why does it do this?
09-16-2009, 11:34 AM
#1
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why does it do this?
my 3rd gen has done this crap for about 2 years now. it all started back then when one day i turned the key and it didnt start. I checked everything and it was all good. gave up and called AMA. the guy rocked it back and forth hard and it started, he said its a loose wire and nothing to worry about.
it happens about once every 2 weeks now, it wont start when i turn the key, get out, rock it aggressively back and forth, and it starts. yesterday it did it and it took me half a hour to get it going, i heard a click after i rocked it for the final time and it started
is it the parking pawl or what? its happened about 2 dozen times in total and its usually only when i park on flat surfaces. when i throw it in park i always gently wiggle it so i know its fully in park
it happens about once every 2 weeks now, it wont start when i turn the key, get out, rock it aggressively back and forth, and it starts. yesterday it did it and it took me half a hour to get it going, i heard a click after i rocked it for the final time and it started
is it the parking pawl or what? its happened about 2 dozen times in total and its usually only when i park on flat surfaces. when i throw it in park i always gently wiggle it so i know its fully in park
09-16-2009, 11:48 AM
#3
+1, they can be accessed above the catalytic converter and cost $4 or something at the stealership.
When you are parking your car, with your foot on the brake, put it in Park, and before you lift your foot off of the brake, pull the E-brake up to where the car won't rock when you take your foot off of the brake. Basically holding the car and the axles in park where you left it.
When you are parking your car, with your foot on the brake, put it in Park, and before you lift your foot off of the brake, pull the E-brake up to where the car won't rock when you take your foot off of the brake. Basically holding the car and the axles in park where you left it.
09-16-2009, 03:38 PM
#4
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sounds like the shifter bushings are done for or missing. if this happens just push the button the shifter in and push the shifter forward a few times and then start the car. i had this problem as well but then i converted to 5 speed.
09-16-2009, 04:11 PM
#5
^^^ To expand on what he said, I had the same issue about 10 years ago in my original VE auto. I used to have to put it in neutral, then back into P (or varying combinations of the two), and then it would start
09-16-2009, 06:33 PM
#7
besides if that were the case he'd be able to hear the starter whirring uselessly.
09-16-2009, 06:49 PM
#8
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I disagree, you would get a little movement there because its still connected via ATF fluid even if its not under full pressure. Also I suggested the starter gear is not extending enough to engage the ring gear, maybe I'm wrong but I thought the starter does not spin until its fully entended?
09-16-2009, 07:15 PM
#9
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Have you ever tried to move the ring gear by hand?... It's not something that would move around by itself and "rocking the car" would not make it change position either...
If the vehicle is not starting and shifting in and out of gear makes it start then as it's already been stated... it's the shifter bushing
uppet:
If the vehicle is not starting and shifting in and out of gear makes it start then as it's already been stated... it's the shifter bushing
uppet:
Last edited by kringle03; 09-16-2009 at 07:21 PM.
09-16-2009, 07:25 PM
#10
I disagree, you would get a little movement there because its still connected via ATF fluid even if its not under full pressure. Also I suggested the starter gear is not extending enough to engage the ring gear, maybe I'm wrong but I thought the starter does not spin until its fully entended?
I actually just tested your theory on my way to get dinner. At 50mph (far far far faster than the wheels would move if you rocked the car), I shut the key off while the car was in D. I could still hear the engine spinning. I moved the shifter into N. The engine stopped. I turned the key back on. Speed 50mph, tach 0RPM. I moved the shifter into D, then 2, then L. Speed 50mph, tach 0RPM.
as for the starter spinning before/after it's extended... the starter extends due to the helical grooves on the motor shaft and starter gear. the motor shaft spins first and the spiral shape of the grooves causes the starter gear to move outward. then once the engine catches and starts, the ring gear spins the starter gear faster than the starter motor shaft, which shoves the starter back toward the starter. of course if you keep holding the starter it will keep trying to extend to the ring gear and keep getting kicked back by the ring gear really fast... which is the grinding sound you hear.
cliffs: it's not the ring gear
Last edited by CapedCadaver; 09-16-2009 at 07:47 PM.
09-16-2009, 09:24 PM
#11
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I almost always use the Ebrake when i park, it holds a bit but not much (when i first got the Max i got my H/U installed and they threw on the Ebrake and i never noticed and drove on it for a few minutes), it holds decently for parking but if i went on slushly snow and ripped it i couldnt powerslide a bit
I also have to wiggle the shifter to get into drive, I have to wiggle it down a bit before it engages and then its all good
any longterm effects of not replacing the shifter bushing?
I also have to wiggle the shifter to get into drive, I have to wiggle it down a bit before it engages and then its all good
any longterm effects of not replacing the shifter bushing?
09-16-2009, 10:45 PM
#13
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can the play in the shifter bushings also be adjusted out a little by playing with the linkage adjustment (under the middle of the car)? I just replaced my auto tranny and shifing from P into D was loose. I over-adjusted and now when I shift from D back towards P, it doesn't engage perfectly into R. So I'll tweak the adjustment one more time. I also WAY over-adjusted it the other way, and postion N actually put the car in reverse. It's a bit of a trick to find the sweet spot.
