wpendl1

Does anyone have experience with the VE30DE timing chain, and timing marks. My VEs cam timing marks don't line up. They seem to be off nearly half a tooth. With the Crank at TDC, the arrows on the caps don't line up with the dots on the cam sprockets... grrrr. I've heard of chains stretching, and want to confirm that other people have seen this.
More information, i noticed this after rebuilding the VTCs and putting them back on. I'm 100% sure that the VTCs were reassymbled correctly. They were done once before 10 years ago by a shop, and the markings were still there. I verified they lined up before the rebuild, and after the rebuild.
Has anyone else replaced the timing chains? I've read up on the job, and I know it involved removing both heads and the oil pan to get to the lower timing chain cover.
Is it worth the $250~ in parts, or should I just get a lower mileage JDM replacement to drop in. My engine has 180000 miles on it.

Mysticcal

VE timing chains are pretty much lifetime.

VTC temp fix is grounding them / changing oil

if either part breaks the engine is fairly gone. I'd swap.

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

When I rebuilt my engine at 222,xxx miles, the timing chains were still in good shape. I measured the free length per the manual, and they were within spec. I forget what the numbers are, but they were still in good shape.

In your case, are both upper chains off by the same amount? I wonder if the lower chain has jumped a tooth or if you don't have it set perfectly on TDC. I do remember mine being *close* but slightly off center- less than half a tooth though, so it was pretty obvious which way was up.

And yes.. to remove the chains, you have to pull the front timing cover off. The head gaskets are used to seal between th elower and upper timing cover (and the chains run in a pocket in the end of the gasket), so you would have to pull the heads in order to put it all back together properly. I tried it without doing that and how have a pretty ugly oil leak on the timing cover where I slightly damaged the head gasket after thinking my timing was off so I pulled the lower cover. THEN I realized I couldn't get it back together easily. doh.

so umm yeah. if you want to pull the chains, you'll need to pull the heads. At that point, you might as well do a hone & re-ring and bearings and have an almost new engine for another day's work.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

When I took my motor apart, the marks didn't line up either but the motor ran fine so I marked them and put them back exactly the way they were.

IF you motor runs strong, I wouldn't worry about it. It's a HUGE pain to redo the chains with the motor in.

wpendl1

Do you recall if the marks were off on the retarded side (marks on cam rotated slightly counterclockwise)? The rear head timing marks are actually off a little more than the front head. But I am guessing this is due to the VTC. They were both rebuild 10 years ago, but the rear was rebuilt wrong. The oring was not put inside like it should have been, and I'm guessing caused premature failure, and increased stress on the chain.

The engine does run fine, but has a lack of power on the low end (under 3000 rpms) Unfortunatly I've only had the car for a short time and am not familiar to how it should run, but a buddy of mine has a GXE and his feels so much stronger on the low end than mine.

I want the car to run like it should, not just acceptable. So it's not an option to just leave it as is.

I guess I need help drawing the line from those who have the experience. Matt brought up a very good point, If I have the heads off, a couple more hours work and I could replace the bearings, rings, and re-hone the cylinders... then I could also replace the valve guide seals, and regrind the valves. Machine work on the heads gets pretty pricy. Is it worth doing all this work, or am I better off just swaping it out for a JDM. There are several in California I can get for $500 plus shipipng ($120 - $150) and they CLAIM to have less than 60K miles on them.

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

yeah they CLAIM to have less than 60k on them. on a car this old, they'll have more like 160k on them OR they'll be completely crusted with rust from sitting on a shelf for 10 years.

IMO, I'd rebuild the engine unless you can find a confirmed good donor engine.

Cliff Clavin

iTrader: (11)

You can ask MrGone about lining up the chains properly.


Jeff did my engine replacement with a JDM engine back in 2004. Matt is right that a lot of them are a bit crusty. The first one delivered to Jeff didn't look so good and he made them send another one. IIRC, Jeff or another .org member personally inspected it before it was shipped (Seattle area).

My JDM also developed VTC tick after a couple of years. It runs great, otherwise. I don't know if the VTC springs go weak from sitting a long time or if the engine had more miles than the importer claimed.

If you can visually inspect a JDM engine first, it is well worth you time to take a look under the valve cover gaskets an check on a few other things.

Keep in mind that you will still be buying other stuff for a JDM swap like a lot of gaskets, hoses, water pump, etc. There is a lot of info on the JDM swap in the stickies.

Just some things to think about.

JC93SE

Out of the blue... I jump in...

I hate to ask, but did you test the knock sensor? Major low end power loss. Either jump it with a 470K resistor or tear in and replace it.

