Just got a call from dealer service manager who has been trying to diagnose why my car wud not statr at all. He says:

Someone must have put diesel in my car tank. Which led to:

- Burnt out mass air flow sensor
- Diesel in all fuel lines

In addition, all fuel lines, tank etc have to be cleaned and fuel pump has to be replaced.

Total damage of $1.5K. Does this make sense?

Of course, I am gonna find all my credit card receipts and go sue the gas pump fellow. What other things I must do?

Regards,

 

how can someone put diesel in a gas tank.. the diesel nozzle is made so much bigger then the gas tank hole just to prevent this..

well if its at the dealer.. i think you are pretty much screwed.. unless you want ot pay anotehr $200 in towing charges to bring it else where..

if it wasn't there and all you needed was a fuel tank and pump.. pump is $99 and i am sure you could pick up a tank for way less than $300 from a junk yard.. now cleaning the fuel lines and engine.. that i don't know ...

thats why i always pump my own gas.. kinda sucks when you are in NJ though.. NJ State Law prohibits people pumping their own gas

 

Something sounds fishy to me.....

#1 What is in your gas tank will have no affect on your MAF sensor.
#2 As Doug said, a Diesel fuel nozzel will not fit into your gas filler neck. How could it have gotten in there?

Did you fill up recently? Your car would have reacted immediatly to a fill up of diesel fuel. You would know before you even left the gas station that something was wrong.

Even if that was the case, some diesel fuel in a gas burning engines fuel system will still allow it to run. You'll get a lot of smoke from your exhaust, but it will run if it's only a small amount.

If thats the case, just drain the tank and full it with the correct gas. Then start the car, it could be flooded so depress the gas pedal all the way down to keep the TB open.

Once the fuel pump runs anything thats in the lines will flush out as the system recirculates. The small amount of diesel left in your tank should burn right through without any problems. Even an entire can of Marvel Mystery Oil dumped in your fuel tank (your only supposed to use a few ounces) will not cause any problems, just a smelly exhaust for that tank.

Why would you replace the fuel pump? It will pump diesel fuel or gasoline (and probably water if it had to) if it pumps, leave it alone. One thing I would replace after you went through a tank of regular gas is your fuel filter.

First try to figure out how Diesel could have gotten in there. Cause there's no way the pump nozzel would have gone into your filler, it's to big!

I have a funny feeling your being taken for a ride here....

 

lets be honest here buddy, there is no diesel in your lines. Why dont you help us all out and tell us what symptons you have, when they happend, what you were doing when they happend etc. Cuz guess what, ill say it again, there is no diesel in your lines. If the only thing wrong with your car is the maf sensor, then guess what, thats all that needs to be changed. JUst plese give us some more info to let us know what is rilly wrong here. One more thing, there is no diesel in your fuel lines, someone is playing you for a fool and you better let them know about it. Have they actually FOUND the diesel in the tank or lines, or are they associating a bad maf sensor with accidental diesel input, dumb f@#$'s

 

Sounds like dealer is trying to rip you off.

 

Hi NJMAX, Doug, Sprintmax, Notnew, and others:

Thanks a ton to this board. I don't find this level of education and sharing of information for my Honda Odyssey anywhere - so I am grateful.

I just got off the phone grilling the service manager and mechanic armed with what I learned on this group. Here's the scoop:

The mechanic is NOT sure that the contamination is diesel. He had told the service manager that the car was dieseling and that the fuel SMELT like diesel, which he says he misinterpreted as presence of diesel when he informed me earlier.

So to sue the gas station is outta question

Now he says that the smell and "contaminant" in the fuel may be the Fuel Injector Cleaner which Nissan recommends not be used. I think he is BS'ing because the Injector Cleaner, from NAPA -- auto parts store, is a highly solvable detergent, usable in all kinds of cars.

