AGX struts adjust for rebound ONLY.
05-17-2003, 07:36 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 408
AGX struts adjust for rebound ONLY.
What is being adjusted with the dials is REBOUND (extension). The ***** don't do much (anything) for COMPRESSION.
The front KYB's seem to be quite a bit stiffer in compression than the stockers. This isn't going to change much, regardless of how the shock is 'dialed'.
As the **** is adjusted to make the shocks stiffer, what is really being adjusted is the rebound, or how hard the shock extends, or seperates. THIS is what helps control the more aggressive springs. Without this extra rebound dampning, the springs spring back too quickly, and give the car a 'bouncy' feel.
If the car is feeling bouncy, turn the shocks up to a stiffer setting, and see how they feel.
I've got an AGX shock right in front of me, and just got finished working the piston up and down on various settings.
There is no significant difference is compression as the adjustment **** is turned, but the extension varies quite a bit.
No B.S., just a direct observation. If anyone else has some they've purchased sitting around, try em' out. From the above data, the dampening rate should more than double. This does not happen. I tested both front and rear shocks, and when putting all my weight on each one, it takes the same amount of time to fully compress each one on both the softest and stiffest settings. However, extension is a totally different story!
Most shocks that are 'single adjustable' are like this.
When the weight comes off, and the gas pressure works to extend the shock, it takes FOREVER to spring back all the way on the stiffest setting. As a matter of fact, I would turn the adjuster **** to the softest setting as it was coming up and watch the extension speed pick up big time.
The settings adjust rebound only. Turning them to stiff still reduces body roll... since is keeps the inside wheel from extending as fast.
But, don't take my word for it, try it yourself.
The time required to extend under the gas pressure varied drastically when the adjustment **** was turned, while the time required to compress did not.
In a nutshell, the stiff compression is going to make the car feel stiff. The variable rebound allows the struts to be dialed in for various spring rates. Stiff springs require stiff settings for a controlled ride. Without stiff rebound (extension) settings, stiff springs overpower the strut and 'bounce'.
Good Luck!
The front KYB's seem to be quite a bit stiffer in compression than the stockers. This isn't going to change much, regardless of how the shock is 'dialed'.
As the **** is adjusted to make the shocks stiffer, what is really being adjusted is the rebound, or how hard the shock extends, or seperates. THIS is what helps control the more aggressive springs. Without this extra rebound dampning, the springs spring back too quickly, and give the car a 'bouncy' feel.
If the car is feeling bouncy, turn the shocks up to a stiffer setting, and see how they feel.
I've got an AGX shock right in front of me, and just got finished working the piston up and down on various settings.
There is no significant difference is compression as the adjustment **** is turned, but the extension varies quite a bit.
No B.S., just a direct observation. If anyone else has some they've purchased sitting around, try em' out. From the above data, the dampening rate should more than double. This does not happen. I tested both front and rear shocks, and when putting all my weight on each one, it takes the same amount of time to fully compress each one on both the softest and stiffest settings. However, extension is a totally different story!
Most shocks that are 'single adjustable' are like this.
When the weight comes off, and the gas pressure works to extend the shock, it takes FOREVER to spring back all the way on the stiffest setting. As a matter of fact, I would turn the adjuster **** to the softest setting as it was coming up and watch the extension speed pick up big time.
The settings adjust rebound only. Turning them to stiff still reduces body roll... since is keeps the inside wheel from extending as fast.
But, don't take my word for it, try it yourself.
The time required to extend under the gas pressure varied drastically when the adjustment **** was turned, while the time required to compress did not.
In a nutshell, the stiff compression is going to make the car feel stiff. The variable rebound allows the struts to be dialed in for various spring rates. Stiff springs require stiff settings for a controlled ride. Without stiff rebound (extension) settings, stiff springs overpower the strut and 'bounce'.
Good Luck!
05-17-2003, 10:12 AM
#4
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 408
You may mock the 'data' but there are valid points made.
I guess some would rather egotistically 'snub' those who aren't on here everyday, rather than accept what they have to say.
No, the 'data' wasn't all that quantitative, and wasn't taken through electronic measurement..... but that sort of thing wasn't necessary to make these general observations.
Rebound (extension) varied BIG TIME as the **** was turned, but compression had no significant change.
My $0.02
I guess some would rather egotistically 'snub' those who aren't on here everyday, rather than accept what they have to say.
No, the 'data' wasn't all that quantitative, and wasn't taken through electronic measurement..... but that sort of thing wasn't necessary to make these general observations.
Rebound (extension) varied BIG TIME as the **** was turned, but compression had no significant change.
My $0.02
05-17-2003, 10:27 PM
#6
Actully this is the way springs and shock work.
