JRS89MAX

iTrader: (2)

What's up people? Been a while. Same Max on 245.000 miles. Anyway.

Since the winter of 2007 I have this problem. Battery only dies in the winter when is like under 30 deg. In the summer no problem. I have went through 3 batteries. Thinking its the battery. But I beleive its not. I boosted it up all last winter when it dies. Summer no problem. Or when its warm. I have clean the contacts changed starter alt . Who knows what else. in the summer I leave it alone because it never dies and forget about it. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Also I just boosted up yesturday and today. I beleive 3 to 5 times this winter. Last winter maybe under 7. but still the same battery.

BenStoked

iTrader: (7)

only thing I can think of would be an intermittent short, due to the cold contracting something, and draining the battery.
by "boost," do you mean charger?

JRS89MAX

iTrader: (2)

I give it a boost with my van. Battery cables.

James92SE

iTrader: (31)

Well, cold weather is the absolute worst on batteries. If your battery goes dead completely a few times over a winter, it's likely the battery is toast. It only takes a few completely drained batters coupled with extreme cold to permanently damage a battery.

When you say "boosted it up", what exactly are you doing? If your battery is completely dead, when you "boost it up", you've got to drive it probably a good 20-30 minutes to let the alternator charge the battery back up (and no don't just let it idle for a few minutes).

You can't just jump-start it once and expect it to start right up the next day. It takes a good bit of driving/revving to let the alternator do its thing, especially in extreme cold.

JRS89MAX

iTrader: (2)

Hey James. True. But why only in the winter? It was dead yesturday gave it a boost and drove for about an hour. This morning it was dead. When I see its gonna be cold outside. Im ready for a boost in the morning.

maxinout93

what type of battery are you using? How many cold cranking amps does it have? You may need to upgrade your battery to one with a higher cold cranking amp capacity(example. in the summer its fine, but when it gets cold if you only have 200 cold cranking amps it may not be enough juice in it to start the car in the extreme cold. So you may want to look at that. Just a thought though. I remember when I bought my car and my battery died if I left the lights on just a short period of time, or if it was really cold it would strain to start the car. So I replaced it with a New battery. It was smaller in size than the original battery, but I was low on cash, and needed a quick replacement, so I used it, then when I got some extra cash I exchanged it out for a OE one. Worked great ever since. If you have extra stuff like a stereo system or extra lights or fog lights, then it would be a great Idea to invest in a Good battery.

JRS89MAX

iTrader: (2)

This battery has 575 cc amps and 710 c amps. I had it upgraded thinking that was the problem. Tested the battery while the car was on 14. ? forgot
and car off 12. ? Even though I just had the car on.

Something is killing the battery.

JRS89MAX

iTrader: (2)

This morning the battery tested 11.69 with the car off. That should be enough to crank. But it didnt. I will change the starter today to see what happens without giving it a boost.

BenStoked

iTrader: (7)

had the same thing happen to me last night; battery tested at 11.8v, but the starter solenoid only clicked (was about 20*, and there was at least 1/4 inch + 4" snow covering the car). reset my clock and radio in the process
used my cousin's battery charger, gave it a good charge, and it cranked right up.
my suspicion is that since it is cold, it's not putting out the optimum cranking amps it needs to turn the motor.

my suggestion is to find a good charger, and give that a go. boosting (or jumping as we call it) doesn't charge the battery, and I imagine that you may not be giving it a good enough charge by just running around.

300zmax

Have you checked the cables? if they have corrosion in them then they may be draining you batteries

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

No, it was dead already - it should read 12.6V to be able to crank. Looks like you're having an electrical leak somewhere. Cold temperature also decreases battery capacity - it probably has enough to feed that leak in summer but not enough - in winter. You can measure the leakage current - take your key out of ignition, disconnect + cable and put ampermeter in series with the cable. Report what you observe here. I'd start worry if it exceeds 0.1A.

Most often leaks are inside the battery itself - the measurement above should clear this up.

michaelp

It should crank with just 10 volts, but not very fast. 11.3 volts was enough to start my Z31 3 times!

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

Well, if you're talking about voltage while cranking ('under load') - you're right. OP seemed to measure the voltage before cranking, so called 'open circuit voltage' and his value was below 'fully discharged' battery level. The interesting thing about lead- acid cell voltage is its value pretty much corresponds to the level of charge. Check this out yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery, the 'Voltages for common usages' part. This voltage is also temperature dependent and change in opposite direction with temperature. So if OP has temperature below 20C which is very likely then he should add something like 0.2V for each 10C to each Wikipedia value.

michaelp

Batterys was part of my electric class at automotive tech school. And no, I'm talking about prior to cranking. Cranking voltage generally drops below 11 volts (around 10.8 or so). Cold Cranking Amps is the amperage the battery could put out at 0F (-18c) and Cranking Amps is potential output at 32F (0C). Voltage is also lower at these points (could be in 11s), where the battery should be plenty to start the engine.

