OWhatAThrill

Merry Christmas all and just coming out from under the morphine from back surgery to realize it's only NINE days to Christmas...can you say PANIC? ANd now..like I have a CAR to GO Christmas shopping in.

Ok..well..you might remember the son totalled the 93 GXE back in Feb, flipped it coming round hill, then I bought a 93 SE. He hit the deer in early November, and just 30 minutes AFTER he came in to tell me of this latest wreck, the insurance lady called me to hopefully finalize the insurance issues with the deer wreck.

Seems he was coming down steep residential road in slight rain (and yes, needed new tires so I feel somewhat responsible), and came around a curve to find an 18 wheeler with an "OVERSIZED LOAD" sign on the front (but nothing on the trailer) and didn't have enough room to get by. Braked, brakes locked up, he skidded 120 feet, rolled the car twice with it landing on its side with wheels up against a fence.

He had bump and cut on head, his friend bruised. The passenger saved the branch that had come thru the windshield and stopped just mere inches from his head as a souvenir.

Going to see the car today or tomorrow. Am upset at police report as it only says "vehicle 1 driver say truck coming up hill, didn't think he had enough room, braked and skidded". I'm sorry, I think it should be noted that this was a tractor trailer truck on a deadend residential road coming around a curve. Police department said "they can't assign blame", and my argument was that you could at least note what I think are some very important FACTS in that report. I know son will still be assigned blame but if I had encountered the same truck on the same hill..I might have done the same. Granted my driving experience probably would have allowed me to deal with it, but thats not the point. If the tractor trailer was not totally on his side of the road as the son and his passenger, plus the friend they just dropped off, that should be noted somewhere. Wish I knew more how insurance companies worked. Course, we're also dealing with a cop talkign to the adult truck driver, and he's talking to juveniles. Plus the lady at our local insurance company called me and said the son was in her place within 30 mins of wreck and she was worried about him and the bump on his head. Said he "wasn't right"..and she knows him. I feel as my child was underage, I should have been at least called.

And insurance lady said she wasn't sure what would happen now..with the deer claim not even processed. Said they might have to pay the deer claim which was estimated at $2500 worth of damage (surprised they didn't total it) and was only disappointed that estimated included a salvaged radiator, and then pay this other claim with the $2500 of unrepaired damage noted. Sheesh..no telling when this will be solved...in meantime..I will hopefully get rental car next week.And do I want to press this issue with the tractor trailer or let my son get all the blame. Any comments?

Lori
PS. Yes, Yes, I realize I should NOW chain the child to the chair and it's all my fault for NOT totally grounding him from driving in the first place. I heard him comment to a friend that he wasn't going to let HIS KIDS drive HIS car when he had them. And yes, he is very disappointed..and no, I didn't yell at him, because he knew he was getting this 93 SE when I got the deer settlement. I was still going to buy the 93 240 SE so now he is back stuck with the 93 Sable in the driveway and NO, he will not TOUCH the car when I get it. AND I was planning on yelling at him when he got back that morning because he was NOT supposed to be GONE. Had just decided to drive some friends home from school and he did it while I was asleep.

LOL..who was that that asked to see my pic and his pic to see if I was capable of kicking his "a" or if I should have mine kicked..lol..my pic is on the site listed on my profile..and his too..albeit a couple years ago for him, and NO, I cannot kick his "a". He could flatten me in a split second..and yes, I have landed on him once, and all he did was throw me off.

Maximamike

Maybe you should take your son's license away, and never let him drive away. I've had a few close calls in the Max, but flipping over two in less than a year? Give him a bus/train pass..

Weasel

iTrader: (2)

Sorry to hear that. I was one of the people that said you should give him the Maxima, and you keep the 240. It seems now that he's just really not ready to drive. Granted, everyone had little experience at one point in their life, but he needs to do a lot more driving with you in the car with him, and especially in the rain. Definitely pursue the truck driver issue, though the best it seems you can come out of this is for the police to declare it no-fault, which they've already done. It seems your son is a good kid, he just needs a lot more practice before he's ready to drive on his own. Good luck with your next car.

speednsound007

I can drive my Maxima at speeds arounds windind roads, turns, ect, then I bet almost anyone else can. I don't know it's just my gift from god, LOL. Experience is not the issue, well kinda...Some people just really suck at driving and this is what plagues your son. Send him to some sort of driving class where you actually LEARN what to do in emergency situations so he doesn't keep flipping the car. I have taken my car 80 around turns in a 15mph zone and when the car skids a little you can't yank the wheel which is probably what he is doing... With my years experience driving I know I can drive better then prolly 95% of people out there, regardless of how old you are. I just understand how the car works and to not make it go all over the road, so age isn't everything in this matter. Take your son to the classes before he touches the Taurus (I know somebody who has TONS of wrecks like your son, and he doesn't stop so you don't have much to look forward to if you don't)...good luck.

