I'm making this post via my phone so I have to make I short. The company that offers this kit for the ve30de said they stopped poduction on the kit. I wanted to get the kit for my max and they said they'll need atleast 3 advanced orders before they can do it. I was trying to see if anyone would be interested in getting the kit with me.

 

ibgreenyhasanexcusenottogetone

i have the VG kit. actually i'm the first VG owner in the WORLD with that kit, hand installed by the founder/owner of NWP himself (Aaron92SE). Cool guy. Anyhow i was noticing that the VE ones were sold out the other day, when i checked the site for any new-and-exciting products that may be compatible with the 3rd gens... i know most NWP stuff is geared at the newer cars, simply due to a higher demand for VQ30, DEK, and VQ35 stuffs. Good luck though. I know there's a few other VE owners out there that would like to gain back the power they lose during the hot summer days. If you've ever had pinging even with 93octane premium in the tank, this should eliminate it.

 

Is this Aaron's company?

If you wait until early July, I was thinking about getting one. I just sold my house/bought another one, so June is pretty much booked up both for time and money.

 

If you have pinging with 93 octane, you probably need a new knock sensor.

 

i dunno what's up with LvR's car then. his is a VG that pings in the summer. in extreme heat, and with the a/c running, in traffic, you may not ping, but the KS will retard your timing a little, so either way it sucks. with cooler air coming in it wouldn't need to retard the timing as much, if at all, in those extreme conditions.

 

mine doesnt have any of those issues except the flooding injector we just replaced. Just gotta put int he O-rings. I just thought it'd be a good idea to get this to delete the EGR plus deal with this heat soak problem i read about.

 

This spacer business sounds like globball warmuppet -tale to me until actual proof arrives. Needs some real time air temp measurement, before and after spacing... not like the al Gore -group temp hoax measurements at airports measuring jet engine exhaust as poof ...

The AIR temp sucked into cylinders is the only true point to measure, fill in the blanks:

1. What could be the theoretical maximum AIR temp change it could make, taking in account most different driving conditions ?

2. What actual AIR temp change can this spacer make ?

3.a. What effect could this one (?) degree AIR temp change have theoretically on engine performance?
3.b. What effect could theoretical maximum change have on engine performance?

4. What are the actual measured effects this spacer has on engine performance?

 

I'm sure all this has been touched upon in the past. Since this kit has been around for a while now.

 

True. No effects then, none better now. Buying tingies satisfies most; no fact$ needed ...be happy.

 

aaron's got dyno sheets posted for all models except the VG30E...

 

Do you have any idea what assistance they provide for the vg? Could this be the reason your vg auto was so fast?

 

Ah - but you left out perhaps the one very relevant fact I also mentioned:

As long as the temp of the metal intake tract just before the TB stays under about 60C (I have a permanent sensor sitting there), then I have from experimentation, found that I have no problem no matter what the ambient temp is - either summer or winter.

For the record - If I get on the open road and drive at a constant speed around 90kph+, that temp stabilizes around 53C (with TB heating bypassed)...................... and me suspecting that the intake air temp is indeed influenced (in this case lowered) causing a less critical timing/mixture combination removing the slight ping I would hear otherwise

Also - as I said the "pinging" is just audible at bigger loads/lugging (by me and not most other people in the same car at the same time - often causing me to think I am overly sensitive to this) and not the kind that sounds like a valve-job gone wrong. (New KS never gets triggered to retard timing when I hear the feint "ping" at all, so I re-fitted the original KS)

Given my own experience, I would say that the mentioned spacer in the thread title may cause a similar temp change with a possible bigger drop in intake air temp, but I have only a gut feel - nothing else.

For the record also - bypassing TB heating made the mentioned temp point drop by around 6C at a constant open road cruizing speed, but not by much (possibly 2C or less only) in town driving

 

you mean the reason i got a a 16.3 with nothing but spacers and a HAI? prolly. it was sooo funny when aaron sat shotgun in my car just after install. I punched and he was like "WHOA... it's been a while since i've been in a car with that kind of torque off the line." cuz he has a VE (which raped my car by a full 3 seconds at the Kinston Drag Strip, btw). i wish i could have let him take a run in my car just to see what he could get in it, since he's got a lot more experience in drag racing, but alas i never did.

lvr: i couldn't remember exactly what you had said i just knew at one time you had a nagging problem with pinging. anyhow, the temp reductions we observed were 12c to 15c, the 15c being below the power valve actuator.

