ujm

Probably not new news to many of you, but winter is here, weak batteries will do their thing and it seems like a good time to bring this us.

No start the other morning, probably in the 20's, the battery finally went in my Maxima.

Tested the voltage, 12.7 volts, noticed the date of 05/2007 on the side and just had a feeling it was toast. Duralast brand, standard 2 year battery, 35-DL was the part number on the top.

Removal was simple, no issues.

Trip to Autozone, battery tested bad, time to replace. I noticed there was an optional battery size, a 24F-DL.

Time for comparison -



The 24F-DL is a little longer, ever so slightly narrower, heavier (almost 5 pounds), offers 100 more CCA and 30 additional reserve capacity minutes for less money ($8.00) than the 35-DL.

Dropped right in, perfect fit, no issues.

Something to consider if you are looking at batteries.

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

FYI, most Optima batteries are a 24-size case, iirc.

ShocknAwe

iTrader: (3)

Has anybody on the org switched over to the lithium batteries? Obviously $1000 for a battery is expensive but in a new car, over the course of its running life, it will prob SAVE you money. Just to throw this out there, I know everybody has their fav brands, but I have tried most of the brands out there and I have finally settled on a Bosch battery. They have excellent power, even with me pulling 600W to my amp in the rear, and the Bosch brand as a whole has never failed me. Over on anther thread on the .org it was brought up Bosch spark plugs suck and only NGK's should be used on a maxima. However, I used to use NGK until I bought a case and out of 100 plugs, 20 of them were bad(the double platinum series). Never had a bad Bosch(the double platinum again). Never

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

ive used Napa for a while, had one in the 3rd gen and it was good and i got one for the Supra at work just because i was replacing my radiator on a Friday and my battery tested weak. apparently Napa batteries are hit n miss, a guy had his brand new one freeze one night after throwing it in lol

paid $250 or whatever for a Optima in the truck because everyone says theyre so good, 800CCA. its a good battery

LvR

IMO its just not on ..................... Lithium cells run at 3.6 volt - I guess its possible to string 3 together and make a simple "battery" usable/suitable for the standard 12V car electric system, but IMO its like manufacturing a bomb ............... unless you modify your car's charging system to include charge controllers for each individual cell independently from each other (horribly expensive), the life of the battery will be extremely short. Also - IMO the simpler cells don't like currents of the order of a few 100s of Amps (starting engine) going through them - they become quite effective bombs.

ShocknAwe

iTrader: (3)

huh? im talking about 12volt lithium CAR batteries lol. they come in 16 volts too and that would be fine for your car as well...

LvR

You wanna post a link to a supplier of Lithium car batteries as a direct replacement for Lead-Acid stuff please?

Please dont confuse "fine" in the sense of "possible to physically install" with a reliable electrical accumulator system able to run off the existing 12V alternator.

ShocknAwe

iTrader: (3)

Are you just joking? You dont think they have lithium batteries for cars that are just dropped in? anyways here you go http://www.google.com/products/catal...MAA#ps-sellers I dont know if you read Dsport but they had a huge article on this? testing and rating them? and on my 12volt acid battery right now I get 15V I dont get what your trying to say here. yes you go out, buy a litium battery and put it in the same spot and use the same cables. With a 16 volt all you would need is a step down resistor to run 12 volt components anyways and some 16 volts come with 3 posts to avoid even needing that. A 12volt battery running a ton of components and an audio system? probably gets depleted down to 10 volts if that. With a 16 volt battery you don't need an alternator because its not dipping below even 14 volts. Your alternator issue doesn't even matter. throw it away because you don't need it. Obviously a 12V lithium battery is better suited to daily drivers because they don't need 16v and those batteries are super expensive but I just don't understand what your saying. I do electronics on a daily basis here, don't get me wrong i'm no expert, but this isn't rocket science

tosheto

iTrader: (5)

I just put Duralast Gold size 24. Worth every penny I think. And not too expansive.

