Transmission flush
08-23-2007, 11:33 AM
#1
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Transmission flush
I wanted to step away from the main flood thread to deal with some of the specific issues I'm having. This one will be with the A/T.
After checking the fluid recently, I noticed it has a pinkish look to it, so water got in. I've only driven around the block after the flood, hopefully nothing was damaged in such a short time.
From what I've read, about 1/2 of the ATF stays in the torque converter. So if I replace fluid then 0.5^n would remain for n flushes, which doesnt help me much because even after draining and filling 3 times I'm still at close to 10% water-contaminated ATF.
I read there is equipment at some of the service places that hooks up directly to the cooler lines, so it drains old fluid from outgoing line and fills with new fluid into the incoming line. Midas claims to replace 95% of old ATF using this. Has anyone had a service like this done? Is it worth it or should I just do 5-6 flushes?
After checking the fluid recently, I noticed it has a pinkish look to it, so water got in. I've only driven around the block after the flood, hopefully nothing was damaged in such a short time.
From what I've read, about 1/2 of the ATF stays in the torque converter. So if I replace fluid then 0.5^n would remain for n flushes, which doesnt help me much because even after draining and filling 3 times I'm still at close to 10% water-contaminated ATF.
I read there is equipment at some of the service places that hooks up directly to the cooler lines, so it drains old fluid from outgoing line and fills with new fluid into the incoming line. Midas claims to replace 95% of old ATF using this. Has anyone had a service like this done? Is it worth it or should I just do 5-6 flushes?
08-23-2007, 12:36 PM
#3
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Originally Posted by mikekantor
I wanted to step away from the main flood thread to deal with some of the specific issues I'm having. This one will be with the A/T.
After checking the fluid recently, I noticed it has a pinkish look to it, so water got in. I've only driven around the block after the flood, hopefully nothing was damaged in such a short time.
From what I've read, about 1/2 of the ATF stays in the torque converter. So if I replace fluid then 0.5^n would remain for n flushes, which doesnt help me much because even after draining and filling 3 times I'm still at close to 10% water-contaminated ATF.
I read there is equipment at some of the service places that hooks up directly to the cooler lines, so it drains old fluid from outgoing line and fills with new fluid into the incoming line. Midas claims to replace 95% of old ATF using this. Has anyone had a service like this done? Is it worth it or should I just do 5-6 flushes?
After checking the fluid recently, I noticed it has a pinkish look to it, so water got in. I've only driven around the block after the flood, hopefully nothing was damaged in such a short time.
From what I've read, about 1/2 of the ATF stays in the torque converter. So if I replace fluid then 0.5^n would remain for n flushes, which doesnt help me much because even after draining and filling 3 times I'm still at close to 10% water-contaminated ATF.
I read there is equipment at some of the service places that hooks up directly to the cooler lines, so it drains old fluid from outgoing line and fills with new fluid into the incoming line. Midas claims to replace 95% of old ATF using this. Has anyone had a service like this done? Is it worth it or should I just do 5-6 flushes?
the problem with pressure flushing is that it removes material from friction surfaces inside the trans, and can hasten a transmissions demise.
I have seen lots of people saying the same (don't flush the box it will die) .................. in the light of the above, logic dictates that there is no means of proving that the box would not have died even if the flush did not happen ...................... using the same funky logic I can actually prove exactly the opposite - ie - that draining/flushing an old worn-out box (300000km in my case) does NOT kill it ...................... but as I said that is illogical irrespective of the number of people saying it out loud.
In the end, the reality is that the box was never designed to work with "removable" material on the friction surfaces so why would such animals help the operation of the box in its old age? ......................... guess the answer could be that the "removable" material causes "gouging" in the metal friction surfaces next to the worn clutches/bands and as a result possibly extend the inevitable ......................
08-23-2007, 01:24 PM
#4
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if they can first have the drain-plug removed to dump the rubbish at the bottom of the box, even better
08-23-2007, 01:46 PM
#5
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Found some interesting info during continued searching:
http://www.pecuniary.com/pdf/transmissionfluidevac.pdf
Does the VE A/T have a filter, or do the magnets act as the only filters? I've never seen a filter in diagrams.
It appears that changing fluid right now will dislodge lots of buildup, and that new circulating dirt is what would cause an expedited failure. Maybe I'll just drain and refill it once per week until it starts to come out clean, whatever I spend on fluid will be cheaper than a used or rebuilt transmission.
http://www.pecuniary.com/pdf/transmissionfluidevac.pdf
Does the VE A/T have a filter, or do the magnets act as the only filters? I've never seen a filter in diagrams.
It appears that changing fluid right now will dislodge lots of buildup, and that new circulating dirt is what would cause an expedited failure. Maybe I'll just drain and refill it once per week until it starts to come out clean, whatever I spend on fluid will be cheaper than a used or rebuilt transmission.