What he says he knows for sure
==============================
1. Airflow intake sensor is blown => needs to be replaced $500
(he says it blew up cuz the car backfired. Why? No idea. And
no, its not covered cuz the car is 42K miles/4 years)

Hypothetical land
=================
1. There is SOME problem in fuel system. Cud be contamination $400
=> needs to be cleaned out (car starts when hooked up to a
different fuel system, but I think it is the lack of residual
pressure in the pump)
2. Throttle body dirty => needs to be cleaned $70
3. Fuel pump check valve leaking => replace fuel pump $300
4. Fuel injectors are not firing up fully => flush inbectors $100
(start with other fuel system is not smooth, it is "missing")

What I think will work
======================
1. Replace airflow intake sensor.
2. Flush the tank by filling it up with good gas, disconnect the fuel
line from the engine, turn the ignition to ON to get the fuel pump
working - drain 1-2 gallons just to get that initial muck in the
lines out. Rest will burn up later on its own.
3. Replace fuel filter.
4. Clean out throttle body.
5. Replace fuel tank (incl, fuel pump) by picking from junk yard.
Till then, live with slow start caused by lack of residual
pressure by waiting 10-15 seconds after turning ignition to ON
before start.

Judging from the Haynes manual, replacing MAF is not difficult - reality check, folks? but does that ****ty part cost $500? Where can I check part prices?

And by the way, when I pressed him for a detailed written breakdown
estimate, he backed off ("will provide later today"). I told him no
estimate, no work

Thanks a ton again folks. I wudda been barking up wrong tree on my own.

Regards,

 

Exactly. There is just no way unless you poured it in there some other way.

 

For new Nissan parts, try www.courtesyparts.com. Reputable, widely used by folks here, & they offer a 25% discount for maxima.org members.

I generally don't buy used electrical/sensor parts (unless I can get a warranty that they will work), but you can also try some salvage/junkyards for these items, as well.

If you're doing this work on your own, be very careful. Do it in a well-ventilated space, not a closed garage. Especially when dealing with an open gas-tank (fuel pump removed). Disconnect the battery & be sure to touch a good ground b4 handling anything in this area (to discharge static), & b4 touching parts of the car with tools.

We don't want to hear that you got vaporized! Good luck.

PS: Assuming the MAF sensor is toast anyway, you might try to clean it, using Throttle body/Intake aerosol cleaner to see if that helps restore it's performance. Sometimes these things fail because they're contaminated with foreign matter, like oils, etc. It's worth a shot.

 

MORE


He said he can start your car if it's on another fuel system? How in the world would they have done that? Sorry, nice try, if the MAF is blow, the car wouldn't start on ANY FUEL SYSTEM!!!

HELLO, SCAM MUCH?

Nothing adds up here......

Now I seriously don't trust anything that dealer is telling you.

If the MAF is blown, have it replaced. Your car should start and run. If it does, drive it as fast as you can away from that Dealership.

There's nothing wrong with your fuel system, have the MAF replaced so the car starts, get it home. If your throttle body needs cleaning, which I'm sure at 40K it does go to www.motorvate.ca and you'll see how to do this for about 6 bucks at home.

Your car only has 40~K miles on it, there is no way it needs all that work done to make it run correctly. There ripping you off big time.

 

dude, take that car out of there now. From what it sounds like they may be already startin to mess with things to make them appear broken. Pleaes inform us of what symptons happend and when then we can tell you exactly what is wrong becuz we have all had the some problems. and no the car did not backfire and blow the maf, it would backfire only when the throttle plate is closed and would have nothing to do with the maf, plus a backfire exits through the exhaust. My car backfires every shift of my gears becuz of my exhaust and my maf is fine knock on wood. So once again, tell us when this happend, what sypmtoms occurred and what had recently been done to it. you have about 500 mechanics right now waitin for you to tell us and i garuntee in an hour you will know. we just need to know what exactly happaned up to the car being given to those dik heads

 

forget what i said about not towing it.. spend the tow money and get that car away from those clowns...

you can get a MAF's cheap.. throttle body cleaning is a can of TB FI cleaner and a tooth brush..

these guys are out to take you for a ride

 

What the hell dealer is this. I wanna go down there and shoot everyone there. Crazy Biatches!!!! No seriously, tell us so everyone knows to stay away....


