30 aftermarket part on your 15 yr old car? what's the point?!
6. Price.. remember, you're only replacing the front bushings with Noltec. the soft bushings provide a nice compliant ride, but they don't help with the performance much. the point in the harder poly bushings is to reduce the unwanted suspension deflection during cornering, which adversely affects your alignment. The softer bushings allow the arm to move in relation to the rest of the car, which causes positive camber gain on hard cornering- that's the LAST thing you want.
Also remember the ES bushing set replaces all four bushings. in order to properly do the job, you MUST replace the rear bushings too. Add that into your price. Also add the part where you have to press in the Noltec bushings.
7. replacement Ebay arms. this goes back to your warranty issue, as well as the quality of said parts. you contend that the Noltec parts are the only thing decent out there, then you say to buy some cheap, aftermarket, Made in China (no offense, Brian) control arms with non-name ball joints and thinner-than-OE steel to make up the arm. the quality simply isn't there between these ebay arms and OEM. Which is why I recommend rebuilding the OE ones rather than replacing the arms with cheaply made aftermarket.
Again... you need to actually look at the ES setup before you comment any more on it. you're just digging your hole deeper and deeper by arguing.
1. The instructions on my website didn't say **** about reusing the old inner sleeve, except as a tool to remove the rest of the old bushing. how would reusing the old sleeve affect your camber and caster settings anyway? explain in engineering terms, not the random nonsense you're using now.
2. Read the ES bushing installations, not mine. The instructions on my faq page are specifically to replace the stock bushings and mention nothing about the ES bushings.
3. The ES bushings don't use an outer sleeve. you remove the old factory one and use your hands to mash the ES bushing into its place. this small difference between the ES and the OE bushing completely negates the need for a press for any part of the installation.
4. Since you don't need a hydraulic press at all, the install is (yet again) easier than the Noltec bushings. It can be done by anyone with basic hand tools.
5. It doesn't screw up your camber and caster settings if you spend 2 minutes to make some measurements of the stock rear bushing before you cut. and how the fudge would reusing that part screw up your alignment anyway? http://blehmco.com/faq/es_modified_bushing.jpg
cutting these bushings voids the warranty? what warranty? the one covering a $30 aftermarket part on your 15 yr old car? what's the point?!
6. Price.. remember, you're only replacing the front bushings with Noltec. the soft bushings provide a nice compliant ride, but they don't help with the performance much. the point in the harder poly bushings is to reduce the unwanted suspension deflection during cornering, which adversely affects your alignment. The softer bushings allow the arm to move in relation to the rest of the car, which causes positive camber gain on hard cornering- that's the LAST thing you want.
Also remember the ES bushing set replaces all four bushings. in order to properly do the job, you MUST replace the rear bushings too. Add that into your price. Also add the part where you have to press in the Noltec bushings.
7. replacement Ebay arms. this goes back to your warranty issue, as well as the quality of said parts. you contend that the Noltec parts are the only thing decent out there, then you say to buy some cheap, aftermarket, Made in China (no offense, Brian) control arms with non-name ball joints and thinner-than-OE steel to make up the arm. the quality simply isn't there between these ebay arms and OEM. Which is why I recommend rebuilding the OE ones rather than replacing the arms with cheaply made aftermarket.
Again... you need to actually look at the ES setup before you comment any more on it. you're just digging your hole deeper and deeper by arguing.
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 237
From: Sydney, Australia
I'm with Matt on this one. There is nothing wrong with stating your preference but it's another thing to then go as far as suggesting that Energy Suspension are producing junk in comparison. Perhaps they're not to your satisfaction but that doesn't make it a crummy choice either.
As I have the advantage of living in Australia, getting the goods isn't a problem for me but pricewise, I'm replacing all the bushings in my Max because they never have been to this very day (yet the ride is still pretty damn tight for a car on 15 year old rubber)! The only OEM rubbers I'm getting in the entire ensemble are for the steering rack and strut towers because there is nothing aftermarket that I could find down here. That's no big deal in my book. If need be, I'll seek out something from your neck of the woods instead. Even then, I'm debating whether or not I choose the Noltec over the ES bushings for reasons I'll explain later.