 

I use my car on the road, thus dyno doesnt give muchas hlp

Btw. Telling indication is: No user measurable effect when TB heating is closed. One could also use teflon spacers on strut nuts, measure and find out that they're one degree cooler than before. BUT. Wassup? No effect on driveability.

JUST GIVE THE AIR TEMPS at valves, during various driving conditions. Then also all relevant facts on engine performance...

This discussion is parallel with Al Gores hoax film claims where North Pole iceberg's collapse ... later found out to be Hollywood Styrofoam simulations ... still the soros grnpies have brainwashed all nations via 'dyno-TVs', even though 99 of 100 climate scientist wont approve. Man, no real life facts here or there...

Ppl do always believe what they want or are programmed - no facts needed.

My questions seem to remain unanswered - forever?

 

is your issue that you think the coolant bypasses do more work to cool stuff than the spacers do? I can't say either way, b/c they are installed at the same time. but were would you want the air temps taken from? the middle of the UIM? in front of the TB? beind the TB? behind the donkey ?

 

No. I mean that the component small temp differences, while driving, is no big deal. Even if they could affect 300mph airstream, even theoretically few degrees cant have any noticeable effect.

On the other hand, very small changes on intake form can have tremendous effects on turbulences = airflow - 'nothin' to do with temp.

Go install '10 temp' sensors in various spots under the hood, do record year around. I have done that in 80's... No virtual dynopwr but real life.

Where measured? Explained already, see above. Oxygen weight in filled cylinder is what matters.

Check out my video - no don keys there but an Mariner outboard in the stuffed overweight trunk... must go and find a track...

 

My guess is yes your questions will stay unanswered.

The average 3rd gen owner is imo not financially able to afford the equipment/tests to do the kind of measurements you are after and frankly probably couldnt give a toss about those either even if they could afford it - most 3rd gen owners battle to read and understand/interpret the temp guage behavior in the car's dash for crying in a bucket - all they want is a reliable method of comfortable transport.

Perhaps you are again trying to be argumentative? - didnt I just again post measured temp differences with the TB heating bypassed? - or are you saying when you did the TB bypass you couldnt measure anything different? ................ in my case what I measured has had a marked influence on my own use of the vehicle - iow - yes - "drivability" wrt my own particular use of the vehicle.

While I agree in general with your approach of wanting emperical measurements and proof, nobody here is able to quantify the exact gains (or not) to be had from eg TB heating bypass and phenolic IM spacer presence (other than what has already been posted) ............. or are you saying you can?

If you cannot or will not see the possible value of a properly controlled dyno run both with and without the suggested mods, then there is simply no pleasing you and you are simply trying to be argumentative as I said before - just like you, I also only drive my car on the road, but a dyno run under controlled circumstances is in fact the only cheap and "close to reliably reproducible" method of quantifying the results from any given experiment ................... nobody else can even come close to driving the same way as you or I do, so there can be no possible reason for you to insist on empirical measurements for those non-repeatable conditions - imo a controlled dyno run result and Caped's temp results are infinitely more valuable than your constant insistence on there not being any measurable "drivability" impact as a result of eg the phenolic spacer mod

 

I have relevant questions w/o answers, my demands are sound. Produce.

As my TB heat was closed, no difference in mpg or whatsoever. Didnt bother to check temp.

Dyno lacks the 'wind' cooling of ALL engine compartment which is very near ambient temp over 50kmh. This has effect on ALL variables under the hood, and those issues are most important, spacers pale on those facts.

Those who claim that spacers produce 7heaven AND VIA AIR COOLING should show that data. Component temp is NOT the data I am interested, its mpg, 0-60mph or whatever...

The seller should produce all data, its not my task. Its very telling that VG is missing = nothing to show. Maybe 'better' dyno results are just question of affecting turbulences?

Everyone is free to buy snake oil happiness is more important than facts.

 

Im happy with my spacer kit. With the coolant bypass and EGR delete.

If your making more power... in theory, your going to either use more or less fuel, it all comes down to the way you drive your car.

(From what I understand)
The spacer kit was designed to keep the upper plenum cooler <--- notice I say cooler and not COLD. Since we all know (at least I think we all do) cooler air = more dense. The kit also lengthens the intake runners, which in turn add some hp/tq.

I live in Florida. Driving around town, like today after work. The surface temperature of the Upper intake, gets hot as hell...yes. But thats just Florida weather.