08-23-2007, 02:05 PM
#6
Originally Posted by mikekantor
Found some interesting info during continued searching:
http://www.pecuniary.com/pdf/transmissionfluidevac.pdf
Does the VE A/T have a filter, or do the magnets act as the only filters? I've never seen a filter in diagrams.
It appears that changing fluid right now will dislodge lots of buildup, and that new circulating dirt is what would cause an expedited failure. Maybe I'll just drain and refill it once per week until it starts to come out clean, whatever I spend on fluid will be cheaper than a used or rebuilt transmission.
http://www.pecuniary.com/pdf/transmissionfluidevac.pdf
Does the VE A/T have a filter, or do the magnets act as the only filters? I've never seen a filter in diagrams.
It appears that changing fluid right now will dislodge lots of buildup, and that new circulating dirt is what would cause an expedited failure. Maybe I'll just drain and refill it once per week until it starts to come out clean, whatever I spend on fluid will be cheaper than a used or rebuilt transmission.
The vg/ve transmissions have a screen,not a fiber type filter like many domestic tranmissions...
I would just drain/refill with cheapo fluid a few times(drive it a few days between changes to circulate the new fluid before changing),then fill with fresh nissanmatic-d fluid or amsoil for your final change...
08-23-2007, 02:25 PM
#7
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Originally Posted by MyGreenMax94
The vg/ve transmissions have a screen,not a fiber type filter like many domestic tranmissions...
08-23-2007, 05:14 PM
#9
Originally Posted by MyGreenMax94
Nope,it's somewhere in the valve body area iirc,not easily accessible..
LvR- I do know what I am referring to and I ASSuME that you haven't been inside a trans after it's been flushed or seen what happens to a trans along it's life span. I have and it's much more fragile than you make it sound.
trust me, don't power flush.
08-23-2007, 05:37 PM
#11
nope, it's in the normal location.
Drop the pan
remove some cross bar (4 bolts IIRC)
and the filter drops out.
or something like that.
I did it on my first vE after I smacked the trans pan into a curb.
Drop the pan
remove some cross bar (4 bolts IIRC)
and the filter drops out.
or something like that.
I did it on my first vE after I smacked the trans pan into a curb.
08-23-2007, 05:41 PM
#12
Originally Posted by internetautomar
nope, it's in the normal location.
Drop the pan
remove some cross bar (4 bolts IIRC)
and the filter drops out.
or something like that.
I did it on my first vE after I smacked the trans pan into a curb.
Drop the pan
remove some cross bar (4 bolts IIRC)
and the filter drops out.
or something like that.
I did it on my first vE after I smacked the trans pan into a curb.
The control valve assembly is the first thing you will see when you drop the pan?
08-23-2007, 06:15 PM
#16
http://www.transtarindustries.com/ca...oad.asp?ID=359
shows it much more clearly.
Like I said, I know it's there, I replaced it on mine.
and when you go into a parts store they will sell you a filter kit ATP # B-151
shows it much more clearly.
Like I said, I know it's there, I replaced it on mine.
and when you go into a parts store they will sell you a filter kit ATP # B-151
08-23-2007, 08:47 PM
#19
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FWIW
The service that is offered at most quick lubes etc are very similiar. I manage one so I can tell you for sure that there is a substantial difference between a transmission flush and a transmission fluid exchange.. Using the machine we, and most others use does not put any pressure into the transmission, it is a one for one "exchange" that takes place by seperating the line where it goes into the cooler and with the engine running, it uses the transmission pump to push the old fluid out, thus pushing the new fluid into the trans.. this does replace over 95% of the fluid in the transmission and will not do anything to the transmission internally that it won't do to itself under normal operation. Hope this clears up things a bit.
My max has had this service done every 30,000 miles or less since new and at 150,000 I still continue to do it. Only time it can cause any trouble is on a vehicle with a transmission that is so shot that the only thing holding things together is the extra grit that would be in 15 year old fluid that has never been changed, in that case.. if its never been done before, exchanging that fluid can bring underlying troubles to the service.. not breaking it just taking away its crutch (transhy, broken down grit filled fluid)
The service that is offered at most quick lubes etc are very similiar. I manage one so I can tell you for sure that there is a substantial difference between a transmission flush and a transmission fluid exchange.. Using the machine we, and most others use does not put any pressure into the transmission, it is a one for one "exchange" that takes place by seperating the line where it goes into the cooler and with the engine running, it uses the transmission pump to push the old fluid out, thus pushing the new fluid into the trans.. this does replace over 95% of the fluid in the transmission and will not do anything to the transmission internally that it won't do to itself under normal operation. Hope this clears up things a bit.
My max has had this service done every 30,000 miles or less since new and at 150,000 I still continue to do it. Only time it can cause any trouble is on a vehicle with a transmission that is so shot that the only thing holding things together is the extra grit that would be in 15 year old fluid that has never been changed, in that case.. if its never been done before, exchanging that fluid can bring underlying troubles to the service.. not breaking it just taking away its crutch (transhy, broken down grit filled fluid)
08-23-2007, 10:02 PM
#20
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Originally Posted by internetautomar
nope. the VE has one that you'll see once you drop the pan.