JC93SE

I just replaced VTCs, chains, gears, tensioners last weekend. I haven't fired it up yet. My observations:

I didn't even notice if the marks on the VTCs lined up with the cap arrows. I scribed the cams with the caps at TDC and replaced everything- then checked that everything came back after putting the chains and gear back together.

The new VTC on the rear is off maybe half a tooth from what it was... but that old VTC had come apart (future post) so I'm OK with that.

I did not pull the heads. I put some RTV between the head gasket and the head (thinking back- should have been more meticulous about it) and RTV'd the top of the timing cover. We'll see how it turns out.

It is a pain to do chains from the view of having to remove almost everything from the outside of the engine, and suspend the engine to remove the crossmember to remove the oil pan, etc. But you do what you have to do.

wpendl1

Are the head gaskets metal? Do you think that it would have worked better if you cut the part of the head gasket away that extends over the chain cover, then use RTV to fill in where the gasket was? I haven't attempted yet of course, but going by theory, it seems the fit of the chain caver back on would be tight due to the gasket, and the RTV would just scrape off as you squeze the cover back in. I'm still deciding on weather to pull the heads or not since it's another $80.00 for the head gaskets and $40 or so for the intake and exhaust gaskets.

JC, you replaced the VTCs instead of rebuilding them? Did you notice considerable wear between the old gears and the new ones?

Thanks everyone for your feedback!

wpendl1

Ok, I had a chance to read up on the knock sensor. I don't have any codes, one of the first things i checked, the high end power does not seem effected, and my gas mileage seems to be pretty good (300miles +per tank). It sounds like there is no way to check it without plugging in consult (taking to the dealer). So I guess it's a jump the terminal with a 470K ohm resister and see if it makes a difference kind of thing?
I'll go get a resistor before deciding to pull the heads of. Then if the sensor is bad, I can fix it at the same time.

Again, thanks!

JC93SE

I'm not sure what the gaskets are. A little bit stuck to the cover, and they're sensitive to brake clean. I wonder if that may be another idea. I'm not sure there is a perfect technique there. Even now I'm replaying what I could have done different... now that it's all back together and I don't want to take apart again. I was going for more of a friction-fit with what ever little bit of RTV didn't squeeze out after the cover slid on. As I recall, I still had a little clean up of RTV closer to the block. Without the gasket, there's more of a gap to fill with a bead but maybe a bead none-the-less. Either way, the idea probably is to put some on both surfaces


Yeah, and the knock sensor and the KS harness while you're there. Pulling the heads was further than I wanted to go, even though I'm going in after my KS. Sure, what's a few more bolts and nuts at that point? ... and broken exhaust studs, and...

One of the VTC caps had broken apart... luckily the three pieces fell in the right places... no damage besides cracked valve cover and some ground steel and aluminum (fingers crossed on metal in engine). After years of reading about VTCs, I wanted perfect new ones. I put 110k on the car, and they were clattering when I bought it. It also appeared that the job had been done before: black RTV where grey should have been on the upper covers. I'll (maybe) rebuild the one good one, and the other good one on my other 93SE where the VTC pieces *didn't* fall so lucky.

I probably went "over the top" with the new chains and gears... they all looked fine- some minor wear on the gears- probably could have gone *another* 240K. I know my engine and I wanted it to be "right", "perfect", and to never have to wonder if I should have done more. Now it's new again, and I have spare parts to replace the broken stuff on the other one (not sure about the valves on that one yet, though)

JC93SE

I don't have my manual handy, but you test between one of the pins on the connector and ground for resistance. If it's out of spec (forget what- >2M Ohm?) then it's bad. The 470K is supposed to be close to what a new one tests out to be and fools the ECU (must run premium fuel then for sure).

I've watched timing on a SnapOn scan tool before- seen it get pulled back to like 10 deg AFTER TDC under throttle with a bad KS. The ECU pulls more timing with more throttle so that it feels like less and less power as you ease your foot in it. Then the engine comes up on cam at about 3000 RPM and it doesn't feel as bad, but still not as good as it could be.

BTW: check for crack(s) in the VTC caps. If one is cracked, it won't work, no low end power. Same problem in my other 93 before the catastrophe.

JC93SE

A few years ago, a pack of five resistors was 99 cents at Radio Shack. If the KS is "a" problem, it's definitely less expensive and a lot less labor intensive.

BTW: you won't have to pull the heads, just the water pump, the compressor to get the WP in and out, the intake, the fuel rails, the manifold, the water pipe...

wpendl1

Right, but If I pull the IM to get to the heads, the KS is right there. If I get as far to replace the KS, I'd just have to remove the exhaust manifolds, and exhaust cams to get the heads off.

Are the cracks in the vtc cap easy to see?? I didn't notice any when I was pressing them apart and back together... Oh wait, the VTC kit came with new caps.