Aaron also developed the spacer kit to share his own custom mod he made himself. He was running a Teflon spacer he created himself a while before creating the intake spacer kits. Aaron actually tells you the hp gains tq gains, temps of highway driving and town driving.

Aarons home dyno is actually on his car I believe. Soooo all the power specs were actually FROM driving, with the "windage" your wanting. If Im wrong about that... Aaron is a smart guy... Im sure he used a bit industrial fan for his dyno tests.

Hope that helps

 

The main issue is to hlp the driver, be it by whatever means. With no measured data and/or calculations of THE AIR TEMP entering cylinder, strong faith and good stories may hlp ppl to be happy

Note: Hell temp [dont get there] is 'somewhat' beyond boilin water.

 

aaron does his dyno runs on-car. it has programable parameters, and from there, he just goes to a safe location and performs his runs. you cannot get any possible better dyno than that. who gives a crap about temperature this, pressure that, airspeed this..... you want to know about drivability? see what the final numbers show while DRIVING the car. no need to get specific temperatures, to 'determine' if the mod is going to make more power... just get on a damn dyno and SEE FOR YOURSELF if it makes more power. it's already proven. why ask for MORE proof, which is a) useless in proving whether it works because everyone already knows it does and b) is too much of a pain in the ****ing *** to gather in the first place?

and what do you mean here: Maybe 'better' dyno results are just question of affecting turbulences?
they are port-matched.... like... EXACTLY port matched. see?



if you don't like his product (which you seem to want to bash despite never having tried it) then fine. you don't have to. but the dyno gains are proven, temperature changes are measured. it doesn't really matter WHY or HOW they work at this point, all that matters is that they do. and no, it's NOT aaron's job to provide useless details about his product to someone who never plans to buy them...

 

This product is sold on basis of AIR TEMP sucked in cylinder. Amirite? It is reasonable to demand the data... Ok, that doesnt exist. I say thats suspicious.

U fellas may not be aware of the critical air turbulences near TB: any minor mod affects flow... and has huge impact on total cylinder fillup. I have a +100hp N/A A/T video 'proving' my point...

As this spacer benefits yall ppl (I can no way prove that wrong, no need or want), then making such a nice hi quality spacer from any materiel will give same results = no TEMP -relation. Btw. The pic shows extremely well fitted and machined product - I guess there's the reason why, along with TB extension, not TEMP.

You cant convince me on TEMP w/o gathering the actual data on TEMP. If selling is based on these claims, then seller should produce. No data -is- suspicious (on TEMP). Btw. I am here not against any person or product., Aaron or dyno... I know most ppl hate me for not eating this TEMP-issue on true butt feelings, I will not change my temps b/c of that

 

he has no method of testing the incoming air temperature difference b/c they take 1-2 hours to install, based on the type, and the temperature outside can change alot during that time, along with a lot of other things that can change ambient, component, and intake temperature... he doesn't have a labratory or anything where he can set temp to 80degF and run tests like that.... his company is very small, doesn't have the facilities to do the sort of tests you want results for. he gave temp readings for all the components but that's the best he can do with the equipment and workspace he has.

 

FYI

"My best time at the track was ~0.1 seconds quicker and ~1 mph faster."

...sings spa-sings Sean Morgan, see at http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_110474/article.html

"While the intake ran 30 degrees F (17 degrees C) cooler at cruise and at least 50 degrees F (28 degrees C) cooler at idle;

According to dyno plots, I gained up to 7 horsepower and 11 ft-lbs of torque over the major portion of the power curve."

hmm.

 

Wiking... you want AIR temperature...

Air being sucked in is going to be the ambient temperature. The components are the reason why the air traveling to the cyl get hotter. Having spacers... cooler components... = less radiant heat transfer though air.

There is your answer. I win. Its logic...

 

What I really want to know is, why are you so worked up? It's not like you're being asked to buy it. The original intent of this thread was to see if there was any interest in buying the kit. I already found someone that's going to sell it to me. I don't need cold hard facts like you do. I work in the pharmaceutical industry and a lot of what I have to deal with doesn't always have scientific evidence behind it. Somethings just work and can't be proven. You are entitled to you opinion but I think this thread has already gone off topic from its original intent. If there are any admins out there that can lock it...that'd be great. Just start up a thread thats purely for the pros and cons or facts so the people that have the spacer kit can chime in as well...