Gange

 

The dealership charges roughly 5x as much as a junkyard for their stuff. Add 2-3x the length of installing everything, and you've got an average nissan dealership for you. They're not there to keep their nissan's on the road, they're there to take your money.

My MAF sensor cost me $95 canadian (bout 60US) at a local junkyard.

 

I agree with Sprint!! Get your car out of there!!! Don't wait till they really pour deisel in to your tank to prove themselves right!! Go there with a towtruck and get it out of there! Nothing makes sense!!!

ZuM

 

I work at a body shop and this is strange. I have to agree with everyone there...get that thing out of there!! Tell us what dealership it was so we can all avoid it!!

 

As for the deisel scenario, if the tanks at the station were filled improperly, ie diesel in the 93 octane tank, then it's possible to get deisel in the tank. Had a co-worker with a Dodge diesel that filled up, AT THE DIESEL PUMP, and got 87 octane instead. Some crack head truck driver F**ked up. Anyways, it is possible, but not likely.

David

BTW. Sounds like you're being taken for a ride!

 

Hello all:

Thanks. Thanks. Thanks.

Looks like the consensus is to quickly get the car out of there

Any tips on how to minimize the "labor diagnostic" charges? Svc mngr claims today that he has already incurred $320 worth of labor, which he will adjust towards final amount -- my bull****-o-meter went to red, but ..... I did not react. AND I DID NOT AUTHORIZE HIM TO REPAIR ANYTHING.

In all fairness, when I had the car towed to him he had said that upto a couple of hundred dollars repair he'd do without further authorization. I had kept quiet. So I dont think I need to pay more but $200 is fair game. Are there any guidelines to minimum or maximum diagnostic charges that he can charge?

Now, some of you asked for history of problems:

December 2001: Transmission block replaced after accident. Slow starts noticed after receipt of car from body shop. They tried to diagnose many times but could not. Ignition would crank but with a strange noise and finally catch on after 2-3 tries.

January 2002: Tried dry-gas, mixture sold in NAPA, to burn out moisture from tank, which could have been caused by being parked too long outside. No improvement.

March 2002: Got starter assembly replaced by dealer under warrantee. Starting became perfect again.

September 2002: Slow start but now the cranking was fine.

November 2002: Dealer svc mngr tested and ruled out battery, starter or injector problems. He diagnosed root cause to be leaky check valve. By the way folks, this is the same guy and he did not charge me for that diagnostic (~1 hr), so I do think he is not all that bad. See my post dated November 2002.

December 2002

Read somewhere (on this board?) that cleaning Fuel Injectors might help. Tried bottle of Fuel Injector cleaner from NAPA. No improvement.

Then, one morning, car just did not start I am almost certain that between using Injector Cleaning fluid and this day, I did not fill gas again.

Noticed battery dropping voltage on load down to 8-9 v => battery toasted. Tried jump start and finally replaced with new battery. No luck.

Got car towed on morning of January 2nd to dealer.

That is in a nutshell, the whole saga of my Nissan Maxima GlE 1999.

Thanks. Thanks. Thanks again. I have been saved tons of money by this group in the past. Any tips would be duly appreciated.

Regards,

 

Oh, if there are any DIY'ers here who would be willing to help in person, would mucha appreciate that. I am in Union County, NJ and would bring the car to any place in 50 miles.

 

take your car to a reputable mechanic!!!

A Nissan dealership gave my brother-in-law a quote of $2100 in writing for an oil leak. He faxed it to me, I made 1 call and had a trustworthy mechanic fix it for $130. I bet a good mechanic can fix your car cheaply.