A spring is there to pull the shock back out and bumps are what pushes it in.
You must have a hard down force to get the shock to pump in and pump out quicker.
So when you move it with your hands, You may think it only does rebound but it doesn't.
All shocks can be pushed in and out and feel the same and even get stiffer or softer.
So before you say stuff, get some facts.
Also if your car is bouncing then you actully have to tune to a lower level not low but medium for perfect balance with your shocks.
If it's too light then the car will bounce and if it's too hard then the car will ride very rough.
TT-You just got owned.
A spring is there to pull the shock back out and bumps are what pushes it in.
You must have a hard down force to get the shock to pump in and pump out quicker.
So when you move it with your hands, You may think it only does rebound but it doesn't.
All shocks can be pushed in and out and feel the same and even get stiffer or softer.
So before you say stuff, get some facts.
Also if your car is bouncing then you actully have to tune to a lower level not low but medium for perfect balance with your shocks.
If it's too light then the car will bounce and if it's too hard then the car will ride very rough.
TT-You just got owned.
05-17-2003, 11:01 PM
#7
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Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,391
Re: AGX struts adjust for rebound ONLY.
Originally posted by n2oMike
What is being adjusted with the dials is REBOUND (extension). The ***** don't do much (anything) for COMPRESSION.
The front KYB's seem to be quite a bit stiffer in compression than the stockers. This isn't going to change much, regardless of how the shock is 'dialed'.
As the **** is adjusted to make the shocks stiffer, what is really being adjusted is the rebound, or how hard the shock extends, or seperates. THIS is what helps control the more aggressive springs. Without this extra rebound dampning, the springs spring back too quickly, and give the car a 'bouncy' feel.
If the car is feeling bouncy, turn the shocks up to a stiffer setting, and see how they feel.
I've got an AGX shock right in front of me, and just got finished working the piston up and down on various settings.
There is no significant difference is compression as the adjustment **** is turned, but the extension varies quite a bit.
No B.S., just a direct observation. If anyone else has some they've purchased sitting around, try em' out. From the above data, the dampening rate should more than double. This does not happen. I tested both front and rear shocks, and when putting all my weight on each one, it takes the same amount of time to fully compress each one on both the softest and stiffest settings. However, extension is a totally different story!
Most shocks that are 'single adjustable' are like this.
When the weight comes off, and the gas pressure works to extend the shock, it takes FOREVER to spring back all the way on the stiffest setting. As a matter of fact, I would turn the adjuster **** to the softest setting as it was coming up and watch the extension speed pick up big time.
The settings adjust rebound only. Turning them to stiff still reduces body roll... since is keeps the inside wheel from extending as fast.
But, don't take my word for it, try it yourself.
The time required to extend under the gas pressure varied drastically when the adjustment **** was turned, while the time required to compress did not.
In a nutshell, the stiff compression is going to make the car feel stiff. The variable rebound allows the struts to be dialed in for various spring rates. Stiff springs require stiff settings for a controlled ride. Without stiff rebound (extension) settings, stiff springs overpower the strut and 'bounce'.
Good Luck!
What is being adjusted with the dials is REBOUND (extension). The ***** don't do much (anything) for COMPRESSION.
The front KYB's seem to be quite a bit stiffer in compression than the stockers. This isn't going to change much, regardless of how the shock is 'dialed'.
As the **** is adjusted to make the shocks stiffer, what is really being adjusted is the rebound, or how hard the shock extends, or seperates. THIS is what helps control the more aggressive springs. Without this extra rebound dampning, the springs spring back too quickly, and give the car a 'bouncy' feel.
If the car is feeling bouncy, turn the shocks up to a stiffer setting, and see how they feel.
I've got an AGX shock right in front of me, and just got finished working the piston up and down on various settings.
There is no significant difference is compression as the adjustment **** is turned, but the extension varies quite a bit.
No B.S., just a direct observation. If anyone else has some they've purchased sitting around, try em' out. From the above data, the dampening rate should more than double. This does not happen. I tested both front and rear shocks, and when putting all my weight on each one, it takes the same amount of time to fully compress each one on both the softest and stiffest settings. However, extension is a totally different story!
Most shocks that are 'single adjustable' are like this.
When the weight comes off, and the gas pressure works to extend the shock, it takes FOREVER to spring back all the way on the stiffest setting. As a matter of fact, I would turn the adjuster **** to the softest setting as it was coming up and watch the extension speed pick up big time.
The settings adjust rebound only. Turning them to stiff still reduces body roll... since is keeps the inside wheel from extending as fast.
But, don't take my word for it, try it yourself.
The time required to extend under the gas pressure varied drastically when the adjustment **** was turned, while the time required to compress did not.
