sleepyvg30e

iTrader: (1)

i have recently been planning out how to swap my engine for a vg33e and bore out to 3.8 w custom pistons at 10.5-11.0:1 compression.

my question is about the supercharger option that came with that engine while researching different setups i came across the vortech V-4 supercharger and the OEM replacement M90 eaton supercharger these are two very different setups and i was wondering which would be best to run on that engine. i know factory runs the m62 but i want to get the best performance i can out of the engine and it will be a 3.8L engine as well.
i would like to run vortechs design because i will be able to fit it under the hood but i am more than willing to chop up the hood to fit the m90 in if necessary. also how much boost can the stock vg internals hold ive heard 10 psi one place and 25 psi in another place also take into account that it will bored out from 3.3L to 3.8L and will i have to do any customization to prevent the extra torque from tearing apart the FWD system

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

i have a few questions for you

where are you going to put a supercharger anyways? where the a/c compressor normally would go

also are you sure it's OK to supercharge on such high compression? turbo usually drop compression... i'd think the same would be needed for S/C

also are you sure the thinner walls of a 3.8 can take boost? why not bore it as a 3.6 for extra wall thickness?

BenStoked

iTrader: (7)

as caped said, where would you put it? the stock 33er may fit under the hood, it may not. how would you run the belt? there is no room for it.

and wall thickness/compression: are you sure the engine would handle it?
I have been considering this same thing, and have been thinking about these same things (probably what made him mention it). is 1/8th of an inch of wall gonna be enough? would high CR pistons blow my engine through the hood if I decided to boost? would it blow up through the cylinder wall?

if you dont know the answers to these, walk away, and do some more research.
you shouldnt be boosing an untested motor without any knowledge of what it would do to the engine.

Maxpwer

iTrader: (7)

Woah, back the maxima up. First, 10.5-11:1 compression + supercharger??? Clearly you dont understand the basics of boost. Secondly, you are asking what boost level STOCK internals will hold up to, but why since you will need custom pistons with your 3.8? 10psi on a T25 is nothing like 10psi on a T4 or 10psi on V4 so what you are really asking is how much flow. Again, boost basics. Also like others have said, if you want to boost the engine boring it out as far as possible (3.8L) is not advisable.

Your best bet is to boost the stock 3.0L or 3.3L motor which can handle more than 400HP.

Torgus

iTrader: (10)

i <3 m90 a 'good' SC i must say.

it would be the cheaper rout as you can buy em used all over the place.

personally i turbocharge the stock 3.0 and call it a day.

sleepyvg30e

iTrader: (1)

i actually have been considering lowering how much i bore the egine for fear that it wouldn't be able to handle nearly as much boost as the the stock which would ironically make it less powerful but are you sure 3.6 is enough would there be a way to determine how much wall thickness can be removed without dramatacally effecting the engine's strength


what exctly are the clearance issues besides the hood between what and what and wouldn't a battery removal solve this issue

so what im guessing your saying is that i should either bore the engine or raise compression but not do both at the same time if im supercharging and that flow is far more important than how much psi?

this is exactly why i dont wanna turbo

Torgus

iTrader: (10)

ahh so you don't want to be like everyone else? which i can fully respect.

goon9

iTrader: (13)

Another one of these threads huh... I knew it was that time of the month.

BenStoked

iTrader: (7)

I am unsure what you mean by "between what and what and wouldn't a battery removal solve this issue"; battery removal/relocation would not be a concern
I have a slight concern that the sc from the vg33er may not have enough clearance between itself and the hood, but this is a minor concern, which can be easily fixed.
my bigger concern with clearance, if you go take a look under the hood, there would be no clearance for any SC belts, unless you decided to eliminate one of the accessories, or something.

Torgus

iTrader: (10)

just have a custom pulley made for two belts...pretty cheap to have made also and semi common. i think a shop around here quoted me $70 bucks to have one made when i was thinking about trying to fit an M90 on my 3.5 which i quickly dropped that idea...

Spectre 4418 Double Belt Water Pump Pulley


like that kinda

or this

Billet Aluminum Crankshaft Pulley 69 Up SBC And 90 Deg V6 Chevy w/Long Water Pump 4.04 in. OD V-Belt Design Double Groove

96blkonblkse

iTrader: (18)

I think you have a lot of reading to do before you even attempt this project. You cant just bore out a engine from 3.3 to 3.8 liters. I dont know the thickness of the piston walls on the VG33, but remember, that most larger stroker kits, require a sleeve to be pressed in, in order to get the added displacement. You might be okay with the VG as it has an iron block, but i know the VQ's get sleeved along with most other motors.