 

oh and he says that he had hooked up this alternate "fuel" system directly to injectors, thus bypassing the MAF. Makes sense?

I am getting the sense from reading all the posts again that the MAF is actually blown but the fuel pump or gas tank **** is all BS.

Anybody know of any "reputable" mechanics in Central NJ - Union county (Plainfields area)?

 

check ur alternator and replace ur maf. If power seems to progressivly die, u could have an alternator problem. Plus all start problems happend after tranny swap, make sure that was all done legit. and once again, get ur car outta there

 

I have had similar problems with mechanics lately - I have a bad vibration, and they tried to say it was the EGR.

After I kicked some knowledge down on them, and told them the only reason I even brought my car in there was because I was busy and didn't have time to troubleshoot it myself, I bailed quickly.

Jesus, it's just an axle - after I figured it out myself I called them and asked them how much a new one would cost

Get this - $650, NOT inlcuding labor.

Bought one myself from raxles.com for $185 shipped, installing next week.

Why is it that I haven't found ONE Nissan Dealer in my area (out of about 6 I've tried) that knows anything about cars????

Their Sales people, their mechanics, parts guys, etc, etc....they all know NOTHING about Nissans! I have often corrected the sales people while waiting around the dealer to get my car back when they try and tell me things like "The 350Z has a brand new engine, seperate from all other Nissans, and a SuperCharger comes with it...."

I went with my Dad to take his Cadillac in because it has a CEL, and they had him in a rental Caddie that was nicer than his in 10 minutes. We took the car, expecting to have it for a few days, and went to lunch - by the time we got out of lunch, they called back and knew exactly what the problem was, and had already repaired it at no cost to him. He wasn't even under warranty, they were just way cool, and it was a simple problem. (loose harness)

Why can't I find a dealer like that!!!!

Dude, RUN away from that place - You probably have a MAF that just needs to be cleaned. Ask them if they did a voltage test on it and what their results were - I bet they never even checked.

IanS

 

go find ralph nader.. he'll fight for you...

I don't know jack schizzit about the engine bay.. but after installing my Injen.. all I have to say is how would connecting the injectors to another fuel system bypass the MAF problem when the MAF is part of the intake system???

 

Lets assume up to this point there is nothing wrong with your car.

Now here's where your problem starts.

Now lets take a look at what has happened since September.

1) Good crank but a hard start. Did this happen only on a cold start or on all starting conditions?

Dealer says check valve - Well thats possible, but the car would still start after the fuel pump started running. If that valve was bad, you'd still be able to start the car.

2)You used injector cleaner with no improvement.

3)Finally you just can't get it started.


What happened here is something failed over a period of time causing your starts to get progressivly harder until finally you can't start it.

I don't think your MAF is bad, when it goes bad, it's a clean cut. You had a progressive failure.

I don't think there is anything wrong with your fuel system, your car would have been running like $hit all the time if the problem was with your fuel system.

If your hard starts were only happening when the car was cold, then the problem is in the cold startup circuit. Check the Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor, it may not be reporting a cold engine condition.

If your problems were happening on cold and warm starts, I'd be looking at the crank sensors, hard or no start conditions are common when the crank sensors start to go bad.

Sometimes they don't throw codes, same for the Engine Coolant Temp Sensor. That sensor may be telling the ECU that your coolant is hot. ECU thinks OK I have a warm engine, no need to dump any extra fuel (choke). That will definately cause a hard cold start.

 

Tks all again.

Hard starts were happening under all conditions - cold and hot. So it appears to be the crank sensor (is this what Haynes manual calls Crankshaft position sensor - REF and POS?). I will follow the Haynes test procedure for the sensors.

Recd the estimate this morning. While the parts are mentioned on their standard RO form, the recommendations etc are all handwritten, which freaks me out further.