LvR- I do know what I am referring to and I ASSuME that you haven't been inside a trans after it's been flushed or seen what happens to a trans along it's life span. I have and it's much more fragile than you make it sound.
trust me, don't power flush.
LvR- I do know what I am referring to and I ASSuME that you haven't been inside a trans after it's been flushed or seen what happens to a trans along it's life span. I have and it's much more fragile than you make it sound.
trust me, don't power flush.
We seem to forever be holding different approaches to anything and everything we talk about - the difference is that I have technical arguments to substantiate my position whereas you simply ask me to trust you ................... and once again in a situation where I actually do have the experience you may think I don't.
Its as simple as this:
Worn transmission components' life cannot be extended beyond the point where they no longer operate as designed - and certainly not by the addition of worn box materials circulating in the oil. If you happen to drain /flush the ATF and the box fails, then the box was already dying/dead to begin with - having to rely on the presence of crap in the oil to make friction surfaces work as designed (in effect what you are advocating when you say "removes material from friction surfaces inside the trans") is a crap-shoot ito prolonging box life.
If you have removable material on the friction surfaces in the box (due to wear) they will get released into the oil during normal operation anyway.....................
As soaknfused said there too - the "power flushing" is a bull****-baffles-brains term used by unscrupulous operators to trick the vehicle owners into thinking that there is some kind of "pressure cleaning" performed in the operation when all they actually do is to replace all the oil circulating through the cooler by the operation of the box at its normal levels/modes.
A power-flush can only affect the oil and the flow of it in the box by means of the cooler return and feed lines - In reality, the oil pump's construction and the pressure regulator valve in the box prevent any kind of abnormal flow to get into the box via the cooler feed line without the box being completely cracked open and the operation done from inside the exposed box's components with some kind of pressurized nozzle forcing oil into crevices. As for the cooler return line - no use putting pressure on there higher than what the box's pump can send down the cooler feed line - if you do, you simply overfill the box and cause a mess
Net result is there is in reality no pressure entering the box other than what its normally been operating at - so where exactly is the problem?
08-24-2007, 05:43 AM
#21
you can have your opinion, I will have my 10+ yrs experience.
I've seen way too many cars come in after a power flush with a blown trans to ignore it.
If you look at the composition of a friction plate you realize that it can very easily lose the friction material from the plate if too much pressure is applied.
most trans flush machines do a reverse flush which means that the pressure doesn't see the "relief" valve until after it has hit the friction plates.
I've seen way too many cars come in after a power flush with a blown trans to ignore it.
If you look at the composition of a friction plate you realize that it can very easily lose the friction material from the plate if too much pressure is applied.
most trans flush machines do a reverse flush which means that the pressure doesn't see the "relief" valve until after it has hit the friction plates.
08-24-2007, 07:30 AM
#22
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If you look at the composition of a friction plate you realize that it can very easily lose the friction material from the plate if too much pressure is applied.
The box's design during normal operation is comfortabily applying orders more pressure to the friction material than what the oilpump/relief valve combination can create via the ATF.
which means that the pressure doesn't see the "relief" valve until after it has hit the friction plates.
Lets agree to disagree now - you are simply not making sense - irrespective of 10+ years of experience (which happens to be not much less than my own in the this particular field btw)
08-24-2007, 07:49 AM
#23
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I dont know if either of you read the PDF I posted above, but in it, the claim is that the infusion of new fluid after a long time with old fluid puts a lot of dirt into the filter/screen.
So if the screen is cleaned soon after, and maybe again a few weeks later, then everything will be fine. Otherwise it gets clogged, and parts which need lubrication and cooling dont get it, so the tranny fails. I plan on doing this, so after I get the water contamination out, I am going to clean the pan, magnet, and clean or replace the screen. Then do it again after a week or two of light driving, and then possibly another time soon after, because I think my transmission still has factory atf in it. I know I know, its bad, but for a long time my maintenance was of a responsive nature as opposed to preventative. And I think the owners manual says to only change ATF if driving at heavy loads, and often in high-dirt areas, so I ignored it.
So if the screen is cleaned soon after, and maybe again a few weeks later, then everything will be fine. Otherwise it gets clogged, and parts which need lubrication and cooling dont get it, so the tranny fails. I plan on doing this, so after I get the water contamination out, I am going to clean the pan, magnet, and clean or replace the screen. Then do it again after a week or two of light driving, and then possibly another time soon after, because I think my transmission still has factory atf in it. I know I know, its bad, but for a long time my maintenance was of a responsive nature as opposed to preventative. And I think the owners manual says to only change ATF if driving at heavy loads, and often in high-dirt areas, so I ignored it.
08-24-2007, 08:17 AM
#24
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Originally Posted by LvR
...........
~Alex
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