JC93SE

I wonder if you even need to pull the exhaust manifold on the front head- or am I missing a bolt somewhere?

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

You don't need to, but it will make it a lot easier to get the head out of the car. exh mani is a heavy bish. and there may be a couple small screws along the edge of the head holding it to the block. I know there's a couple w/ 10mm heads on the ends.

wpendl1

OK, I finally got around to pulling things apart and ordering parts. Looks like I still need to get a front main seal, and an oil pan gasket, oh and the correct timing chains. I ordered a timing chain "kit" from an ebay seller that included all of the guids, tentioners, and chains. After opening the chains they are only one link wide. They should be two links wide!
For those of you who have already been through this mess, where did you get your chains from? The dealer wants about $50 per chain and they have to be ordered in. I'm not opposed to going this route, but am looking for better solutions.
Thanks

JC93SE

I think I posted on here a few months back before I ordered my parts. I think someone had said he used Cloyes chains and had problems and went back to OEM.

I just replaced all of the gear and chain in one of my 93's while replacing the VTCs because I wanted to go overboard and be perfect- should fire it up today. The parts I took out are in such good shape after 240K (except the VTCs internally) that if I fix my other 93 (VTC cap broke apart, jammed up the chain, stripped the idler, f/u the valves?) that I'll just reuse what I have from the first car. That 240K engine has been pretty well maintained.

I've gotten to the point on a lot of things- especially things that I can't get to easily- to stick with what I know works rather than hoping something else works as well or well-enough. Maybe others know better than me about aftermarket chains and how good they are, but I'm OEM on this one.

Check everythingnissan.com and nissanparts.org for pricing comparison if you haven't already.

wpendl1

Thanks JC. So you did order the chains from Nissan? Does $50 each sound about right? Well there's another week delay in the process, waiting for Nissan to order the parts.
Everything else, gaskets and such, I've stuck with getting from nissan, I don't take chances on gaskets, especially VCG and head gaskets. I hate oil leaks with a passion.

JC93SE

The chains were ~$46 and $44 each, plus the shipping (with everything else in the box) from a dealer in Scottsdale. Could have shaved a buck on each somewhere else.

Lapajgo

Anybody intrested I've got the Head Haskets - $30 bucks.

wpendl1

JC, more help please. I just don't know why these chains are such a problem for me.... I finally got the correct chains, matched them up with the old chains and sure enough, the old ones are just slightly longer than the new ones. About 3/16 " on each chain. I put the new chains on and at TDC the timing marks are where they should be, The cam marks line up with the caps.
Here is where I'm strugling. On the chain there are silver links that should line up with the timing mark on the cam sproket. If I line the cam marks up with the silver links (marked tooth between the two rollers with silver cap) then the exhaust cam mark does not line up with the arrow on the cap. If I bring the exhaust cam back one tooth, all the timing marks line up. I've compared the chains, they are idintical as far as the silver and gold colored marks. And the instructions I've seen with diagrams show there should be 12 rollers between the two cam sproket timing marks. In order to get the timing marks to line up, I only have 11 rollers between cam sproket marks.
JC, did you use the silver chain links to set the timing?? Did you experience the same issue?
Also, yes, all other marks line up. The lower chain marks lined up with the differnt colored links. And the top chain lines up with the bottom mark on the idler sproket.

Tonight I'm going to put the pan back on, engine mounts, PS pump, alt and bracket.. everything else except the VC and IM. Until I can figure this out for sure.

JC93SE

F!!!

I just hit the back button on my mouse and lost everything I typed.

The short version:

If you restate what you said above you get something like this:

If you line the cam marks up with the silver links and the EXHAUST cam mark is lined up with the arrow on its cap, then the INTAKE cam mark doesn't line up with the arrow on its cap.

Think about it.

I'm not going to retype the long version. PM me and we can talk some time if you really want to.

Experience often trumps intelligence- hopefully someone with more experience (or both) will offer some of it here.

Lapajgo

Anybody know if the chain skips the valves get crushed by the piston ?
I just did my intake gaskets and valve cover gasket and I notice that the back chain hit and scrape the valve cover

wpendl1

Depends on how many notches on the gear the chain skips...
How did the chain hit the VC if the top chain guide is in place?? that is the three bolt piece that goes over top the chain between the two cams.

Lapajgo

Have no idea, I guess I'm gonna have to lift the engine to figure it out.
All I know is that there are broken plastic peaces next the tensioner - that's all I can see from the top. And the VC is scaped where the VTC is - I don't know if that means that the chain skips.

wpendl1

Take a picture so we can see what your talking about. The tentioner has a plastic piece on it where the chain rides on it. Maybe that came apart.
What were your initial symptoms to make you check it? Was the car running bad, or was it just making noises?