Contents of hand-written estimate:

QUOTE
Mass Air F $537 Part
Pump Assy $306 Part
Misc Parts $18 Part

TOTAL PARTS $861

Engine Diagnostic $328 Labor
R & I Pump/Tank Line Flush $205 Labor
Test Replace Mass Air Sensor $164 Labor

TOTAL LABOR $697

GRAND TOTAL $1558

Note: Recommends Air Flow Meter, Fuel Pump Assy, Remove and Clean Fuel Tank.
END QUOTE

I will go see the diagnosis, have them replace the MAF if necessary, start the car and bring it back.

 

MAF sensors don't cause hard starts. I don't think your MAF is the problem.

The fuel pump doesn't cause hard starts either. If indeed that check valve was bad, your car would still start. I think there trying to rip you off with the replacment of the flue pump. Actually anthing fuel related I think is completely off base regarding your problem.
Exactly, have them get the car started, thats it!! It's only ONE thing thats causing your no start condition, not everything listed there. Do not have them start replacing things until they get it started and then tell you it was everything that caused the problem. Thats :BS: I'm begining to think it's a Crank sensor or coolant temp sensor because you mention you have hard starts both warm and cold.

 

here's what happened last saturday. my dad rented a uhaul truck and it had less than a 1/4 tank of diesel left. so he pulls into the gas station and fills it up with regular unleaded. the truck wouldn't start up again. so we called uhaul. uhaul then called road side assistance. road side assistance drained out the unleaded fuel, replace fuel filter and added some diesel and the truck started right up again. we took the truck from new orleans to houston without a problem. cost was $300. but the work didn't look that hard, we jus didn't want to mess with the truck. all they did was unscrew the plug for the gas tank, drained it out into buckets and replaced fuel filter.

 

Your starting system seems fine. You got a new battery and new starter. The fuel system on the maxima is pretty robust. Fuel pump and fuel injector failaures are rare. I think it's the MAF.

 

FYI what i've learned about the MAF (mine hasn't failed) After i installed an intake i forgot to connect the maf which is basically what its like if you have a blow one. Car starts just fine. It just WILL NOT no matter what you do rev above 2.2K rpms and thats with the thing totally disconnected. So i know it has nothing to do with your starting problem. As for everything else....i have no idea but i it aint desiel you'd have known if it was desiel your exhaust would have poured out BLACK smoke (seen it happen to a girl once) I have no idea how she fit that nossel in here civic but she was ****ed when the car died SECONDS after she started it up. (my guess is her tank was empty and she was burning nothing but desiel)

 

Tony is totally right here. It can't be your MAF sensor then. It's definately a crank sensor and possibly a coolent temp sensor.

I bet the crank sensor has failed, causing your current no start condition. It happened on my buddies I30, we had to have it towed. We never got a CEL or any codes from the ECU telling us it was bad.

AND

Your coolant temp sensor or a dirty throttle body has been giving you hard starts.

Thanks whats wrong with this guys car. I think with all the info contributed in this thread we've finally got it figured out.


Call the dealer and have them check both crank sensor signals. Bet they call you back telling you one is bad. That will get your car started. You should pay an hour diagnostic fee and the sensor replacement. 225 bucks I'll prolly get you on the road again. Don't let them rape you for anything more then that.

 

Diesel (or, #2 fuel-oil) is heavier than gasoline & will sink to the bottom of a tank with gasoline in it. It doesn't matter if there's gas in the tank already or not; diesel will be the first thing that enters the fuel pickup at the bottom of the tank.

But, as we all know, he doesn't have diesel in his tank. Big nozzle - no fit.

 

Very outraging post. friggin nissan dealers. God will judge them all on the final judgement day and give them their punishments. They will see the glory of God and $hit in their pants but it will be too late. friggin ba$stard mothafukers. I'm so glad I learned so much about cars, and especially the Nissans. Now when I get my Z, I will be doing all the work myself, like I do now. Can you even imagine how many new Z owners the nissan dealers will rip off in the on coming years?

ok now to the topic, even if you tell them to go ahead and do the $1500 worth of work, I believe they will NOT BE REPLACING any of those components. They will not be replacing them because they know there's nothing wrong with them. But they're still gonna tell you that they've beeen replaced. Blatant lie.