In a nutshell, the stiff compression is going to make the car feel stiff. The variable rebound allows the struts to be dialed in for various spring rates. Stiff springs require stiff settings for a controlled ride. Without stiff rebound (extension) settings, stiff springs overpower the strut and 'bounce'.
Good Luck!
Exactly the way the Koni Adjustable rears are. Compression is fixed, and rebound is controlled by the adjuster. The front Koni strut is a opposing compression/rebound settings, turn right for more compression damping, left for more rebound damping.
You mentioned a front shock, but was it the front one that you tested? I'd be interested in knowing if the rear obeys this pattern too. The information on my site about AGX was origionally from an email from a KYB person, so you can't be 100% sure it was right (he said compression and rebound were adjusted in the same direction with the ****). I'd like to see a spec sheet to confirm it.
Very good find, keep us updated.
05-18-2003, 05:48 AM
#8
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 408
Both front and rear exhibited the same behavior.
If anyone has access to a 'shock dyno' (yes, they do exist) more quantitative data can be obtained. These devices compress and extend the shock with a known force and/or speed, and the resistance and motion of the shock is graphed throughout it's travel. Anyone knowing some higher end racers or suspension tuners might be able to arrange something.
Good Luck!
If anyone has access to a 'shock dyno' (yes, they do exist) more quantitative data can be obtained. These devices compress and extend the shock with a known force and/or speed, and the resistance and motion of the shock is graphed throughout it's travel. Anyone knowing some higher end racers or suspension tuners might be able to arrange something.
Good Luck!
05-18-2003, 06:22 AM
#9
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Both comperssion and rebound are changed when you adjust the AGX's. Go to KYB's web site and email them for more info. They will give you a spec sheet back if you ask for it. The specs show the change in both compression and rebound through the adjustment range. I believe Cattman once posted it on here someplace in comparason to the Koni inserts.
Once you review the "data" you will see how the adjustments effect the damping.
Funny how some hand forceometers are more accurate then others.
It's very easy to feel and see the change in the piston damping as you change the adjustment on KYB's. If you don't think rebound is changed, push the piston down and time how long it takes to fully extend at a setting of 1. Repeat that test with a setting of 4. It's a night and day difference that you can clearly see. Actually your going to have a pretty tough time getting the front AGX piston compressed with a setting of 4.
Their rock hard.
Once you review the "data" you will see how the adjustments effect the damping.
Funny how some hand forceometers are more accurate then others.
It's very easy to feel and see the change in the piston damping as you change the adjustment on KYB's. If you don't think rebound is changed, push the piston down and time how long it takes to fully extend at a setting of 1. Repeat that test with a setting of 4. It's a night and day difference that you can clearly see. Actually your going to have a pretty tough time getting the front AGX piston compressed with a setting of 4.
Their rock hard.
05-18-2003, 07:20 AM
#10
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Join Date: Mar 2001
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Originally posted by njmaxseltd
It's very easy to feel and see the change in the piston damping as you change the adjustment on KYB's. If you don't think rebound is changed, push the piston down and time how long it takes to fully extend at a setting of 1. Repeat that test with a setting of 4. It's a night and day difference that you can clearly see. Actually your going to have a pretty tough time getting the front AGX piston compressed with a setting of 4. Their rock hard.
It's very easy to feel and see the change in the piston damping as you change the adjustment on KYB's. If you don't think rebound is changed, push the piston down and time how long it takes to fully extend at a setting of 1. Repeat that test with a setting of 4. It's a night and day difference that you can clearly see. Actually your going to have a pretty tough time getting the front AGX piston compressed with a setting of 4.
Their rock hard.
These are observations made when putting all my weight on the struts/shocks under different settings to check compression, and using the gas pressure to see how long extension takes on various settings.
The COMPRESSION is awfully stiff regardless of setting. It's one reason they feel STIFF regardless of how they are dialed, but still bounce on the lower settings.
Unbiased shock dyno results would be nice. Often times, salesmen and manufacturers will tell you whatever you want to hear.
Good Luck!
05-18-2003, 11:25 AM
#11
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Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 792
Interesting info n2oMike.
You're the second person who's observed this phenomenom with the AGX. My friend has the problem of wanting MORE compression dampening on a Miata, and he noted that there's not much compression adjustment, if any when you crank of the dial on the AGX. I have the AGX and have been thinking that they don't have quite enough rebound dampening (big bumps, big suspension travel), but didn't feel that I wanted at stiffer ride than what I have now (which is just about right with the MaxSpeed spring combo).
However, any tips on how to get the adjusters on the front struts to turn? No matter how hard I push down on them, they don't want to go in, so I can't turn them. When hitting high speed dips, I feel there isnt' enough rebound dampening and suspension action gets sloppy. Thanks.