ShocknAwe

iTrader: (3)

yea 12 volt lead acid is for me too. Im not a rich man. Could you imagine having a 12volt lithium battery though? that starter is gonna crank probably with twice the force. All your lights brighter. Windows roll up in 2 secs. ugh I wish I had a spare $500

AllMaxxedOut

iTrader: (15)

Optima Yellow top in both 3rd & 4th gen. Not one complaint & starts great hot or cold.

LvR

At the risk of once again getting involved in an ignorance demonstration battle, let me rather bow to your absolute superior knowledge

ShocknAwe

iTrader: (3)

I didn't mean it to sound like I was talking down to you or calling you stupid, I didn't know what you meant at first. Its my bad I thought you were busting my *****. Llithium car battery technology is all new to me as well. Running a 16v battery on a 12v system? It does seem crazy. It is possible now though and it also eliminates the need for an alternator because the 16v never dips below 14v whereas the 12v lead-acid bat. gets as low as 10.5v when its depleted. The top rated lithium battery in Dsport, the Braille Micro-Lite ML30C, cost $2k. It does only weigh 9lbs and has over 1000CCA but still. This particular one is designed to be used with an alternator but if you don't want to do that you can also get a lithium ion battery charger for bench charging. Obviously these batteries are only needed for high performance cars at this early stage in their development but its still really neat stuff to me.

Greeny

iTrader: (43)

eliminate the need for an alternator..?

so you are saying this lithium battery will never need to be charged..?

c'mon man..all batteries will need to be charged...

LvR

Lithium techology in batteries are wonderful ito power-to-volume density figures, but its a real pain to manage ito charge/discharge. As I said before, Lixxxx technology batteries need a per-cell charge management system of constant current type that also disconnects the charge system from the battery when its "full" - that is to ensure longevity and durability/safety.

One can chose to ignore the reality of it all and I guess do whatever the heck you want in your car, but in the end you don't want to be bothered to manually have to charge a battery every day/few hours depending on use.

Once again - 3.6V per cell (LIIon) or 3.2V (LiFePO) is the magic number - you need to manage those cells individually during both charge and discharge cycles. Li(anything) "batteries" will all include electronics that actually disconnect the load given certain safe operating parameters of the cells .................... now guess where you will be when that happens and the battery's protection logic decides its time to look after the battery rather than allowing you to start a frozen motor in the middle of the night on a isolated road somewhere................ or the battery gets irreversibly disconnected while driving down a dark road at speed................

As Greeny said there - alternator is the thing powering your car's electrics - NOT THE BATTERY. If you want to use Lixxxxx batteries I guess you can go the route Porche did where they have both a Lead-Acid and Lixxxx battery in some models - the Li battery powering only the starter hanging off a real complex and expensive dedicated charge management and switching system and the Lead-Acid battery doing its normal thing while hanging of a conventional alternator

Nope - go read the specs again - not only on this particular battery but any given sorta 12V equivalent Li-anything replacement battery - not a single one of them will spec CCA because the technology atm doesn't allow the sensible or safe measurement of such a figure for direct comparison to the Lead-Acid CCA testing methodology - Read what eg the XS Lithium battery manufacturers have to say about their own product and CCA figures ............................. one simply cannot compare Li-anything technology batteries with Lead-acid ito conventional figures and vehicle electrical management systems.

In short - Li-anything in a daily driver vehicle is a no-no relistically

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

I'm no expert either, and I quit building rockets when I got a real job, but I have a hard time understanding how you're going to charge this uber-battery without an alternator and a proper charge controller, and how you're going to be able to fit all those voltage divider resistors under the hood without catching the car on fire.....

voltage dividers are fine for constant-current-draw in the milliamp range on a regulated DC system, but once you start talking about variable source voltage and variable current requirements, you're in a completely different world of voltage regulation and efficiency.

Sorry dude, but your theories are SERIOUSLY flawed.