Also boring alone will not give you the added displacement, the stroke is what helps a lot too. In which case, youd probably need to do a thicker headgasket, depending on how much you plan on adding to the stroke, custom rods, pistons, perhaps even a crank. adding displacement is not as easy as boring out an engine and throwing in new pistons..

For the M90, i would probably go with something a little bigger, the M62 is useless, they are too small for Cobalts/Redline let alone a 3.3. You can also go with a different blower, perhaps a lysholm or a diffeant eaton blower. The M90 will work better then the M62 though.

With the Vortech V4, you will need to mount it to the block still, so removing the battery might help, but you will also need a place for the blower to sit, its not a turbo it cant sit where the battery sits..its belt driven still. Im sure you knew that though.

The compression, 10.5 is high..11 is too high for a boosted motor, especially of that is stroked. You could run that compression, with a bit of boost my uneducated guess would be ~5-6psi, but anything more you and increase the chance of making your expensive stroker go bye bye. The VQ30 runs 10:1 stock, many people put down ~400 stock internals with no major problems, but if your going for huge results, with lots of boost, built the motor accordingly. If i were, id probably build it around 9:1 or even 8.5:1 depending on the boost you plan on running.

If you want an idea of what comes with a stroker kit. Check out AEBS 4.2L stroker for the VQ35. According to AEBS with there 11:1 NA stroker kit, they estimate about 385hp at the crank (340-350ish at the wheels), Boosted 9psi on a 350z 641whp..

Also if you look at there sight, pretty much all the displacement comes from the stroke (90MM vs 81MM). Because the turbo pistons are 100mm(stock is 95.5mm), and give the displacement of 4213.16cc, while the NA pistons of 101.5mm give the engine a total displacement of 4269.35cc. The difference of 56.19cc, and a 1.5mm larger piston.

http://www.aebsracing.com/products.p...ct=vq35stroker

BenStoked

iTrader: (7)

IDK about sleeving being needed for the 3.8L vg, but you may (or may not) be right
http://www.z31performance.com/forum/...8dfbab#p110238
the guy who "discovered" the maximum bore says we should be able to put a 99mm piston in there. (he seems to know a thing or two about engines, and doenst seem to mention sleeving it), which puts the displacement, with a stock stroke (83mm) at 3833cc. (http://www.bgsoflex.com/cgi-bin/disp...de=Millimeters)

if you want to use the eaton SC, there is a stroker kit for the vg33 (by paeco, but I cannot find much more info on it, atm), taking the stroke to 89.4, resulting in 4129cc (http://www.bgsoflex.com/cgi-bin/disp...de=Millimeters)

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

hell if I know

go get like 10 VG33 blocks and try 5 different configurations so you have 2 of each... s/c one and n/a the other. run all of them until the weaker ones blow up and see what configurations are still left standing.

this is just another classic case of someone with limited mechanical knowledge asking "well how do i [something that's never been done before] and what do i need to make it work???". Hell if we know?! Try it and tell us how it went!

96blkonblkse

iTrader: (18)

Yeah. I just read that, quite interesting. Those Z31 guys kinda remind me of the talon/eclipse group of people (going fast on a tight budget put nicely). You get the few guys who put out the big money, but most of them dont. Besides the point, maxima owners are that much different.

In all honesty, i have seen VG33 piston walls, they seemed thick, but ive never seen the internals of a VG30E, so i couldnt compare. But if indeed the piston walls are that thick on the 33, you could probably bore that thing out quite a bit. I dont know if id run 90mm pistons, just something that pushes it that close, id hate to blow it, and redo the whole block. I think id stay on the safe side and go with something on the more conservative side.

Anyways to the OP, good luck if you build it! Id be more concerned about getting the VG33 to run first, i dont know enough about the VG series to give you enough information if theyd bolt on. One instinct would say yes, similar block, but RWD vs FWD. Im sure if it was easy to do, more people would do it on the otherhand. So good luck, and build a sick motor and rep the 3rd gen!

Torgus

iTrader: (10)

i'd just like to say the M90 will do just fine. this is directed to those who think it's to weak:

yes there are other blowers out there which are better but they are all much more expensive. please correct me if i'm wrong, but none come even near the price/performance ratio of an M90. buy a used one and a rebuild kit all for $300 bucks shipped.

the 3800 guys got a gran prix to run 11.4 with the M90(yes it was ported but you can do that for free with an hour's spare time and a dremel) also A heavy **** bonnieville(around 700lbs more then a turd gen) ran 12.1 with a M90. granted those were on pushrod 3.8s but it should do fine for his application.


on a side note i'd just like to say this will never happen.

