plaman88

Fuel pump won't pump, I replaced it and tested voltage at fuel pump is only around 9v, the pump works when I hook a jump box up to it but the engine still only spins, however one time I got the engine to run roughly for a minute or two, and nothing since. Code says there is a fault in fuel pump circuit but I don't see why it wouldn't fire when I jump boxed the pump. Code flashed was code 22. I replaced the fuel pump relay, still nothing. I noticed the fuel pump harness that plugs into main chassis harness seems to be causing the drop in voltage, it tests battery voltage on chassis connector. The sleeve around the wire seems intact and I doubt causing a short so I try connecting speaker wire (18 gauge) to the tested good 12v connector and still nothing.

The question: Why won't my car start, Im hoping its the MAF that is telling the computer "no air don't pump gas to engine", I ordered a used replacement should be here this week, before the car totally quit starting it would stall when put into gear after i had to gas it to even get it to idle.

2Legal4Me

try turning the ecu fully clockwise or counterclockwise or viseversa and then attemp to start. Its really not a whole lot to the vg30 eccs unit that will cause it not to start. Indeed maf will but it veries i had a maf go completely out and still started normal but would'nt go over 2500rpm. Also the crankangle sensor is a main sensor too often overlooked or a bad coil. or maybe your pressure regulator is failing internally blocking the passage to the injectors interms no pressure

plaman88

Thanks for the response but I know for a fact fuel isn't even leaving the pump lid, i pulled the lines, unless FPR is in that head and I overlooked it? Wouldn't the crank angle be ruled out if my RPMs wiggle when I start it confirming it is infact reading the slow rpm made by cranking it? From what I have read there are 6 coils? 60 each to replace? hope thats not it, eesh. Anybody else have 2 cents for me?

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

FPR is in your trunk. It's driver-side of the latch, and in that same area as the latch (it's green).

You have GXE->Distributor->1 coil. only 92-94 SE models have the 6 coils because they have a VE engine with no distributor.
The coil is at the bottom-center of the pic, with the red-boot wire coming out of the driver's side of it. that goes into the distributor (the thing with 6 wires coming out of it) and those wires hook into your spark plugs. I was changing my cap/rotor/wires that day so that's why everything is disconnected. The very bottom pic is a closeup of the ignition coil.

plaman88

Ok thanks, this is starting to look alot like my 85 civic, I swear im going to kill someone if that ignition module is toast. Can you test all these units with a multimeter to see if they are good or not?

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

grab a timing light and if it lights up you have spark.. test all 6 wires to make sure you have all 6 plugs firing. you're not actually timing the motor though, just making sure you are sparking. you can't test a spark with a multimeter because the multimeter does't update fast enough to catch a quick spark like that. there may be some resistance specs to check concerning your coil and plug wires and stuff... but I don't know what they'd be.

my brother's coil quit at a stop sign. he started, drove to the stop sign of the parking lot where he worked at the time. checked both ways and gave it some gas... check engine light + silence.. but I don't know if they quit between starts, it seems like a coil would only quit while running. What did it run like the very last time the car operated normally? describe the last drive, and when you parked, turned off.. and then how long before you came back and it wouldn't start?

plaman88

Wish I could, I bought the car from a friends mom (his older brothers) and I know how it ran from starting it up once and it sputtered and completely stalled when put into gear. Only other time I knew of it I was riding around in it perfectly fine. oh god duh, 178k miles on the car too, that might help.

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

but you're sure all the spark plug wires are going to the right place? if they are mixed up the thing will show spark, but won't crank. also, turn the ignition to ON but don't try to start. You should hear a whirring sound for about 10 seconds. if you hear it, and then it goes away, that's your fuel pump in action. it automatically turns off after like 10 seconds if the ECU reads 0RPM on the engine.

Your wires should be routed exactly like this. The back cylinders are 1-3-5, fronts are 2-4-6. Cylinder 1 is farther to the passenger side than you might expect, but that's because they go in at an angle (odd plugs point toward the driver side, even plugs point toward the passenger side), plus the cylinders are in a staggered pattern. Thus, the #2 wire is almost directly in front of the #5 wire, and the #6 wire is waaay off to the driver's side of any odd# wires.

plaman88

Honestly I just figured it was something way more complicated than that off the bat, come to think of it the wires don't seem to be in any sort of pattern, i just figured they were cheap **** wires that weren't even cut to length to begin with. I'll check that and shoot myself if that fixes it.

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

check post #8 again, i edited. and if that's the problem, and you do shoot yourself, please use rubber bullets. they hurt just as bad but at least you won't die from it...

plaman88

Good call

Next time I'm at the shop

1. Check Plug Order
2. Install MAF

Anything else I can do if those don't work?