ShocknAwe

iTrader: (3)

lol yea this is the same issue I had but the whole point of having an alternator with a lead-acid bat. is because it doesnt stay at 12 volts. Especially in the rain when you have the lights on and the windshield wipers going full blast and a sound system too? Its probably depleted down to 10V like I said. The alternator insures it charges back up and has reserve power in a situation of high voltage pull. With a 12V lithium you still require a alternator and it is recommended you have one. However, with a 16V lithium battery with all of the things I said above and with the power of the battery? It never drops below 14V. So no need to charge it. Im not sure if Dsport meant you don't need one at all or its simply feasible to not have one and you take it off if need be. Its all really neat stuff guys just look it up

Greeny

iTrader: (43)

imma get one of these sUpAh batteries and power my house with it...no more electric bill!!

LvR

Google is definitely not everybody's best friend at all eh ...................

ShocknAwe

iTrader: (3)

The CCA test is outdated now anyways. That test, tests the battery over a 30sec period that will end with the battery ending at 7.2v. No modern cars electronics will fire the ignition with less than 9.6v so what does it matter to test below that? Second, the 30sec crank cycle is outdated too, with carbs maybe but not with modern cars. In the Dsport article they did there own independant testing and thats exactly what it tested at, 1,106 to be exact. The PCA is 1384!!! This battery in particular maxed out the testing equipment. They threw 450A for a 20sec period and the battery took it like a champ. There is no car that could possibly need this much cranking power and for 20secs!!! Thats insane power. Most cranking times take what? 5secs? The main gripe I have heard with the lithium batteries is that the reserve power isnt as good as with the lead-acid type. However, this particular battery is rated at 84Ah which is more than enough. This battery is designed to be charged with the alternator and allows constant charging at up to 15 volts. I meant that this battery CAN mostly certainly be used in cars with no alternators(race cars, drag cars, etc). This battery and the new technology is for real. Once the technology gets better and the prices start to drop? everbody will have a lithium battery and certainly the high-end new cars will come stock with them. 1 battery over the life of your car or changing one every 2 or 3 years at a $150 or so? the answer is obvious

LvR

Its no use trying to convince me on the technology - I have been sold long time ago. This discussion has to do with the "drop-in" replacement of a Lead-Acid with the current Li-Ion technology battery on our daily driver vehicles.

As I said before - it sure is mechanically possible and highly desirable ito performance and you can also do whatever you think is the right thing on your own vehicle ...................using such a battery in a racing application where weight saving is critical is obviously the be-all and end-all allowing one to run the race without the added weight of an alternator too ................. but please allow me to be the voice of reason though as a person working with these and other technology cells on a daily basis. As I said many times before here - 3.6V (ideal min working voltage) and 4.2V (critical - fully charged) per cell are the magic numbers for Li-Ion cells irrespective of the battery brand or manufacturer - whether you currently believe me or not is irrelevant - your wallet will confirm my statement that Li-Ion is NOT the answer for long-term operation in the unmodified charging systems found on our vehicles.

ShocknAwe

iTrader: (3)

Essentially you could just do what the electric car owners do. Bench charge it every night and run no charging system at all. Am I wrong? This is a question because you seem to know more than I. Could you not scrap the existing charging system we have, install the lithium bat and just bench charge it every night? Its seems to me you wouldn't even need to charge it every night. The only thing that truly matters is in a few years there will be better car battery technology and probably make the alternator obsolete

LvR

Nope - the "alternator" as in the thing we think of today may become obsolete, but sure as heck it will be replaced with a different technology charging system - be that regenerative braking, H2 generators, nukes, the utility company etc etc etc

Sure ........... as I said whatever floats your boat. Me though - based on experience I don't care what battery manufacturers tell me - I don't want the wench and kid getting stuck in eg a traffic snarl up for an hour where the engine cooling fans will kill that (or any other) battery guaranteed with no alternator present .............. and that excludes the use of lights,wipers etc etc on the vehicle itself ............just plain irresponsible and silly spending that much money on a battery technology you cannot use and depend on in unforeseen emergencies.