-V
You're the second person who's observed this phenomenom with the AGX. My friend has the problem of wanting MORE compression dampening on a Miata, and he noted that there's not much compression adjustment, if any when you crank of the dial on the AGX. I have the AGX and have been thinking that they don't have quite enough rebound dampening (big bumps, big suspension travel), but didn't feel that I wanted at stiffer ride than what I have now (which is just about right with the MaxSpeed spring combo).
However, any tips on how to get the adjusters on the front struts to turn? No matter how hard I push down on them, they don't want to go in, so I can't turn them. When hitting high speed dips, I feel there isnt' enough rebound dampening and suspension action gets sloppy. Thanks.
-V
05-18-2003, 02:45 PM
#12
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You don't push down very hard, or far at all. If you push down too hard, they won't move. Try turning them without depressing them much at all. It should move easily.
If the suspension feels bouncy, crank the dial stiffer. The increased rebound (extension) dampning will keep the spring from springing back too fast, and bouncing the car.
Good Luck!
If the suspension feels bouncy, crank the dial stiffer. The increased rebound (extension) dampning will keep the spring from springing back too fast, and bouncing the car.
Good Luck!
05-18-2003, 04:57 PM
#13
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Originally posted by n2oMike
You don't push down very hard, or far at all. If you push down too hard, they won't move. Try turning them without depressing them much at all. It should move easily.
If the suspension feels bouncy, crank the dial stiffer. The increased rebound (extension) dampning will keep the spring from springing back too fast, and bouncing the car.
Good Luck!
You don't push down very hard, or far at all. If you push down too hard, they won't move. Try turning them without depressing them much at all. It should move easily.
If the suspension feels bouncy, crank the dial stiffer. The increased rebound (extension) dampning will keep the spring from springing back too fast, and bouncing the car.
Good Luck!
Yeah...that's the one thing I hate about the AGX's...even when I set them to 1/2 on H&R's/Motivational Mounts they give you a slight bounce when going over even slight undulations in the road since the shock doesn't want to compress.
Why didn't they design the shock to be just as adjustable for compression as it is for rebound?
05-18-2003, 05:43 PM
#14
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Originally posted by vmok
However, any tips on how to get the adjusters on the front struts to turn? No matter how hard I push down on them, they don't want to go in, so I can't turn them.
-V
However, any tips on how to get the adjusters on the front struts to turn? No matter how hard I push down on them, they don't want to go in, so I can't turn them.
-V
Good Luck!
05-18-2003, 06:14 PM
#15
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Originally posted by sidewinder740
Yeah...that's the one thing I hate about the AGX's...even when I set them to 1/2 on H&R's/Motivational Mounts they give you a slight bounce when going over even slight undulations in the road since the shock doesn't want to compress.
Why didn't they design the shock to be just as adjustable for compression as it is for rebound?
Yeah...that's the one thing I hate about the AGX's...even when I set them to 1/2 on H&R's/Motivational Mounts they give you a slight bounce when going over even slight undulations in the road since the shock doesn't want to compress.
Why didn't they design the shock to be just as adjustable for compression as it is for rebound?
Many full coilover systems have seperate rebound and compression settings. But they cost quite a bit more. Koni also makes certain shocks with both also, but they only offer it for certain cars, probably due to their suspension nature of the adjustment actually being useful.
05-18-2003, 06:59 PM
#16
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Originally posted by drewm
That would be ideal in the situation that someone would actually have a useful reason to adjust damping settings, but I'd say for the street, rebound adjustment is a lot more important than the compression setting. Having too stiff of a compression setting is bad for performance, so they probably decided to fix it at the ideal setting, and let you adjust rebound to control bounce based on the type of springs you have.
Many full coilover systems have seperate rebound and compression settings. But they cost quite a bit more. Koni also makes certain shocks with both also, but they only offer it for certain cars, probably due to their suspension nature of the adjustment actually being useful.
That would be ideal in the situation that someone would actually have a useful reason to adjust damping settings, but I'd say for the street, rebound adjustment is a lot more important than the compression setting. Having too stiff of a compression setting is bad for performance, so they probably decided to fix it at the ideal setting, and let you adjust rebound to control bounce based on the type of springs you have.
Many full coilover systems have seperate rebound and compression settings. But they cost quite a bit more. Koni also makes certain shocks with both also, but they only offer it for certain cars, probably due to their suspension nature of the adjustment actually being useful.
Nice Max Drew!
So you think KYB was trying to cut the costs of the AGX's by not offering adjustment for compression?
05-18-2003, 07:59 PM
#17
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Originally posted by sidewinder740
Nice Max Drew!
So you think KYB was trying to cut the costs of the AGX's by not offering adjustment for compression?
Nice Max Drew!