PJ

N34JZ

iTrader: (1)

Someone that takes 15mph turns at 80 is either full of it, or really stupid or a combo of both. and they definately shouldnt be giving advice that includes "some people just suck at driving." There is a difference between being a good driver and driving as fast as you can and not getting into an accident. Its people like you that cause accidents, and walk away while others are hurt because of the arogant asses thinking they are race car drivers. at 16 I doubt you have "years of driving expierience" on the road (not moving your parents car out of the driveway.)

OWhatAThrill sorry to hear about this again mabey it is time to get that Volvo

Brandon90gxe

hehe remeber me? well... id usually use that expression, **** happens, but this is just a little too much. like i said before, i do alot of stupid **** in my car, and ive pretty much learnerd the limit, and if you cant learn your limit after flipping a car ONCE, let alone twice.. heh i think its time for a bus pass. you got a 0-2 ration goin on, how many more chances you gonna take before he does it again and thats the final blow? 2 close calls like that i wouldnt play my cards anymore. if i flipped my car the first time and my parents had any suspision i was drving recless id be walkling, at least untill im off their insurance policy.

then again ya never know, we got this friend who is a complete ADD hilarious spaz, whos gone through one car racing and crashed to a parked car, we figured that was coming, then he gets a motorcycle and we all thought his days were numberd, he sold it to get a better one without even crashing it! the dumbass was pullin wheelies, but it amazes us how this guy is still living. haha, sad but true..

Bman

Wow, sorry to hear about that. It really sounds like he's driving too fast, or too aggressively, or BOTH! I mean, like Maximamike said, two in less than a year?? (That's also 2 less 3rd Gen Maxes in the world... )

Not only is this costing a lot of money and hassle, but he's risking his life bigtime.

I think you shouldn't let him behind the wheel of such a powerful and capable car until he learns to appreciate how much responsibility it actually is to be guiding a 1.5 ton missle down the road while he's in it, and others are around.

Two words: DIESEL CHEVETTE

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

Oh man, I'm sorry to hear about the latest events.. the worst part is that I was counting the days until it happened. As has already been said, the child is OBVIOUSLY not ready to drive. if he can't keep his speed under control- especially on wet roads and worn tires- then he doesn't need to be hind the wheel period. He's endangered his own life many times, and he always seems to have these "Accidents" with his friends in the car. that tells me a couple of things:
1. He's probably trying to show off. a VE Maxima is slow compared to many cars on the road, but it's still capable of 140+ mph in the right conditions. the big problem is that it handles like a boat on worn suspension. with that combination, it's like driving a full-size van with 500hp. lots of speed, but no control to do anything with it.
2. He probably wasn't paying attention because he's got two friends in the car. he was either goofing with the radio, yelling and screaming at them like 16 yr olds do with each other, or again, trying to show off.. "Watch how fast I can go around this corner!"

The combination of age, and the car itself in the hands of a 16year old boy is a ticket to the morgue. he does NOT need to be driving a car that fast, let alone with his obvious ability to send the thing flying through the air. (If it were my son- or me in the case it were right now and I was driving dad's car- the liscense would be taken away and not be able to even TOUCH a steering wheel unless Dad was in the passenger seat.) No ifs ands or buts.


As for the case with the truck, I'm sorry it happened but that's stuff the happens every day in the real world. You DO need to talk to a lawyer about the situation that happened. he is a minor and you should have been called immediately, especially for the seriousness of the accident.

But with deer, wet roads, truckers that can't stay in their own lanes, etc. etc. etc. it seems that every time your son encounters any one of these situations, he ends up with a car on top of his head. He's going to wind up killing himself or his friends if you don't take some action to keep it from happening again. So far he's been very lucky that no one has been seriously injured yet. But- yet again- if you continue to let him drive, you WILL be attending the funeral of a young person, and they WILL blame you for it.