ShocknAwe

iTrader: (3)

Dsport thre them through the ringer. The manufacturers claim that the voltage shouldnt drop below 14. Under extreme stress they barely got the 12v's to drop below 11

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

So what happens if you're going on a 12hr trip in rainy weather? wipers, headlights, A/C and fans, radio, and simply keeping the engine running are all required.
Are you going to want to stop halfway and find a place to plug your car in and charge your 8lb uber-battery? What are you doing to do with your pissed off wife and screaming baby for 3 hours while it charges?
This is why alternators were invented....

These batteries are fine for use in sprint race cars and drag cars that need absolute weight savings of a light batter and no charging system. Ever been to a real race track and looked at a real race car?

They bring a charger AND a backup battery to the track with them, and they charge it between every race. If they don't have time, they swap in the backup battery and put the other one on the charger while they're racing.

That's simply not practical for a street car.

LvR

.............. and your point was again?

For somebody that supposedly is working in electronics you allow yourself to be led around blindly rather easily

BenStoked

iTrader: (7)

here's what I found about these batteries.
good watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNsrK6P9QvI

ShocknAwe

iTrader: (3)

"claim" was the key word. Merely copy and pasting the articles info for everyone to judge for themselves

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

So are you going to tell us how to operate a car without an alternator, or am I going to have to "judge for myself" how to do that?

Please enlighten us, wise one.....

ujm

I have a idea -

Replace as many body panels as possible with solar panels, for one.

Next, mount wind power generators -

Problem solved!

ShocknAwe

iTrader: (3)

lol. A car doesn't require an alternator per say....We only need one so as to keep our batteries charged up. If a battery technology existed, which soon it will, where a battery doesnt drop voltage below 14v and can be bench charged once a day(over night) then the alternator wont exist. The car manufacturers wont let a part become obsolete though. they will simply develop a charging system for the new batteries as LVR suggested

BenStoked

iTrader: (7)

wrong. the alternator powers everything electrical in the car. charging the battery is secondary.
I would rather waste the .0005 mpg the alternator requires over a system that gets bench charged.
****, they can't even get affordable battery technology that allows an EV to get more than 100 miles in a day, do you think a battery will allow you to drive cross-country, powering the ignition system, headlights, radio, wipers, brake lights, electric cooling fan, climate control, and cruise control? no. What about the frequent stops that need to be made on said cross-country trip? will it withstand an additional half-dozen engine starts? no.

You have officially cached your pipe dream, the sooner you realize the technology you are dreaming of will never exist, the better this thread will become (when it does, EVs will overtake the commuter market).

ShocknAwe

iTrader: (3)

Did you read the thread at all? Actually with the new Lithium battery I was talking about is designed to be used with an alternator anyways. If you read the entire thread you might have come to this conclusion on your own....The technology does exist. Its just too expensive right now. The batteries in the article I was speaking of took a 500+amp load for more than 30secs. Thats more juice and on par with the reserve power of the lead-acid counterparts and with the ability to be charged by your alternator only sweetens the pot. My point of scraping an alternator was a secondary point meaning in the future it will be obsolete with new technology designed for the new lithium-ion batteries. Im tired of arguing my point to everyone who reads this thread. Pick up the dec issue of Dsport and read the new technology for yourself people. Lithium-ion batteries DO work in cars and DO work with your existing charging system. THIS IS A FACT. The only draw back is they are about 8 times as expensive and can be killed by overcharging and don't work so well in cold temperatures. If you don't believe me then google it and research it for yourself or get the Dec. isssue of Dsport

BenStoked

iTrader: (7)

dsport is for ricer-wanna-bes and people with more money than sense.
because the battery technology has so many drawbacks (and you listed some important ones for a daily driver), it will never ever be practical.
I can buy an SLA battery for literally 1/10th (not 1/8th) the cost, have none of the drawbacks, and literally every single benefit you listed, with none of the drawbacks you listed (except overcharging, no battery can really take that)

I can promise you, I have enough familiarity with electronics to know this isn't a practical technology.