 

Wrong. I want data from the old/new air temps before valves. No-one has yet produced the data of air temp reduction. Or calculations of huw much those few degrees could affect at theoretical dream. Will u? Waiting...

The ref article results are hilarious at best: such a variances my be produced any time after opening/closing an engine, playin fit with gaskets.

I am pleased as u won. Where was that contest?

This is the reason why I pass the snake oil shops, why I wont discuss on fairy tale forums. Truth is too hot for most of us to handle... For too painful truth theres always the fast route out: clic CTRL W

 

well, one could always just make a set of spacers out of the same material as the UIM itself and do a comparison.... nobody is putting temp sensors inside their intake so if aluminum spacers work as well as the phenolic spacers then you have your answer. you can't always get numerical results for your veriables, but you can still control the variables even if you can't measure them.

 

I do believe your current settings have positive effect.
1. One reason is not with the spacer itself but the poor original Maxima intake seating quality ...
2. I guess the main reason is depicted in link below.
3. On top of those, there may be the marginally lower air TEMP - at valves. I guess its hp increase may be 1hp, cant even know if is positive or negative (Here its time to evaluate the injection - which has cooling effect, atomization is poorer due to colder air, also it hitting oil film on the channels. Most important is atomization and average droplet dimension int he cylinder)

Ref to the article above: its nice if ppl like to have cooler intakes to touchy caress loved engine with fingers. Next (?) job is to get cold exhaust so kids wont burn tumbs? Whatever is the story behind, I dont like salesmen selling products on false pretenses - as does the mentioned snake oil industry. [Take care ... The Greek word for snake oil men is PHARMAKEIA = sorcery]

I am not saying Aarons product fits in sorcery-category; he doesnt claim lunatic things, like the pharmacy industry does too often. Still I want everyone buying the spacers to be aware wassup - not to pretend things that arent there. But as said, I do believe Cape your words in here; the products net effect is positive, parallel what Aaron promises. Still gathering basic data here is cheap, cost under 100$)

In VGE intake we are speaking of "curved ducts, subjected to centrifugal forces" - turbulences tamed (?) here with straight spacers. As a guess, I suggest u to get as thick (extended) spacers as u can or buy double... My comment on this TEMP issue ends here until smbdy produces HARD DATA , Pls do your shopping and get all the positive results and be happy. I am NOT against Aaron or any person here, but cant hlp if I hurt someones beliefs...

Anybody interested in Truth, read this commoner article at http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_110475/article.html

"Flow in a curved duct is subjected to centrifugal force. For a given velocity, the fluid molecule is subjected to the least force by staying to the outside of the duct. However, this does not occur. A second force is also at work. The curvilinear velocity component that develops while the flow is turning, causes a second force. A pressure drop, due to this turn-induced velocity, is the source of this second force. Bernoulli's equation (a special form of the energy equation) relates kinetic energy to potential energy. In a fluid system this potential energy is pressure and kinetic energy depends on the square of the velocity. Therefore, the local pressure drops with the square of the velocity increase. Low pressure, from the turning velocity component, pulls the flow to the inside wall of the duct. Turning accelerations are highest at the beginning and end of the turn. While turning velocity peaks at the middle of the turn. When conditions are right, a balance occurs between these two forces."

 

The point of the spacers in reality is to increase performance.
the dyno has shown that. All else is a byproduct and even if that is how it is claimed to be achieved, no proof is needed as it does it's intended function as has been proved on the dyno.

 

(which is what we've been trying to tell him)

 

I also like to thank you guys for derailing the thread completely lol. It's all good though, since I know I can count on you guys for information in the future as I try to upgrade my 3rd gen's ailing engine.

 

It's not all outrageous claims like those infomercials you see on PBS or late night TV. In any case cool guy, I'll take the max out to my friend's race shop to do the air temperature tests that you asking about and post the data in a new thread once I get it done. Before and after.

Yeah but theres way too many people out there that need antipsychotic, sleep aids, diabetic, blood pressure, and heart medication that you can't avoid going to a pharmacy in your lifetime. You can't honestly say you never been to the pharmacy once for an illness.

 

I kinda want the spacers because I've heard nothing but good things about them here. However I don't think I'll buy any seeing as I could probably rip engine apart and have the guys in my machining class (I'm in tech school for machining) make spacers, bore, port and anything else I want done to my car free of charge....of course I'm not inclined to do anything wild since I don't have access to anyone who do anything regarding the electronic aspects of a car. So tuning is out of the picture. Spacers wouldn't be so bad though.