Greeny

iTrader: (43)

.

Torgus

iTrader: (10)

are you agreeing or disagreeing greeny?

a . doesn't mean a thing. i don't understand...were you agreeing? disagreeing? or just to quote me to reinforce what i said?

i'v seen so many threads in the 3rd gen area of this forum, as have all of us, all about these crazy build ups and nothing ever happens. I'd love to see it accomplished but i doubt any of us will ever see it come to fruition.

Greeny

iTrader: (43)

.

sleepyvg30e

iTrader: (1)

well that sounds a lil expensive what about this is a m90 on a stock vg30 whats really stopping that modification other than a custom hood and custom pulleys i can stuff as much safety equipment in there as i can to measure everything and make sure it dont blow up then slowly increase displacement with some cheap block work and see how close to a 90mm bore i can get to

"You don't have to drop $$ to get machine work done, basic stuff like crank grinding and boring/honing is cheap, but also, cheap can be relative. our shop charges 89$ to grind a crank, and 10$ per hole to bore and 5$ per hole to hone, 50$ to surface each deck... so you could get away with a totally machined block and ground crank for under 300 bucks. Most prices are similar to ours, except for the big name race guys who do machine work, and all you're paying for there is a name."

from there i can eventually get the $10,000 engine from paeco but i might as well get the vg33e and hopefullly bore to 99mm but when i go to paeco since its really as experimental as you all say it is then they should be able to help and tell me what the actual block will be able to withstand, really they should just be able to tell me exatcly how thick the cylinder walls should need to be to acheive proper boost on that specific engine that way i can run max boost on a supercharger which would probably result in a larger s/c tha the m90

"VG33 has THICK walls.. they measured out at about .300ish thickness on a stock bore block. You could bore a VG33 all the way up to 99mm if you wanted to and you'd still have 5/32" to 1/8" cylinder walls. That would make it a 3.8 liter!!! haha "

if i find out however that the bore cant go past a certain point without dramtically effecting the supercharger then i can try simple 1mm bore, stroker kit, custom pistons etc..

it might be possible to go even higher than 4129cc but i wanna focus on letting the largest s/c possible get as much room as it can without blowing to ****


if an m90 plus a rebuild kit is only 300 then i can begin experimenting with that i cant imagine that setup costing more $2000 with the hood and everything else i guess my real question is why has no one done this before...
i keep getting the feeling like im missing something

BenStoked

iTrader: (7)

the biggest difficulty with adding the M90 eaton is the crank snout (the part the SC pulley on the crank) is longer on the vg33er engine than it is on the vg30e for the maxima. if you take a look under the hood, there is little room there, much less adding the additional length of the required crank. it can be done, mebe, but cutting the fender well on the passenger side would be required, and it may be more work than most people would like to engineer.

Torgus

iTrader: (10)

dumping 10k into a turg gen = failz but anyways...

a used M90 is like 200 or so, a rebuild kit is cheap as well it probably doesn't need a rebuild but you might as well as it's cheap. as far as the block i say keep the block stock and see what you can put down with just headers, mild headwork, and a good tune. assuming it all works your going to be in the 300+ whp club.

you are going to need a custom LIM to get it to fit(which i assume you know) as well as a few small other things...but as far as the snout being a problem just move the SC back with the custom LIM...

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

of course it is. R&D is almost always expensive. but for something we've never done... on a car that most say can't be supercharged... you should just be quietly doing this in your garage. or reading or at least waiting for someone else to confirm the VG38 can hold decent boost.

BenStoked

iTrader: (7)

and on top of getting it all to fit, you have to get the ECU to work with it all, and run...

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

and on top of all of THAT

it's still FWD.

sleepyvg30e

iTrader: (1)

okay so a custom lim ecu swap(which was gonna be done anyway) keep compression below 10:1 and a custom hood and custom pulley's

i still dont see a problem here....

okay so if i really wanna make it a 3.8 (or apparently a 4.1 with the right stroker kit) i should leave it N/A because i can get more power leaving it a stock and boosting it as much as possible

but c'mon i still feel like something is missing

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

what is your TRUE goal?

1) making the biggest possible VG engine, cuz it's never been done (more displacement, less or no boost)
2) making a stupid amount of power so your car will be fast as hell (less displacement, more boost)
3) somewhere between the two

DanNY

iTrader: (14)

1. do it
2. take pics
3. prove us wrong

w/o reading everything...
high comp + thin cyl walls + boost = big expensive mess

BenStoked

iTrader: (7)

initforpicsandvideo!