I bet you also believe the manufacturer's hype about e3 spark plugs, and royal purple, huh?
because those are in every episode of dsport, too. they even have "dyno comparisons," PROVING they are superior :

ShocknAwe

iTrader: (3)

You typed "wanna-bes" and you talked about having sense in the same sentence? this thread has reached a new low comparing lithium-ion technology to SLA batteries. If I need something to power a wheelchair or electric shopping cart Ill get an SLA

BenStoked

iTrader: (7)

k

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

I'm tired of trying to feed you common sense. Charging systems in cars-- whether alternator, generator, solar panel, regenerative braking, a bigass turbine on the roof, whatever-- will NEVER be obsolete on a car.
NOBODY wants to drive their car across town and then have to plug it into a charger. NOBODY. They want to be able to walk outside, stick a key in it (hell they don't even want/have to do that anymore), plop their **** in the driver's seat, and drive away. Messing with a plug-in external charging system is 10 steps backwards in technology.

Think about how much electrical crap there is in a car now. 40 years ago, cars came with 35A alternators. 25 years ago, they were up to 80A. 15 years ago, they were at 100A. They're up to around 120A now.
Electrical demand is growing on cars every day. Safety systems like ABS pumps use a LOT of juice when they're doing their work... Then there's the everyday stuff like ignition, engine management, headlights, wipers, air con, infotainment systems, etc.. More gadgets requires more juice.

With that requirement of power means a requirement to charge while you're on the move-- WITHOUT plugging into a wall while you're stopped. People just won't do it, and they shouldn't have to.

Just because a battery can spit out 500A for 30sec (do the math genius, storage capacity of 500A * 30sec = 4.1 Amp-Hrs. A good size lead-acid battery is good for 100AH)... This doesn't mean crap when you're driving down the highway pulling 85amps for 10 hours.

Please stop believing the ricer mags and start using your brain for a change. These new batteries are neat, but they're a novelty that has a very small niche market in the auto world. A complete-loss electrical system in a race car is just about the only place they're useful.

ujm

Holy crap - excuse me.....

I've driven plenty of cars with bad alternators. A good battery will operate a car just fine (for a while), no alternator needed. Ever hear of a total loss system?

And back in the day, you could eliminate the battery on some motorcycles, as long as you had a kick start, and they ran great without one.

So, everyone wins

I was talking to a master mechanic a while back, and he said that we may be seeing higher voltages - adios to 12V systems. That was one of the topics at a meeting he attended for Mazda.

Going to be intersting.

Hey, I used to have a car that had a generator!

LvR

I still have a car with a generator ................ '53 Fiat Topolino

MrGone

iTrader: (30)

1. all batteries are consumables
2. a 10 year old battery will not perform the same as a 1 year old battery
3. $1000 over 10 years at 4%... the break even is not feasible at that price point.
4. I have multiple cars, I'm not spending $5000 on lithium ion batteries when the conventional batteries tend to last 5+ years.
5. I drove 14,000 miles in my cars this year, and another 7000 on my motorcycle. Plugging in my block heater is a challenge (when not at my house) and inconvenience in itself and you want me to charge my car battery every night? The last thing I want to think about is how much juice my battery has. What about road trips?
6. Cars come with alternators.
7. You want to put 16volts through a car? More advanced cars use pulse width modulation to limit voltage to 11.8v.
8. The break-even point for 3 batteries and a water cooled alternator on my cars is still less than a lithium ion battery.
9. you are comparing lithium amp-hour to conventional amp-hour ratings. The conventional amp-hour rating of that battery is 28 amp-hours. The iDrive alone in my E60 would make quick work of that. If you are talking race cars which power ignition and few other electronics for a short period of time fine, but 28 amp-hours isn't enough for daily driven street cars.
10. I've purchased two VE 5spds for less than the cost of that battery

It's a cool idea, battery technology is improving everyday but it is not there yet.