So you think KYB was trying to cut the costs of the AGX's by not offering adjustment for compression?
05-19-2003, 12:14 AM
#18
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Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 792
Originally posted by n2oMike
The adjuster screws on my front AGX's push in very easily. Are you saying yours won't push in at all? You are using a small screwdriver (like the one that came with the shocks) right? It's just the small center screw that moves in. If it is pushed in too far, it doesn't want to turn... It just needs pushed in a little bit to change settings. Do BOTH front struts exhibit this behavior??? That would be odd.
Good Luck!
The adjuster screws on my front AGX's push in very easily. Are you saying yours won't push in at all? You are using a small screwdriver (like the one that came with the shocks) right? It's just the small center screw that moves in. If it is pushed in too far, it doesn't want to turn... It just needs pushed in a little bit to change settings. Do BOTH front struts exhibit this behavior??? That would be odd.
Good Luck!
The thing that concerns me is that both of them are exhibiting the same behavior, and I don't think that I would have two bad ones. Well, I'm stuck on 2 right now, since I've gotten them, and do think I need slightly more rebound dampening (put them in with some MaxSpeed springs).
Thanks.
-V
05-19-2003, 04:54 AM
#19
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Re: AGX struts adjust for rebound ONLY.
I didn't really belive this the first time you posted it but now I don't know. I have played with the adjustments and 3f/4r seems to give me the best ride so far. When 2 felt harsh I never thought to go higher. I haven't tried 4 in the front yet but maybe I will.
I wonder if the shocks or springs have to 'break in' or something. My H&R/AGX definatly seems to ride better now than when I first had them installed a few months ago. I don't think I am just getting used to them.
I wonder if the shocks or springs have to 'break in' or something. My H&R/AGX definatly seems to ride better now than when I first had them installed a few months ago. I don't think I am just getting used to them.
05-19-2003, 11:14 AM
#20
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Got a response back from KYB Corp.
KYB Corp promptly answered my inquiry as to adjustments on their AGX Product line. They also explained why both compression and rebound needs to be changed and kept relative to each other in order to prevent the cars suspension from rising or pulling the car downward leading to a possible bottoming of the vehicle. I'll just copy and past the important stuff for all to see. Most of us have already see the value changes posted on here before.
I scanned the actual word document they sent me, but cardomain is down and I can't upload it! I'll place the answer to this thread in bold for n2oMike to see.
Perhaps n2oMike should visit the site and request the proper information before posting wrong information about the KYB AGX Product.
Here's the response I got:
KYB TECHNICAL TIP # 2002-06
DATED: November 20,2002
TITLE: AGX Adjustment Definition
QUESTION / PROBLEM:
What are the adjustment settings for AGX products?
ANSWER / RESPONSE:
The AGX products have the following approximate damping force values.
When adjusted, both rebound and compression damping forces change.
Setting#: Relative Value
1 - Same as Factory
2 - Same as our GR2 products (10~15% firmer than Factory)
3 - 50% firmer than #2
4 - 30% firmer than #3
For an eight position adjustable product, the damping force values are approx. the following:
With #2 being Factory at a relative value of 100
#1 = 95 (5% softer than Factory
#2 = 100 (Factory damping force)
#3 = 107.5 (7.5% firmer than Factory)
#4 = 115 (15% firmer than Factory)
#5 = 143.5 (43.5% firmer than Factory)
#6 = 172 (72% firmer than Factory)
#7 = 197.5 (97.5 firmer than Factory)
#8 = 223 (123 % firmer than Factory)
Feel free to visit their web site at www.kyb.com and request a copy of the spec sheet this information was copied from.
I scanned the actual word document they sent me, but cardomain is down and I can't upload it! I'll place the answer to this thread in bold for n2oMike to see.
Perhaps n2oMike should visit the site and request the proper information before posting wrong information about the KYB AGX Product.
Here's the response I got:
KYB TECHNICAL TIP # 2002-06
DATED: November 20,2002
TITLE: AGX Adjustment Definition
QUESTION / PROBLEM:
What are the adjustment settings for AGX products?
ANSWER / RESPONSE:
The AGX products have the following approximate damping force values.
When adjusted, both rebound and compression damping forces change.
Setting#: Relative Value
1 - Same as Factory
2 - Same as our GR2 products (10~15% firmer than Factory)
3 - 50% firmer than #2
4 - 30% firmer than #3
For an eight position adjustable product, the damping force values are approx. the following:
With #2 being Factory at a relative value of 100
#1 = 95 (5% softer than Factory
#2 = 100 (Factory damping force)
#3 = 107.5 (7.5% firmer than Factory)
#4 = 115 (15% firmer than Factory)
#5 = 143.5 (43.5% firmer than Factory)
#6 = 172 (72% firmer than Factory)
#7 = 197.5 (97.5 firmer than Factory)
#8 = 223 (123 % firmer than Factory)
Feel free to visit their web site at www.kyb.com and request a copy of the spec sheet this information was copied from.