That said though, whether I buy the Nolethane (red in colour) or the Noltec (blue in colour) brands, they're pretty much on par in terms of cost ... some AUD$600 for the Noltec stuff alone. The control arm bushings are around AUD$60 each kit, that being a control arm inner front kit and control arm inner rear kit (2 pieces per kit). Not sure where you got the US$43 for both sides or which sides you're referring to for that matter but the entire control arm set will be US$86 going on the prices you've come across, not all that far off from what I'm getting them here.
Personally, I have heard that the ES bushings are actually harder compared to the Noltec brand and for my style of driving, they're probably the better approach. Again, it's just one of those things I'll have to do my homework on but chances are, I'll just experiment with the Noltec stuff first since it's available locally and if I find that it's not doing the job I'd like or that I can definitely go better through trial and error, I'll be getting in the ES stuff and modifying them to fit accordingly. A little customisation is what it takes sometimes to get the winning formula.
Ultimately, the point I'm getting at is, don't try to force your ideas as it appears in your posts at the moment. As for not modifying anything you purchase, you're modifying your car and that's part of the fun. Enjoy.
As I have the advantage of living in Australia, getting the goods isn't a problem for me but pricewise, I'm replacing all the bushings in my Max because they never have been to this very day (yet the ride is still pretty damn tight for a car on 15 year old rubber)! The only OEM rubbers I'm getting in the entire ensemble are for the steering rack and strut towers because there is nothing aftermarket that I could find down here. That's no big deal in my book. If need be, I'll seek out something from your neck of the woods instead. Even then, I'm debating whether or not I choose the Noltec over the ES bushings for reasons I'll explain later.
That said though, whether I buy the Nolethane (red in colour) or the Noltec (blue in colour) brands, they're pretty much on par in terms of cost ... some AUD$600 for the Noltec stuff alone. The control arm bushings are around AUD$60 each kit, that being a control arm inner front kit and control arm inner rear kit (2 pieces per kit). Not sure where you got the US$43 for both sides or which sides you're referring to for that matter but the entire control arm set will be US$86 going on the prices you've come across, not all that far off from what I'm getting them here.
Personally, I have heard that the ES bushings are actually harder compared to the Noltec brand and for my style of driving, they're probably the better approach. Again, it's just one of those things I'll have to do my homework on but chances are, I'll just experiment with the Noltec stuff first since it's available locally and if I find that it's not doing the job I'd like or that I can definitely go better through trial and error, I'll be getting in the ES stuff and modifying them to fit accordingly. A little customisation is what it takes sometimes to get the winning formula.
Ultimately, the point I'm getting at is, don't try to force your ideas as it appears in your posts at the moment. As for not modifying anything you purchase, you're modifying your car and that's part of the fun. Enjoy.
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,871
From: IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO CARES!!
I am still waiting on the bushings so the modification should be easy no problem with that just some time and some creativity. I was thinking if i should go ahead and take out that outer sleeve in the control arm and i had read the thread with the drawing talking about the outer sleeve should come out and if so would my new bushings come with the outer sleeves or just the bushings as the pic was shown in red. thanks.
Originally Posted by ColombianMax
I still think its easier, faster and less work to heat the sleeve up with a torch and just pull it off with vice grips
Propane torch? Light that **** up and let it burn for a few min. The rubber should turn into goo and the inner bushing should almost fall out. I just usually direct the heat at the inner bushing itself. The metal gets hot enough to melt the rubber holding it. Then just push it out with whatever. I just pry it out with a huge screw driver or whatever.
Originally Posted by MyGreenMax94
I tried this method on a previous c/a job,it didn't work..
Yeah,propane,i used the melting precedure before,i just didn't like it,it was messy/smoky/rubber caught on fire.
I also heated the metal sleeve up good,then tried to twist it off with some vise grips,i wouldn't move...so i cut it off..
I also heated the metal sleeve up good,then tried to twist it off with some vise grips,i wouldn't move...so i cut it off..