Take the keys from the boy and don't let him drive ANYTHING faster than a lawnmower for a good year or so. If you don't, the law will probably suspend his liscense the next time he has a wreck. even if it is in the Sable, it will happen in no time if you continue to let this boy drive (look at his track record). Please, take him off the road for EVERYONE'S safety.

SEguy182

im glad nothing bad happen and im sorry for you losing another car, matt that was well said. 16 doesnt mean that u automatically just know how to drive, u have to learn and it takes time, it sounds like he needs a lot more time.

OWhatAThrill

Thank you. Actually I was hoping his excitement over getting the Max would make him seem to "care" a little more..and don't really know if it's a lack of caring..but just thought it would help. Make him appreciate it a little more.

And I'm not sure about the no-fault thing...is it declared that already? The police report only mentions "truck"...which could be a Chevy S10 for all anyone knows. There is a page asking if a truck over a certain number of axles is involved...and it is checked "no". No, it wasn't "involved" as in "hit" but I do feel it contributed. I'm not even saying the wreck isn't totally J's faults...I do feel his lack of driving experience contributed greatly, but I did want the police report to reflex the tractor trailer, maybe I'm splitting hairs. I don't have a clue how these things affect your driving record..I know for insurance purposes..I have the question of how many claims have you made in the last 3 years..so it seems (I KNOW from paying it)..they don't care whose fault or hit n run, any of that for me anyway..the one getting the insurance policy.

J has 10 months until his 18 birthday. Maybe that is how long I should take his license away. Then maybe he will be more conscious and then he can get his own policy.

OWhatAThrill

No disrespect to you..but this is exactly the attitude I've confronted for the last year...sigh...youth...and "gift from God"? probably...and damn lucky I'd say. Be thankful and I hope you knocked on some real wood after sending this post. I do agree about the driving classes tho..very much so. SOmeone else mentioned that after the deer hit, I was planning on that after we got both the cars and after I got thru my surgery and recovery. His driving had been severely limited up until my surgery but that was only a couple weeks after the deer. After that, I had to let him drive to run errands for me but the driving school was in the plan and still is.

OWhatAThrill

Thank you..and yeah..I agree..would LOVE one...but he wouldn't drive it..that much I could promise you. :-)

OWhatAThrill

Of course I remember you. Am blond...ok..won't finish it because I can't say I'm not STUPID because I have let this child continue driving. Bus pass? Sure wish we had that in this city and now have to rethink him starting college in January. He would have driven the 30 minutes to Nashville for this.

He is much like your friend I think and he is ADHD also. While I do not want him hurt, walking away from these wrecks certainly has not helped him learn I do not believe. Had a girlfriend come by yesterday, marched right in house, to his room and said "come here let me murder you, lest then I will know WHEN it will happen and won't be called someday in the middle of the night". He laughed, we didn't and told him as much.

OWhatAThrill

The first was too fast, the deer? well I've hit a deer and there were 6-7 other deer calls that same night before him, and this last...circumstances of the truck, rain and tires, plus inexperience. He says he was in 2nd gear coming down hill and while steep, the curve is not sharp but a little hill would have prevented him from seeing down the road until he crested the hill. Not sure yet, he will go with me to where he crashed as soon as I have a ride when he's off work.

And yes..we just exchanged words an hour ago. He was asking me for some of the insurance money and I told him what he cost me so far this year in deductibles ($500 each), not to mention the insurance RISE nor the inconvenience. and so far I've said ...two words..."your legs". :-) Made him walk to the bank for me last week..mile there..mile back...and he's been hoofing it to work..about 3/4 of a mile when he can't get a ride with a friend.

OWhatAThrill

You are absolutely correct in that the blame would fall to me. I had already made a note to talk to the insurance office about taking him off my policy for a period of "not driving' time, but will need to discuss that with them. They may not allow me to take him off while he still "legally" holds a license, even if I "take it away". If this happens, I will also continue to make him pay his portion of this premium, even if I don't allow him to drive, in addition to making him pay me the $500 deductible. I didn't last time, I will this time.

We just had a 16 year old killed in a wreck here. He almost went to the funeral. Had it not been so soon after my surgery, I would have forced him to go, and I would have gone with him.