05-19-2003, 11:26 AM
#21
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Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,391
Re: Got a response back from KYB Corp.
Originally posted by njmaxseltd
KYB Corp promptly answered my inquiry as to adjustments on their AGX Product line. They also explained why both compression and rebound needs to be changed and kept relative to each other in order to prevent the cars suspension from rising or pulling the car downward leading to a possible bottoming of the vehicle. I'll just copy and past the important stuff for all to see. Most of us have already see the value changes posted on here before.
I scanned the actual word document they sent me, but cardomain is down and I can't upload it! I'll place the answer to this thread in bold for n2oMike to see.
Perhaps n2oMike should visit the site and request the proper information before posting wrong information about the KYB AGX Product.
Here's the response I got:
KYB TECHNICAL TIP # 2002-06
DATED: November 20,2002
TITLE: AGX Adjustment Definition
QUESTION / PROBLEM:
What are the adjustment settings for AGX products?
ANSWER / RESPONSE:
The AGX products have the following approximate damping force values.
When adjusted, both rebound and compression damping forces change.
Setting#: Relative Value
1 - Same as Factory
2 - Same as our GR2 products (10~15% firmer than Factory)
3 - 50% firmer than #2
4 - 30% firmer than #3
For an eight position adjustable product, the damping force values are approx. the following:
With #2 being Factory at a relative value of 100
#1 = 95 (5% softer than Factory
#2 = 100 (Factory damping force)
#3 = 107.5 (7.5% firmer than Factory)
#4 = 115 (15% firmer than Factory)
#5 = 143.5 (43.5% firmer than Factory)
#6 = 172 (72% firmer than Factory)
#7 = 197.5 (97.5 firmer than Factory)
#8 = 223 (123 % firmer than Factory)
Feel free to visit their web site at www.kyb.com and request a copy of the spec sheet this information was copied from.
KYB Corp promptly answered my inquiry as to adjustments on their AGX Product line. They also explained why both compression and rebound needs to be changed and kept relative to each other in order to prevent the cars suspension from rising or pulling the car downward leading to a possible bottoming of the vehicle. I'll just copy and past the important stuff for all to see. Most of us have already see the value changes posted on here before.
I scanned the actual word document they sent me, but cardomain is down and I can't upload it! I'll place the answer to this thread in bold for n2oMike to see.
Perhaps n2oMike should visit the site and request the proper information before posting wrong information about the KYB AGX Product.
Here's the response I got:
KYB TECHNICAL TIP # 2002-06
DATED: November 20,2002
TITLE: AGX Adjustment Definition
QUESTION / PROBLEM:
What are the adjustment settings for AGX products?
ANSWER / RESPONSE:
The AGX products have the following approximate damping force values.
When adjusted, both rebound and compression damping forces change.
Setting#: Relative Value
1 - Same as Factory
2 - Same as our GR2 products (10~15% firmer than Factory)
3 - 50% firmer than #2
4 - 30% firmer than #3
For an eight position adjustable product, the damping force values are approx. the following:
With #2 being Factory at a relative value of 100
#1 = 95 (5% softer than Factory
#2 = 100 (Factory damping force)
#3 = 107.5 (7.5% firmer than Factory)
#4 = 115 (15% firmer than Factory)
#5 = 143.5 (43.5% firmer than Factory)
#6 = 172 (72% firmer than Factory)
#7 = 197.5 (97.5 firmer than Factory)
#8 = 223 (123 % firmer than Factory)
Feel free to visit their web site at www.kyb.com and request a copy of the spec sheet this information was copied from.
And technically in a situation, there are many benifits to adjusting compression different than rebound especially if you want to tune how your car handles bumps and corners (push itself up higher, pull itself down lower) The Koni adjustments are wonderful for doing that.
05-19-2003, 11:57 AM
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 244
Are you referring to the AGX hand shocks?
Put them on your car. Then test them.
You'll find that the compression is highly altered when dialed differently.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't shock compression rely on oil pressure to dampen movement. Unless your hand can exhibit 750+ lbs. of force, there is no experiment.
But thanks anyway.
Put them on your car. Then test them.
You'll find that the compression is highly altered when dialed differently.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't shock compression rely on oil pressure to dampen movement. Unless your hand can exhibit 750+ lbs. of force, there is no experiment.
But thanks anyway.
05-19-2003, 04:09 PM
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,391
Originally posted by 95maxmadman
Are you referring to the AGX hand shocks?
Put them on your car. Then test them.