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

... oh you already have the car at the shop? that sucks. remember to turn the ignition ON but don't try and crank it (first make sure every other sound-emitting device like radio or ac/heat are OFF so you can listen better) and listen from the driver seat, or put your ear on the middle-rear seatcushion and have someone else turn the key. if you hear nothing at all, you might still have a fuel issue. have you checked fuelpump fuse in the fuse box next to your leg? if not CHECK THE FUSE you'll shoot yourself if that's it... just like you'll shoot yourself for almost anything else it is. if you pull said fuse and try and crank it a few times you'll relieve the fuel pressure (try 5 failed starts of decent duration) and that will give you a safe opportunity to install a fuel pressure gauge (~$40) after the fuel filter. then plug the fuse back in and turn the ignition to ON. pressure should rise to ~40PSI. then try and start, and see what the pressure does. uhmm... make sure that the distributor wires are all firmly seated, as well as the input plug and output wire for your ignition coil. a loose connection could prevent sparkage even if your wires are correction positioned. pull a plug and see if it's nasty. if it's really black and foul and nasty and oil covered it won't spark. and if one's that bad they may all be that bad.

just a few 'basic' solutions off the top of my head.

plaman88

no no its my shop, lol its a building I have rented out, its like a huge garage me and some buddies went in on.

There is no fuel even to the filter in the engine bay on the firewall. I took the hose off and nothing came out, its clean enough to flow something, i blew on it.

LvR

As long as there is no fuel there with the ignition just having been switched on, you can forget to run the motor.

You sure there is fuel in the tank?

2 faulty fuel pumps?Jump the pump again ala that experiment but do the following first:

If you can have a buddy help, you can also try to "prime the pump" first(assuming its a bit wonky with leaky valves etc):

Remove the flexible hose from the bottom of the fuel filter. Rig a small funnel connected to a length of tubing long enough so the top of the funnel is above the filler neck of the tank .......................... also remove the outlet flexible hose on the fuel pump and let it hang into the tank (or a bucket etc)..................... now pour fuel down the funnel (a liter or more should be able to fill empty hoses) while your friend partially restricts the outlet of the hose at the back (just enough to fill the whole hose train) - when he sees a nice solid stream of fuel coming out at the back, connect it back to the pump outlet while you keep the funnel full of fuel at the front - leave it sitting like that for a while. A fair indicator of a set of good pump valves will be the fact that no further fuel will be going into the funnel at the front of the car at this stage. When you reach that situation reconnect the fuel filter and only then start your "jumping" of the pump and attempt to start the car then (if you feel confident with your ability to handle and control many liters of fuel from the hose that goes the fuel filter, you can also check the pump's operation by "jumping the pump" while dumping the fuel coming out the hose in the engine bay into a container)

Remember - its fuel so be careful.

92 Max

I don't remember, does the GXE have two relays for the fuel pump? The main one and a cut out one in case of accident? It could be a problem with this other relay.

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

you mean the "Safety Relay"? That prevents you from messing stuff up if the battery is put in wrong, and it is wired into the fuel pump circuit. The circuitry in it is very exclusive, so you can't swap it with another relay..

"The safety relay prevents electrical damage to the ECM and injectors when batter terminals are connected in reverse. The safety relay is built into the fuel pump control circuit."

So... if the orange one (safety) is being wetawded, then the green one (fuel pump relay) will not function either, I don't think.
EDIT- yeah. I looked at the wiring diagram, and if your ground is + and your should-be-battery-voltage is actually your ground, then what will happen is that the electricity that would flow through the 'switch' portion of the fuel pump relay will be interrupted, thus, no fuel pumping whill happen. The safety relay is closed by default, but somehow it may have opened and gotten stuck there or something. I highly suggest performing the test located on EC-99 thru the top half of EC-101 in the FSM.


to car owner: have you checked for ECM error codes?

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

92 Max

[QUOTE=capedcadaver]you mean the "Safety Relay"? That prevents you from messing stuff up if the battery is put in wrong, and it is wired into the fuel pump circuit. The circuitry in it is very exclusive, so you can't swap it with another relay..

Actually, the safety relay is to shut off the fuel pump in case the car is in an accident, the engine stops, but the ignition is still on and the lines broken. This prevents the pump from emptying the gas tank onto your shoes while you're trapped in the car, smoking a cigar and waiting for the fire dept.

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

I don't doubt that, but that italicized quote was directly from the FSM.

plaman88

I replaced that green relay you guys pictured already, fuel pump correct? I need to get some pictures going here to make sense of all this.

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

yeah that one is the fuel pump relay. the orange one may be being wetawded too. find another 3rd gen car and borrow theirs. put your key ON and let the pump run for a sec before starting it, they try and start it using their orange relay. did you prime the fuel line like LvR said?

plaman88

not yet, I might get a chance to work on it tomorrow, if not thursday, I checked the plug order today, its legit. Still waiting on MAF, trying to make the to-check list, thanks a ton btw caped your the man.

92 Max

I've got to admit, I'm not familiar with that use of the fuel cut out or safety relay, so I defer to you on this. The '92 doesn't have one, which I found odd. But yes it could cause fuel pump problems and the green and orange relays should be tested and/or replaced. They don't cost much and I performed the book tests on my relay and it passed (apply current across the terminals and the other two should have continuity, the first thing I tested). The only way I found the problem was when I replaced the relay, after doing every other test I could think of, and it permanently fixed the problem. If he's only getting less than 12 Volts at the pump, it could be a poor connection inside the relay. The battery power has to travel a long way to get to the pump.