Our argument earlier..was not only about everyone's safety..his and and anyone driving in a car near him, but about the financial situation he has..and continues to put me in. I told him it's no longer the case that I "won't" allow it..I "can't".

Weasel

iTrader: (2)

That's an excellent idea. Having his own policy and paying for it himself would force him to think about the decisions he's making on the road.

N34JZ

iTrader: (1)

I thought that was the point

speednsound007

I meant "A years" as in ONE year...and no, I do not BS...and 2 I DO think my car is a race car...

PJ

speednsound007

I haven't rolled any cars...actually, I havent even been in a wreck and I drive a lot. (About 20,000 miles this year on my car alone). But I'm not as arrogant as I may have come off, in fact I want to take emergency situation classes myself and then stunt driving classes. I want to be some sort of professional driver as a hobby if not eventually a career.

PJ

speednsound007

Your insurance company should let you do this. My brother also totalled a couple cars with another wreck or two and my parents removed him from the policy. They had to sign some thing that he would never be allowed to drive one of their cars again...and he still can't.

PJ

Brandon90gxe

well if i was in your case, i wouldnt even be thinkin about being off your policy. id be worried bout his life. id suspend the liscnece till you think he can handle a friggen car again! i realllly wanna do a driving course but they are damn expensive! my mom took us to a bmw drive thing with her car which was pretty cool, did a skid pad and slalom and stuff, and that alreay improved my driving greatly i think.

damn only 17 and i feel like a damn dad.. hahaha

anyways, good luck...

Sith

iTrader: (1)

Exactly the same way i felt when i was doing stunts and scaring my friends and being cool. Till the air pressure on my rear passanger side tire was low and tried to whip around a slight corner going down a hill by my house and lossed control.. Now 91 GXE has about 2100 dollars damage to the driver side due to the concrete wall that i slammed into. I didn't hit it hard at all, but the body just gave way. So keep thinking your the **** and you got a gift from god. Because the cruel reality of it is, that gift from god could be a body bag.

And OWhatAThrill, if you son won't drive the Volvo, just point out the fact that he ruined 2 beatiful cars. So he has no place to be picky. Volvo or keep on walkin.

Bman

I'll say it again: DIESEL CHEVETTE.... automatic!

Sudesh

Your son should not be able to drive. I am sorry to say it and I know it's your son and a very close to heart matter, but none the less, putting him behing the steering wheel is putting someone else's child in a coffin. The passenger in the maxima was inches away from a stick in the face perhaps taking an eye out or worse. If you are unable (due to time restraints) to help your son heighten his driving abilities, he could take various courses to aid him.

Some people aren't just bad drivers. Everyone has the same driving abilities, not everone feels the need to persue it and become speed racer. Some people just want to get from point A to point B. Some people want to get from A to B while racing everyone who the encounter. For someone to say that they're 16 and a better driver than others is a bit of a typical teenagers train of thought about the issue. At 16 you feel you're on top of the world and invincible. Wait until you accidently run a red light and go UNDER a school bus like me when I was 18. Changes your outlook on things completely, especially since I had a passenger in the car, my girlfriend. I not only put my life in danger, but her's as well.

I drive at speeds of 80-110 everyday (well above the posted speed limit). However I do so cautiously. I never speed when it's raining, in fact I slow down. I never speed when there's alot of cars around. My car is always functioning 110%, I have safety and first aid equiptment in the car at all times. When I want to race, I arrange with my friends to go out to the track, I can race as much as I want there and not worry about getting a ticket or killing people, and get a REAL race at the same time.

I'm 20 now. I want your son to be safe and stay alive, but that won't happen if he keeps flipping over, will he survive the next time? Will his passengers? Will the people in the other car he hits?

He's not a bad driver, just an inexperienced one.

I'm glad for you and him that he's alive and well, keep him that way, or no grandkids for you.

OWhatAThrill

Point of post taken, and I will add..a very mature one for a 20 year old. And the reason we had not already pursued the driving classes was not a time restraint..not in like I took your comment, but back surgery for me (fuson of two vertebra with bone graft and screws), week in the hospital, 1 1/2 weeks on morphine after home, and another week or so trying to be upright for more than 30 minutes at a time.