JRS89MAX

iTrader: (2)

Changed the starter. Two hours later car is dead. Took the battery to Autozone and tested good. Here it is 10 degrees and I changed the alt. Car started up. But lets see tomm. morning.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

Go back to school - or correct Wikipedia for that matter. Seriously, density of electrolite increases as temperature drops so does the voltage (it increases). Wikipedia correctly states this showing negative temp coefficient meaning voltage and temp change in opposite directions. I still have to see the battery able to crank engine with its open circuit voltage below 12v. In order to measure this voltage correctly you should disconnect the battery from major loads and let it rest for 5-10 minutes before measurement. Right after cranking it will show some value between 10.5V and its actual oc voltage, slowly increasing - quite useless for comparison.

michaelp

But you're thinking about it to technical. While wikipedia is correct on "fully discharged" it is still enough voltage to crank the engine. I've seen many cars crank with less than 11 volts even, it comes from living in New York... A SLI battery is not designed to get discharged that far, but it still is plenty to atleast crank the engine :P

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

How about measuring leak current - much less hussle than what you did. I doubt Autozone can see internal leak and it certainly can't see if something inside your car is draining your battery over night.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

I'm not only thinking - I was actually fixing these kind of problems for a while. Simple experiment - take a headlight lamp and connect to your battery (low beam, 55 watt), leave it there for 10 hours to discharge battery to the level you're talking about, connect it back and try to crank. I'd make sure you have a jump available at that point.

When Wikipedia says 'fully discharged' - it means so, there's nothing left there to crank anythiing. I also hope your voltmeter was calibrated - these cells are quite precise in their voltages.

BenStoked

iTrader: (7)

I know I have cranked (as in started engine) last summer, when I left the lights on for a few hours. prior to that, voltage was at 10.4, or so.
so by comparison, my car should have at least started last night.

and before you call me wrong, or crazy, I am using the same multimeter that I have used for a while. other 12v sources I test regularly (computer power supplies, wall warts, etc), are all only off by about .1v (accurate enough for my line of work, but not more than 10%).

quite frankly, I have seen Wikipedia be wrong often enough, I don't ever use it in an argument. for example, the entire 3rd gen section is missing anything non-USDM, and I thought I saw something off for the US spec stuff last time I checked. Wikipedia is fallible, only because idiots like to change stuff, as if they actually know better, when in fact, they are simpler than the keyboard they type on. not saying it is wrong, in this case, but it means jack **** when trying to argue a point.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

What doesn't? Anyway, the Wikipedia numbers match other sources I've seen on the subject if it matters. You won, though - I can't do this without arguments. I'd also like some of the stuff you currently having .

LvR

Why the aversion to do the right thing here?

You all masochists?

Measure the leakage current with the car off between any battery post and its terminal - anything more than 150mA is suspect.

Stop measuring and arguing about voltages and temperatures etc - yes in general its all basically valid, but the actual battery chemistry has such a huge influence on voltage readings under various temperatures and state of charge conditions that ANY argument based on measured voltages is actually useless.

If you want to do the right thing go get a cheap hydrometer, learn to use it, and then actually MEASURE the (ANY lead-acid!) battery's state of charge and condition by looking at the individual cells making up that battery - there simply is no other reliable way without making a lot of assumptions about individual battery chemistry and other parameters.

Stop wasting money by replacing starters, alternators, batteries etc etc etc - find the root cause and spend money on that only.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

At last - some common sense, thank you.

This whole discussion stemmed from my statement that at 11.XXV battery was 'fully discharged' so he is better off to find what did that instead of randomly replacing parts. OP seemed to acidently measured oc voltage correctly - after leaving battery alone overnight before the first crank. At least I assumed that.

A while ago I had an opportunity to look at hundreds of car batteries. There's strong relation between voltage and electrolite density provided the battery was filled in with correct electrolite. For example, one guy knowing that charged battery has higher electrolite density simply poured pure sulfuric acid there in order to increase it. That was really confusing - both density and voltage were off the charts, battery was new and still couldn't turn the starter or take a charge. He had alternator problem BTW.

One of the ways to calibrate digital voltmeters is to use special electrochemical cell with known voltage. What really suprised me - that voltage is known up to 5 digits if memory serves me right. This was not lead acid, of course.

What I'm trying to say is electrochemical cells are quite precise devices provided you measure their voltage under controlled conditions. This 'open circuit' voltage for the car battery can only be seen when battery had not been charged or discharged for at least 10 minutes before measurement. It has to 'calm down' so to speak. The usual precautions also apply - contacts should be clean, voltmeter- calibrated (or just known to be true), etc. Under these conditions voltage of a car battery matches those 'theoretical' numbers within +-0.2V. This is approx +-2% which is quite precise for such device. They match even better if you take temp into account. I often read here numbers which are easily off by 1-2V which is the whole universe in the world of the batteries. Usually they're direct consequence of the sloppy measurement and quite useless to make any conclusion.

michaelp

Every hear of a maintenance free battery? yeah, thats what we use now, you aren't going to be measuring the state of charge with a hydrometer on one. His issue seems to be a parasitic draw killing his battery, and nothing wrong with the battery.