09-17-2009, 07:15 AM
#15
can the play in the shifter bushings also be adjusted out a little by playing with the linkage adjustment (under the middle of the car)? I just replaced my auto tranny and shifing from P into D was loose. I over-adjusted and now when I shift from D back towards P, it doesn't engage perfectly into R. So I'll tweak the adjustment one more time. I also WAY over-adjusted it the other way, and postion N actually put the car in reverse. It's a bit of a trick to find the sweet spot.
this is what it looks like without a bushing. big hole, tiny pin. so you see that if you move the shifter there is slack on either side before anything starts to move the cable. then when you push the stick back the other way, the slack goes to the opposite side.
honestely dude? it's f*ckin $4 worth of parts... why the hell NOT fix it? if that's the best advice you've got, then don't bother giving it....
09-17-2009, 07:48 AM
#17
09-17-2009, 12:33 PM
#18
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Your helical gear explanation makes sense but I dont think I've ever seen helical gears on a starter. I will however concede I was wrong about the gear. This is my first slushbox and I guess its pretty different. I am confused about your experiment, I was told at some point you could push start an auto if you pushed it fast enough, guess thats fiction too.
no... you wouldn't get any movement. I understand where you're coming from, but you forgot to account for the way clutches and bands in an a/t work. see, it doesn't matter how much fluid is just sitting in the trans case, if it's not pressurized it CANNOT actuate the clutches or bands, and thus cannot engage a gear. If you cannot engage a gear, you cannot transmit torque from the wheels to the torque converter. Now, if you managed to modify the tranny (would destroy it of course) so that, say, 2nd gear were permanently engaged (by welding and whatnot) then the wheels could MAYBE move the engine, because of the ambient fluid in the t/c... so i think that's what you were thinking. But without a gear engaged, nothing can happen.
I actually just tested your theory on my way to get dinner. At 50mph (far far far faster than the wheels would move if you rocked the car), I shut the key off while the car was in D. I could still hear the engine spinning. I moved the shifter into N. The engine stopped. I turned the key back on. Speed 50mph, tach 0RPM. I moved the shifter into D, then 2, then L. Speed 50mph, tach 0RPM.
as for the starter spinning before/after it's extended... the starter extends due to the helical grooves on the motor shaft and starter gear. the motor shaft spins first and the spiral shape of the grooves causes the starter gear to move outward. then once the engine catches and starts, the ring gear spins the starter gear faster than the starter motor shaft, which shoves the starter back toward the starter. of course if you keep holding the starter it will keep trying to extend to the ring gear and keep getting kicked back by the ring gear really fast... which is the grinding sound you hear.
cliffs: it's not the ring gear
I actually just tested your theory on my way to get dinner. At 50mph (far far far faster than the wheels would move if you rocked the car), I shut the key off while the car was in D. I could still hear the engine spinning. I moved the shifter into N. The engine stopped. I turned the key back on. Speed 50mph, tach 0RPM. I moved the shifter into D, then 2, then L. Speed 50mph, tach 0RPM.
as for the starter spinning before/after it's extended... the starter extends due to the helical grooves on the motor shaft and starter gear. the motor shaft spins first and the spiral shape of the grooves causes the starter gear to move outward. then once the engine catches and starts, the ring gear spins the starter gear faster than the starter motor shaft, which shoves the starter back toward the starter. of course if you keep holding the starter it will keep trying to extend to the ring gear and keep getting kicked back by the ring gear really fast... which is the grinding sound you hear.
cliffs: it's not the ring gear
09-17-2009, 05:02 PM
#19
Your helical gear explanation makes sense but I dont think I've ever seen helical gears on a starter. I will however concede I was wrong about the gear. This is my first slushbox and I guess its pretty different. I am confused about your experiment, I was told at some point you could push start an auto if you pushed it fast enough, guess thats fiction too.
09-17-2009, 05:13 PM
#20
Your helical gear explanation makes sense but I dont think I've ever seen helical gears on a starter. I will however concede I was wrong about the gear. This is my first slushbox and I guess its pretty different. I am confused about your experiment, I was told at some point you could push start an auto if you pushed it fast enough, guess thats fiction too.
kinda like this: http://www.dansmc.com/starter3.jpg
it must depend on the design... because 50mph imo is "seriously fast" when trying to push start a car. but since the clutches and bands cannot engage the gears, the t/c isn't even gonna spin...at least not on any 3rd gen maxima and/or 3rd gen camry a/t. unless you're saying that the bearing friction (or perhaps proximity-related cltuch/band friction) is what you're relying on to get the t/c to spin.
09-17-2009, 08:01 PM
#21
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i'll get it fixed on my next day off, i'm sick of it. ive been worried it would do it at a bad time (so far the worst has been right before i had to go to work but i got there on time still), and ive been worried in the drive-in carwash where you shut off your car it will happen or something. just now i went to get gas and it did it, looks a bit awkward buttraping your car to get it going infront of 20 people
09-20-2009, 05:56 AM
#22
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Although I agree it may very well be the shifter bushing, usually the first complaint of this is the transmission not shifting into D until you pull the shifter into 2 or 1. Another possibility is the starter motor brushes. In a 5sp, rocking the car with it in gear is a common way to get a car with bad starter bushes to start. The other common diagnosis of this (when it won't start), is to get someone to hold the key on start and give the starter a hit with a small hammer/spanner/pliers or similar, if it immediately cranks and starts, then it is probably the starter brushes.