[QUOTE
Some people aren't just bad drivers. Everyone has the same driving abilities, not everone feels the need to persue it and become speed racer. Some people just want to get from point A to point B. Some people want to get from A to B while racing everyone who the encounter. For someone to say that they're 16 and a better driver than others is a bit of a typical teenagers train of thought about the issue. At 16 you feel you're on top of the world and invincible. Wait until you accidently run a red light and go UNDER a school bus like me when I was 18. Changes your outlook on things completely, especially since I had a passenger in the car, my girlfriend. I not only put my life in danger, but her's as well.[/QUOTE]

I have used the same phrase to him for months..a car is just to take you where you want to go and back. Appreciate that fact and respect it. And yes, the attitude some have in the later teens just floors me. Most of my sons friends do not even have their licenses and they are 18. I believe that may be the only thing that will get his attention at this point is taking away his right to drive and I'm lucky I still have that control. To make a note..he will probably go back to his Dads over this issue because he will not stand by that decision quietly and I do not plan to listen to it.


[QUOTE
I'm 20 now. I want your son to be safe and stay alive, but that won't happen if he keeps flipping over, will he survive the next time? Will his passengers? Will the people in the other car he hits?

He's not a bad driver, just an inexperienced one.

I'm glad for you and him that he's alive and well, keep him that way, or no grandkids for you. [/QUOTE]

Thank you. The first wreck with his head bursting the sunroof (making me think he did not have his seatbelt on) and throwing a speaker that is 3 feet in height, out of the trunk 15 feet away from the car scared the daylights out of me and I have tried to convey just how destructive that one alone could have been.

He drove with his permit for a year a considerable amount of time, and with only two instances I can recall, drove well. I think it is the inexperience in adverse conditions and those teenage things like Matt pointed out, that have been his downfall.

He just came in all excited about getting more hours at work and putting in an application somewhere else for more hours. He wants now to buy the Prelude a guy is selling behind us, so is now determined to work. I think I will enlist his Dad to be here when I tell him, that he can work as diligently in paying me back and in saving his money for this drivers course that we will make him take and then saving for whatever car he wants to get when we decide to let him drive again.

Thank you Sudesh, good post, and it is a matter very close to my heart, but that will be the reason for the restrictions, altho he will fail to see that.

OWhatAThrill

Oh..I think I took the first mention of the Volvo wrong..but maybe not... Actually I would love to have one, if I did, I would not want him to drive it least he wrecked it, but then he would need one too, for the safety factors. And no..if a volvo is all he had to drive..he would drive it.

His head is full of camaro's, Chevelle's, Charger's and some kind of Ford kit car. While I would love for him to have the car he wants, I know those cars in partial spell a death sentence with his driving record. I told him when he was talking of the kit car that he could hang that idea up awhile..most insurance companies to not insure those and with his record, they would certainly not and if they did, he couldn't afford it. When does reality set in for these teen boys? Someone please tell me.. I've also pointed out that he will be paying insurance premiums that would make a mighty fine car payment and for what?????? He wants to but all his apples into an old chevelle he can restore. I have told him he needed something dependable, then he could worry about something to work on. The entire 10 years his Dad and I were married, he always had a "play" car to work on and he's good at that, mechanical and body, so like father, like son. And on that thought, I need to ask his Dad how his driving record was when he was a teen.

But you are absolutely right Sith, he has had all the chances in the world, can't be picky and has no one to blame but himself. He blames the truck tho for this last one, and I can't argue that point until I get up to where he wrecked and he tells me exactly where this truck was.

Brandon90gxe

wow my uncle had the exact same thing like a month ago. crazy stuff. hope ya get better soon. that takes a while to heal huh.

OWhatAThrill

NOT FUN I TELL YA....seriously hope he had a better time of it than I did. Even the morphine drip after surgery didn't do much for the pain..saw every hour on the clock the night of surgery...and usually one is knocked out for that first night. Finally went to morhpine shots every 3 hours..and I got one decent hour out of the three..and came home with diluadid, which they don't normally do.

4 years ago I had a disc removed from my back and a hysterectomy on the same day..and you'd think about a 6 inch cut on the front and back would have been worse...ugggggg..that was a walk in the park compared to this one.

And yes...a full year to 18 months to completely heal, but in a corset for 4 months. They took some bone from my hip plus donor bone and I have a implant that is providing electric stim to the bone graft to aid in healing. Was really hoping I"d enjoy this month of December off..but so far...can't say I've had an enjoyable day..lol.