You'll find that the compression is highly altered when dialed differently.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't shock compression rely on oil pressure to dampen movement. Unless your hand can exhibit 750+ lbs. of force, there is no experiment.
But thanks anyway.
Are you referring to the AGX hand shocks?
Put them on your car. Then test them.
You'll find that the compression is highly altered when dialed differently.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't shock compression rely on oil pressure to dampen movement. Unless your hand can exhibit 750+ lbs. of force, there is no experiment.
But thanks anyway.
http://www.accessconnect.com/how.htm
Adjustment is made by increasing or decreasing the number of holes for the oil to flow through. Also seperate compression and rebound settings can be made by using a few different methods. One is by having valves that only flow oil one direction, so you can seperate the compression valves from the rebound valves. The shocks are generally even more complicated than that to deal with situations that require less initial dampening such as potholes.
The only reason I know all this stuff is because I use to race high performace R/C cars, with true oil filled coilovers, and they are a simplified version of the ones used in full size cars.
05-19-2003, 04:34 PM
#24
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 408
Originally posted by 95maxmadman
Are you referring to the AGX hand shocks?
Unless your hand can exhibit 750+ lbs. of force, there is no experiment.
Are you referring to the AGX hand shocks?
Unless your hand can exhibit 750+ lbs. of force, there is no experiment.
As for KYB's published data... I might believe it as far as rebound (extension) is concerned, but not compression.
05-20-2003, 05:59 AM
#25
I know Tom answered the question at hand but to not agree with the KYB rep is just nuts.
Tom emailed KYB and got the facts and some of you still don't believe it.
Tom is correct and Mike is wrong.
The AGX's control compression on both sides and it all has to do with adjusting the rate of pressure flowing through the valves within the shock itself.
Pushing and pulling the shock with your hand is not exhibiting true data or road force on how it works. They need to be tested with the load of an automobile to get true data.
Let's see how much HP we get by blowing through a full freeflow exhaust setup with our mounths or lets see how much boost we can get out an SC compressor by spinning the fans with our hands. Come on people, there is no way we can get true data doing tests the wrong way.
Tom emailed KYB and got the facts and some of you still don't believe it.
Tom is correct and Mike is wrong.
The AGX's control compression on both sides and it all has to do with adjusting the rate of pressure flowing through the valves within the shock itself.
Pushing and pulling the shock with your hand is not exhibiting true data or road force on how it works. They need to be tested with the load of an automobile to get true data.
Let's see how much HP we get by blowing through a full freeflow exhaust setup with our mounths or lets see how much boost we can get out an SC compressor by spinning the fans with our hands. Come on people, there is no way we can get true data doing tests the wrong way.
05-20-2003, 07:07 AM
#26
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 408
I'll believe their marketing when I see it backed up by INDEPENDENT results from a shock dyno. For those of you not familier with shock dynos, look them up on the web. They are used by many higher end racers and suspension specialists to help in chassis tuning.
Until then, take the info for what it's worth and believe what you want. It's a free country.
Good Luck!
Until then, take the info for what it's worth and believe what you want. It's a free country.
Good Luck!
05-20-2003, 07:13 AM
#27
Originally posted by mzmtg
You pushed the pistons in and out with your hands and called it "the above data"
You pushed the pistons in and out with your hands and called it "the above data"
Seriously, not to knock the conclusions of the poster but :rotfl: "The above data" LOL!!!
05-20-2003, 07:54 AM
#28
Originally posted by n2oMike
I'll believe their marketing when I see it backed up by INDEPENDENT results from a shock dyno. For those of you not familier with shock dynos, look them up on the web. They are used by many higher end racers and suspension specialists to help in chassis tuning.
Until then, take the info for what it's worth and believe what you want. It's a free country.
Good Luck!
I'll believe their marketing when I see it backed up by INDEPENDENT results from a shock dyno. For those of you not familier with shock dynos, look them up on the web. They are used by many higher end racers and suspension specialists to help in chassis tuning.
Until then, take the info for what it's worth and believe what you want. It's a free country.
Good Luck!
You do know that damping force varies with piston speed, right? If you push the piston in (with your hand or whatever) very slowly, there will be almost no resistance. If you try to push very quickly, there will be much more resistance.
Also, please explain what KYB has to gain by lying to everyone about the compression adjustment. Koni doesn't seem to have a problem publishing that their struts only adjust rebound.
05-20-2003, 08:07 AM
#30
Didn't see the info from KYB...maybe this is just me...but I think I will beleive the info from KYB before I beleive a hand-shock-dyno. Sure KYB can "spin" things, but they can't just blatantly lie. If someone did shock-dyno the AGX's and discovered that the compression damping is NOT varied, that would be very bad news for KYB. The point about the mechanics of creating separate rebound and compression damping is also good.