LvR

Ever hear of the concept of reading? ............... isn't that exactly what I suggested?

So - YOU have a sealed battery eh? .............. does the OP?

JRS89MAX

iTrader: (2)

Well car didnt start this morning. Checked plugs dist. cap an rotor. spark plug cables.
What I noticed is I had those red and green protecters on the battery terminals.And I really had to push in the cables to make contact. So I took them out and cleaned up the terminals and cable ends. Also I tapeded up a speaker cable that was stripped in the trunk. Dont know if it was making contact with the metal. Just being cautious.

Dont know what to do next?

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

You measured voltage, so you must have a multimeter - why haven't you measured the leakeage current yet?

JRS89MAX

iTrader: (2)

Could you explain how I would go and doing that. Thanks

Also the car has been turning on today. Not like yesturday 2 hours later it was dead. I am thinking what I did to the terminals and cables. Not making good contact. Could the + and - cables be green inside? These are the originals.

I remember a long time ago I had a Datsun B210 and it wouldnt start. It had this cable going from the negative cable to the body of the car. A ground. So something told me to check it. It was green inside. I took it off and connected some speaker wire . Car started.

MaxiBronxBomber

See link>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Dead_batte..._mornings_only

Binford

Thats a good link, but all you have to do is put the meter on MA, this is miliamps, disconnect the positive terminal and connect the red wire of the meter to the battery and the other wire to the battery connector. Never start your car in this mode, you will pop the meter. Starter draws 60 plus amps. 100 to 200 MA is not going to kill your battery in the morning, but any higher than this and that could be your problem. To check another way just disconnect the battery for the night, if it starts you know something is ON in the car. Then you start popin fuses to see what the cause is, when the current drops to normal, you found your problem circuit. Of course when you start the car you should have 13.8+ volts, but no more than 14.3.

JRS89MAX

iTrader: (2)

[QUOTE=Binford;7399947]Thats a good link, but all you have to do is put the meter on MA, this is miliamps, disconnect the positive terminal and connect the red wire of the meter to the battery and the other wire to the battery connector. Never start your car in this mode, you will pop the meter. Starter draws 60 plus amps. 100 to 200 MA is not going to kill your battery in the morning, but any higher than this and that could be your problem. To check another way just disconnect the battery for the night, if it starts you know something is ON in the car. Then you start popin fuses to see what the cause is, when the current drops to normal, you found your problem circuit. Of course when you start the car you should have 13.8+ volts, but no more than 14.3.[/QUOTE

So when I do the first part. thats with the car on or off?

Also I had the car running today and disconnected the + cable car was still running. Tried the car 45 minutes ago . It started. will see tomm.

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

OFF

Binford

Disconnecting the battery while the car is on does test the alternator. However you should still measure it with a meter. The tests I spoke about are done with the car off. Because when the car is off you want to see if a bulb say in the glove box is on and you don't know it.
Got it!

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

I like your 'second way' better - just leave the battery disconnected overnight and if it won't start the car in the morning you need to replace it. No ampermeter is involved too.

JRS89MAX

iTrader: (2)

Well it didnt turn on today. So I started doing fuse by fuse. Everything was reading 11.92/11.93 . It would go slowly .89.90.91.92 etc.

When I took off the TURN fuse it shot up to 11.95 then 11.97.
So what the hell is the turn fuse?

Looking in my book. and google.

JRS89MAX

iTrader: (2)

Ok its the turn signal the fuse. Stupid me. Anyway. I checked all the connections for corrosion. Now the the voltage is reading the same. With the fuse in or out. I wonder what was it that I touched. Checked all the bulbs front and back and disconnected my stereo system. But when i disconnected the stereo it didnt matter voltage was going up in down

Max_5gen

iTrader: (2)

I give up. This thread alone has enough info to get yourself educated if only you were willing to ...

Binford

According to Interstate Batteries, your vehicle’s battery loses 33 percent of its power when the temperature dips below freezing and over 50 percent of its power when the temperature falls below zero. If your car starts in the morning after having it disconnected the cable, then you know its something in your car is draining it. This is where you figure out what the culprit is. If it doesn't start, you have a battery problem or a charging circuit problem. You also need to get your battery charged over night with a charger. Sometimes driving 20 minutes is not going to charge it all the way back up. I know when my RV battery gets below 12.00 volts, that is a danger sign. I don't know what a battery drops to when it freezing outside though. I'm looking. I don't think it should be below 12volts.

JRS89MAX

iTrader: (2)

Well this morning it started but with a little hesitation. Not completely dead like the other days. I kept the fuse out. Maybe the battery needs a good charge. One of my side light cables was exposed. Dont know if it was making some kind of contact. But I changed it. Also checked the voltage of the Turn fuse. No dips or rise in the voltage. Well give it a couple of days to see. I hope this was it.

JRS89MAX

iTrader: (2)

This morning it started nice and strong no hesitation. But without the fuse . Tonight will put the fuse and will see if the problem still exist.