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

the diagnostic test on those pages i mentioned above will tell him everything he needs to know about what parts to replace if there is an electrical problem with the fuel pump.
vvv those pages vvv

92 Max

Hopefully they will. I found the manual for my car, not very helpful, for relays. I performed the tests for the fuel pump relay described in the engine controls and emissions section and it passed. I only figured it out when I replaced the relay, on a hunch, and all of the problems disappeared - the hesitations, the wanting to stall when starting in first with the engine hot. It's a whole new car.

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

relays can be tested outright, though, if you know where to source a properly fused hot wire from. Just find where you need to hook it up, and test continuity across the switch under on/off for the coil. The safetly relay is a whole different animal with its diode and parallel structure. Harder to test? yes. Impossible to test? no.

Alex_V

The problem relays can be intermittently bad. Go over a bump, and it looses contact. Or just the engine vibration etc etc.

~Alex

plaman88

messed with it last night, all ignition components work, i fires right up with starting fluid and when i jump the fuel pump sputters around 400 rpm but it just won't go all the way, im really thinking mAF but the one i bought off ebay isn't coming now so if anybody has one for sale or better i could borrow, let me know.

Greeny

iTrader: (43)

Disconnect the maf harness,if it idles/runs better after you do this,than this will confirm the maf is bad...

NOTE: the car will not rev over 2200rpm with the maf unplugged..

plaman88

what if it still dosen't fire with maf disconnected and fuel pump being jumped?

LvR

Dude - why don't you do more yourself along the lines of stuff already suggested and stop worrying about things that may never happen? - eg pull the friggin maf plug and come back with a result.

Come back with more questions when you have tried it all in a methodical manner then perhaps somebody can make sense of it in a timely fashion - you actually have the car there so can prove/disprove any of the theories we wrote volumes on here

Greeny

iTrader: (43)

How bout you try what i suggested first...

Then,we can go from there...


Edit: LVR beat me to it..

Alex_V

Then its not a bad maf

~Alex

plaman88

Alright well its a good 30min drive to where I have the car and I hate going out there working on it for 5 minutes then being out of ideas and making the 30 min drive back just to post for 30 seconds on how it went, but thanks for the help and i'll let you know how it goes.

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

did you manipulate the throttle once it staretd its 400rpm sputter? if so, did said manipulation help any, or have any effect at all?

i bet you'd love it if you could text replies to the forum, and read the forum, on your cellphone...

plaman88

i tried flooring it, doing nothing to the pedal, no go however when i have the gas down with no cranking going on i hear a "buzzing" noise from under the hood, very interesting sound

and for the cell phone idea? invent it.

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

well, if you put it in ON and don't start it, you should hear a buzzing... but that buzzing sound should be the fuel pump, meaning it should sound to be coming from the center of the rear seatcushion. Now it's possible that you are just hearing the fuel moving down the line, but the buzzing should be coming from the rear. I can't think of anything else that would buzz, especially with no engine motion (thus no anything-else motion). next time you go let the buzzing happen and just let it buzz on and on, and see if the buzzing stops when you pull the fuel pump fuse by your leg. it's labelled on the fuse box cover, and if you don't have a fuse puller (mine was misplaced by some previous owner or something) standard pliers will grip it just as well. if the buzzing stops as soon as you pull that fuse, that's what it is. turn the ignition off before putting the fuse back in, just to be on the safe side.

alas, I'm not nearly smart enough to do that sort of cellular website mess... maybe the site's operator could, though. maybe there's already a function to do that; I wouldn't know.

plaman88

I know its no the fuel pump buzzing, and it only happens when i give it gas. I have the rear seat cushion off, so long ago. The fuel flow sound and pump is different from this, i know from jumping the pump. It sat on a car lot for a while before i bought it and the guy there said it for sure needed at least 1 injector, but would that make it not start or run like ****.

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

if your fuel line has any sort of clog in it, it could be messing you up. one bad injector shouldn't kill you unless it is somehow affecting other injectors too... but one bad injector is the same as one bad plug. you can pull off a single plug wire and the engine will run. it just won't run pretty. for it to be struggling this bad, you'd have to be down to like 1 or 2 good cylinders. just curious (it probably won't do much good as many times as this car's been tried to start) but have you tried pulling ECM codes?

if it weren't so important to get the thing running this would be a pretty fun challenge to figure it out.

hey did you ever put a pressure gauge post-filter like i mentioned earlier? if you put one in it will really help you grasp exactly what is going on just that much better.

LvR

Ok - so how about using soft edged pliers to clamp the fuel return line from the FPR (fuel pressure regulator) and then try and start the motor - perhaps your FPR is somehow preventing proper 40 psi fuel pressure reaching the injector rails? ................. that sure would screw the ability to "run" along the lines you posted, and clamping the return line would force a funky pump or FPR to produce max possible pressure - As capedcadaver said - what is the fuel pressure post the filter?

That buzzing sound ............ is it the IACV going ape perhaps? (in theory I would expect that to be "stationary" and not to buzz if all relevant sensor inputs remains constant - ie - you leave the throttle etc alone). I would definitely try and locate the source of the "buzz" before you do anything else - its not normal.