Originally Posted by Jeff92se
Propane torch? Light that **** up and let it burn for a few min. The rubber should turn into goo and the inner bushing should almost fall out. I just usually direct the heat at the inner bushing itself. The metal gets hot enough to melt the rubber holding it. Then just push it out with whatever. I just pry it out with a huge screw driver or whatever.
The big issue I see with the inner sleeve stuck on the control arm is that you have to get almost all of the rubber off the sleeve before it will really get hot. usually I use the torch and a pair of channel locks to just scrape, grind, and burn the rubber off... once it's pretty clean, then I cook it with a torch for about 3-4 minutes, THEN I start twisting on it with the channel locks.
it's pretty hard to move at first, but if you twist and pull while you're still torching it, it'll get pretty easy after a turn or two and you can usually drop the torch and get it off with just the pliers after that.
I haven't had one yet I had to take a grinder to.
it's pretty hard to move at first, but if you twist and pull while you're still torching it, it'll get pretty easy after a turn or two and you can usually drop the torch and get it off with just the pliers after that.
I haven't had one yet I had to take a grinder to.
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
7. replacement Ebay arms. this goes back to your warranty issue, as well as the quality of said parts. you contend that the Noltec parts are the only thing decent out there, then you say to buy some cheap, aftermarket, Made in China (no offense, Brian) control arms with non-name ball joints and thinner-than-OE steel to make up the arm. the quality simply isn't there between these ebay arms and OEM. Which is why I recommend rebuilding the OE ones rather than replacing the arms with cheaply made aftermarket.
The ones I'm selling now I've had 0 problems with, John has 1 on his car, and I've sold quite a few to local shops and they've had no issues.
OTOH the ones I was selling last year were having some issues intermittently.
Originally Posted by internetautomar
None taken, There are some cheap Chinese arms out there, and there are some OE quality ones out there. It's hard to tell whose you are getting until you actually receive them.
The ones I'm selling now I've had 0 problems with, John has 1 on his car, and I've sold quite a few to local shops and they've had no issues.
OTOH the ones I was selling last year were having some issues intermittently.
The ones I'm selling now I've had 0 problems with, John has 1 on his car, and I've sold quite a few to local shops and they've had no issues.
OTOH the ones I was selling last year were having some issues intermittently.
Originally Posted by internetautomar
can't tell you. I told you I had 1 in stock, and 1 I got from the warehouse. I don't remember which one is which.
Originally Posted by ColombianMax
It's ok they're both doing good so far, At least if one goes bad before the other one I'll know which one is which because one has a grease fittin on the BJ and the other one didnt.
the answer based on how i read the question:
because the sleeve is supposed to be part of the bushing (ie, all new bushings come with the sleeve nice and tightly held in the center of the rubber) but when the bushings wear out they lose grip of the sleeve and it stays put when you pull the bushing out. you don't reuse the sleeve because it would be really a waste of time to put the old sleeve in place of the new sleeve on your new bushing... so it's easier and more effective to remove the old one like matt described (if it's not stuck then it'll just slide right off as part of the bushing anyways)
Thx
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 65
From: Bellevue, WA 98004
Just wanted to chime back in. Pulled both the arms today. First one was a huge PITA, what with the 22mm/27mm wrench and sockets I had to buy, the cotter pin on my ball joints being stuck like a sob, and the damn sleeve seized on the control arm like so many have reported. Tried the drill method, not very successful. Then I just burned the thing out, worked like a charm and really wasn't that dirty (I didn't do much digging, just patient burning).
The second one was easy after learning the method. Plus, the sleeve was just rusty underneath and not seized. A little liquid wrench and jerking got it right out. Now I just need to get some new sway bar bushings and end-link bushings and I'm good to go.
Thanks a lot to everyone here. This job sounds pretty hardcore, but it's really not bad. And this method is way easier than the FSM way. Cheers.
The second one was easy after learning the method. Plus, the sleeve was just rusty underneath and not seized. A little liquid wrench and jerking got it right out. Now I just need to get some new sway bar bushings and end-link bushings and I'm good to go.
Thanks a lot to everyone here. This job sounds pretty hardcore, but it's really not bad. And this method is way easier than the FSM way. Cheers.
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