Lapajgo

It's been running worse and worse, I was hoping it's a intake leak. Then when I changed the back VC gasket it was there - scared the hell out of me.

I'm gonna look for a camera and send you some pics.

wpendl1

OK, here are some pictures to better explain.
First here are the pictures of the sprocket marks lined up with the silver chain links like the instructions say to do. if you notice, the exhaust cam does not point up, it is one tooth off from the cap arrow. I have made silver marks to extend the arrows and also to highlight timing marks.
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...tplftmarks.jpg
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...tcainmarks.jpg
Bottom timing marks lined up like they should be on the chain:
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...idlermarks.jpg
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...mchainmark.jpg

Now, if I turn the exhaust cam back one tooth to line up with the bearing cap arrow:
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...prtexchain.jpg
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...inmarksadj.jpg

Here is the old chain laying on top of the new chain to show the silver links are in the same place. I have compared all three chains with the old, no differences.
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...aparechain.jpg

The right bank is the same. In order to get the timing marks to line up (sprocket to cap arrow) I have to bring it back one tooth toward the center of the engine.

My head tells me to ignore the chain marks since they won't line up again after the first revolution but I am torn as to why would the instructions say to use the chain if it is wrong. Also note that the instructions say 12 rollers between cam marks, I have to decrease it to 11 rollers to get the marks to line up.

wpendl1

JC, I think I've found the problem!! I guess the arrows on the bearing caps are not alignment marks. So I'm going to put every thing back together with the based on the chain markings. It took a newly found friend / Nissan mechanic to help me come to this conclusion based on the cam lobe orientation, and that all the bearing caps have arrows on them. In the instructions I have, it says to "Add match marks" during dissasymbly. The picture illistrating this shows marks lining up with the arrows, I guess I just came to my own conclution that these should line up with the sproket timing marks.
Thanks again to everyone who pitched in to help!! Now the bad part. I won't have time to work on it again untill probably Sunday.

Lapajgo

What about the back head ? Can you send some pics.
I haven't touched my car yet it's kind of chilly outside, but when I saw your pictures I'm getting confidence.

wpendl1

Sorry for the delay, I got the cams and chains aligned last night.
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k.../frntlobes.jpg
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...reartiming.jpg

It's hard to see the rear timing marks on the sprockets, but the most important thing to look for since your chain links will not match is the cam lobes. Notice on the #1 cylinder, intake and exhaust lobes point toward each other at the same angle. Same thing on the front cames but using #4 cylinder, cam lobes should be at same angle.
If you use the arrows on the caps as a guide the intake came mark on the sprocket should be slightly past the arrow (toward center of engine), the exhaust cam marks should be slightly before the arrows on caps ( away from center of engine.
I hope this helps you.

Lapajgo

Just got the covers out, the broken parts were not the chain tensioner - it was the VTC that broke off. The cap is in tree peaces - is that normal ?

Lapajgo

Here's the leftovers, the chain grinded one of them:

JC93SE

Define "normal". I'm beginning to think it's pretty "normal" for a VTC that's been clattering for tens of thousands of miles.

If you got those pieces out of an engine that still ran, count yourself lucky. The engine I just did the VTCs and chains on had one cap that was in three pieces as well... some how two of the pieces landed together in a safe place with the third piece still clinging on and the engine still ran (cut up the valve cover though). My other one that doesn't run... well- that's why. A piece fell into the chain at the idler gear: "grrrrrrrnnnnt".

Lapajgo

I'm asking because it happend to me and I saw picture of the VTC kit that Nissan sell and for some strange reason they sell it with the cap. But now that you tell me you had the same problem - I guess it common problem.

P.S. I hope the VTC kit has more durable caps.

JC93SE

VTCs on the one engine clattered off and on for the 109K that I have owned it- and probably a few miles before that- before the one cap cracked. The other engine- I have service records from the previous owner that advised replacement 65K before the piece spun off into the chain- probably was noisy long before that- and those made more noise than the other engine.

I don't think "durability" is the issue. If you bang on something long enough, it will crack. Smack those caps- or directly transmit the vibration- millions of times (literally) from the inside with something harder and thicker and what do you think will likely happen?

This is how we learn, and I have now learned that a clattering VTC is destined for eventual failure: a little "ticking" time bomb. I haven't checked to see how many valves got beat up in the one engine yet.

Lapajgo

Where did you buy and how much was the VTC kit. Do you know good deals on it ?

Lapajgo

Considering how much one of the peaces was eaten out - i guess it was broken off for a "quite" a while, I wonder if the knocking was the chain eating it.