Here is what I would do. Try not to pay more than $200 in diagnostic labor. Heck try not paying anything at all. It might work. Bring the car back and get a new MAF from a jukyard. It should be under 100 bucks. And I heard that Nissan recently lowered the prices on the MAFs too, and that now it doesnt cost much even if you were to get a MAF straight from the dealer.. but I dont know if thats true or not. And I think you should replace the crank sensor too. You need to eliminate all the possibilities one by one, and eventually you will get an answer. good luck.

ok I just re-read some posts and I think the chances of it being a MAF problem is very low. and I dont think its the dirty TB. I havent cleaned my TB in almost 130k miles(its been cleaned now) and it never gave me hard starts. If dirty TB can give you that hard of a starts, then a clean TB should give us 10 WHP !!

btw, this sounds like the time when the dealer tried to charge me $2000 to get a stripped spark plug out.

thats 2000, not 200.

 

I agree with the "eliminating all possibilities" idea, but this is something that should be done in the diagnosis stage, not at the parts-counter with your wallet swingin' in the breeze. Why replace parts that may be perfectly good?

 

The more I read this, the more dealerships pizz me off.

 

I didnt imagine the uproar that this has caused

Just returned from the shop. The car is starting with a new MAF AND a bottle of gas connected directly into the engine. Fuel pump is not sending fuel. Old MAF fails tests. Computer is sending the correct signal to the Fuel pump ("On-Off-On-off"). He says Crank and ETC sensors are working fine (but I did not push him to show me when he confirmed that the ECM is sending signal but the fuel pump is not sending fuel back).

Armed with knowledge gained from this group and wholesale prices for new parts, I talked the service manager and his boss ("service director") into charging invoice price for parts, reducing estimate by $250 and a promise to reuse existing fuel pump if possible, reducing total further.

I know I would have saved some money on labor by doing it myself but didn't wanna risk doing the fuel pump (if he wanted to add garbage to the tank he would have done it already) or by towing it elsewhere but didn't want to be hit by labor and tow charges again at an unknown devil

Also, re claiming putting in new parts but not putting in any, I believe you gotta draw the line somewhere Also, if he does that, he makes a false invoice for which he could be sued - easy to catch such forgery.

HOWEVER, I have learnt my lesson -- I am NOT taking my car to them again after this -- too many lies and too many changes to the story.

 

Tell them you want to have the old parts to take with you and then watch their reaction. If they start a dance, it's time to worry. They're required to return your old parts to you when you ask. You'll have to pay any core charges on some parts, but a MAF and fuel pump shouldn't be any of them.

 

I agree, both of these items can be tested, so if they're bluffing on any of the work, they'll know they're in trouble.

 

Re: asking for old parts, good idea, but, should I ask now or when I go pick up the car?

If I ask now, if he was really hell bent, he could damage the parts.

If I ask at time of pickup, he cud say, I have already dumped them in garbage.

 

They can throw the parts away if you don't ask beforehand.

it is illegal for them to do it if you ask before the work is performed.

So you have to ask now.

 

I'd love to see how the dealer is accomplishing this. Where is the gas pressure comming from? The car can't run on a bottle of fuel unless it's pumped into the fuel rails under pressure. Tell me the dealership has a complete off car fuel system setup? I still think there ripping your for something. Like others have said, a car will start with a blown MAF, it just wount rev past 2500 RPM's. There are other ways to check if your fuel pump is pumping. The dealer knows these procedures. None of which I'm sure call for a bottle of fuel to be present to run the car from. I don't like the information this place is giving you. I think it's all a big lie or something. None of it adds up. Do us all a favor, once you get the car back, never go back there again!!

Like I said earlier, I SMELL A RAT.