Hope your uncle is doing well!!

Brian_TII

speednsound007-
This is the attitude that causes these type of accidents!! Slow down before you kill yourself or someone else. If you MUST drive like an *** take it to the track, where you will only kill yourself. That's what track days are for. It's one thing to drive fast on the street, but to drive insanly fast is another. All 16 year olds think they are the best drivers on the road, with REAL experience comes real skills.

OWhatAThrill- I think it is painfully obvious that your son simply can't drive... at all. I drove my RX-7 on BALD (as in steel starting to show though) tires in the rain, bald tires aren't an excuse. If it can be done in an RX-7 it certianly can be done in a Maxima.


Take care,

Brian Murray
87 RX-7 Turbo II (w/mods)
89 Maxima GXE (daily)

maximum810

Just about half a year ago, a mustang convertible filled with 15 and 16 year olds....(one 22..owner of mustang)five total in the car were clowning around at 2am. The driver of the mustang was a 16 year old kid who was driving his buddy's (22) car while the guy was being drunk and irresponsible. Being 16 and invincible feeling and all, the kid drives rather fast and tried passing another car and hits a dip, catches air, hits the car he was passing, and hits a tree and a few telephone poles, causing the mustang to split in two, and causing the car he hit to lose control and into a few other objects. Being the time of night, the kinds of cars involved, ages of all occupants, speed of the mustang...of course the "mass public" views it as racing, and nothing else. Not true, but that's not the point. The owner of the car...22....died..no seat belt, another young girl in the car, 15, seriously injured, 2 other passengers in that mustang ran off, and the driver of the car..16 year old dumb****, is left to face criminally neglegent manslaughter. Such a rut you might say. To you smart *** young punks, have some common sense, learn to drive, and learn about the full responsibility and liability one must take when behind the damn wheel so you won't end up like the kid I'm talking about, and so you won't f the lives up of everyone else involved.

OWhatAThrill

Given the scenario you described we adults know how lucky it is that every single one of them aren't dead. Happens all too often.

criminally neglegent manslaughter? A few words I've tried to use over the last year in trying to get my child to understand the responsibilities that come with driving in addition to the responsibilities that I face as the "adult". Just don't think many of these young ones can even comprehend what that means or it's consequences.

ObsidianIce69

iTrader: (11)

speednsound007

I know I am better then 95%...most people on the road can't keep it in a lane, react to any situations, drive in the rain without sliding everywhere ect....I was just drive 75 around winding turns on a wet road-35mph zone. The car was 4 wheel sliding...but that doesn't mean I am not in control, tap the brake and I am still in the lane...I don't freak out like everyone else and start doing 360s. All my friends say it too, they trust me going extremely fast but clench when riding with other people at the speed limit. Anyone who doubts me come take a ride, email me and I'll tell you where I live in Gaithersburg, MD. You can ride with me or see if you can keep up!

PJ

noleafclover

if the car was "4 wheel sliding", then you were NOT in control, sorry. and you don't freak out like everyone else cause you think you are better than 95% of the drivers. i'll give you that at least 50% of the lisenced out there can't drive for ****, but the top 5% is not composed of people that go 75 on a wet 35 zone, sorry. i'm just glad you're like 1000 miles north of me...

OWhatAThrill

It is the simple fact that you do this and especially boast about it that spells the different between maturity and immaturity regardless if you are a good driver or not. And no..you will probably deny that but come back when you're 40 and tell us.

speednsound007

I don't do it to boast about it...I do it because it's FUN and an adrenaline rush. When I say "good" I don't mean law abiding, anybody can drive 35 on friggin 4 lane roads if they want to, I mean good as skillful...come test me.

PJ

Booner8269

iTrader: (1)

Please dont let him ruin another beutiful Maxima!

N34JZ

iTrader: (1)

speednsound007

You don't know me or my driving skills N34JZ...you call BS because someone can drive better then you and you don't understand why...

PJ

N34JZ

iTrader: (1)

called bs because you are full of **** and yourself. I know I can drive better than you because I dont put myself and other at risk by doing stupid things. Part of being a good driver is being safe. BUt obviously you cant understand that so Im going to end this conversation now. If you want to drive like an *** then do it on a closed track so you die and no one innocent does, then we can have one less ******* one the road.