Why are so many people on Maxima.org so ready to believe speculation and hype? I'm as skeptical of manufacturers claims as anyone, but a reputable company like KYB isn't just going to invent the fact that the dials alter the comrpession and rebound damping. It amazes me that people will believe BS and speculation before actual numbers and experiences.
Why are so many people on Maxima.org so ready to believe speculation and hype? I'm as skeptical of manufacturers claims as anyone, but a reputable company like KYB isn't just going to invent the fact that the dials alter the comrpession and rebound damping. It amazes me that people will believe BS and speculation before actual numbers and experiences.
05-20-2003, 09:05 AM
#31
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Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 244
Very cool info.
I guess the point I was making was that compression would highly depend on the speed and pressure of the force applying it. Mzmtg said it better than I did, but that's the main point. 750lbs+ was an estimated example. I love how the guy who's doing shock tests in his bedroom is calling me out on facts and figures. P.S. my exhaust doesn't work right. nevermind that it's sitting in box on my garage floor...
I guess the point I was making was that compression would highly depend on the speed and pressure of the force applying it. Mzmtg said it better than I did, but that's the main point. 750lbs+ was an estimated example. I love how the guy who's doing shock tests in his bedroom is calling me out on facts and figures. P.S. my exhaust doesn't work right. nevermind that it's sitting in box on my garage floor...
05-20-2003, 10:12 AM
#32
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 408
Originally posted by mzmtg
You do know that damping force varies with piston speed, right? If you push the piston in (with your hand or whatever) very slowly, there will be almost no resistance. If you try to push very quickly, there will be much more resistance.
You do know that damping force varies with piston speed, right? If you push the piston in (with your hand or whatever) very slowly, there will be almost no resistance. If you try to push very quickly, there will be much more resistance.
But why does the time it takes the shock to extend under that 'minimal' gas pressure vary drastically as the **** is turned?
The compression time does not vary at all.
Try it, then draw your own conclusions. Yes, shock dyno data would be very nice.
05-20-2003, 01:46 PM
#33
Originally posted by n2oMike
But why does the time it takes the shock to extend under that 'minimal' gas pressure vary drastically as the **** is turned?
But why does the time it takes the shock to extend under that 'minimal' gas pressure vary drastically as the **** is turned?
You are presenting an argument that you lost before posting it. You also can't test mods with your hands and feet and say you have data"..
05-20-2003, 04:48 PM
#34
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Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 408
The piston has passages that oil must flow through as it moves up and down inside its cylinder. Yes, the resistance will vary exponentially with the velocity of the piston, but as those passages are restricted, the time required to displace the fluid from one side of the piston will still vary. This is shown with the drastic differences in the time it takes to extend the shock when the adjuster is turned. These differences are not noticed on compression. There is no noticable difference in the time it takes to compress the unit.
You say the reason the extension does vary so much when dialed is because it does not have 350lbs of force extending it, but then say the compression does not vary for the exact same reason...
I don't think so. I did not post any arguments in my first writing. All I did was post some simple observations. Some of the 'regulars' were the ones who came on and started flaming. I have been nothing but respectful... which is more than can be said for some.
I can peacefully agree to disagree. I'm not going to belive the compression adjusts with the **** without seeing unbiased shock dyno data from an outside source. Anyone else is free to believe what they choose. We are obviously not changing each other's minds, so let's leave it alone.
Peace
Originally posted by deezo
Because you doesn't have a spring with 350 pounds per square inch extending it.
Because you doesn't have a spring with 350 pounds per square inch extending it.
You are presenting an argument that you lost before posting it.
I can peacefully agree to disagree. I'm not going to belive the compression adjusts with the **** without seeing unbiased shock dyno data from an outside source. Anyone else is free to believe what they choose. We are obviously not changing each other's minds, so let's leave it alone.
Peace
05-20-2003, 05:01 PM
#35
Originally posted by n2oMike
I'm not going to belive the compression adjusts with the **** without seeing unbiased shock dyno data from an outside source.
Peace
I'm not going to belive the compression adjusts with the **** without seeing unbiased shock dyno data from an outside source.
Peace
WHY don't you believe the manufacturer?
05-20-2003, 05:29 PM
#36
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 408
Originally posted by mzmtg
I see that you dont believe the info provided by the manufacturer, but...
WHY don't you believe the manufacturer?
I see that you dont believe the info provided by the manufacturer, but...
WHY don't you believe the manufacturer?
Second, springs are a more linear device. If shocks are valved too stiff in compression, they become REALLY hard to compress with the huge velocities encountered when a tire hits large bump. This would keep the suspension from absorbing the bump the way it should. Plus, too much compresson damping puts incredible stress on the shock itself. Large bumps will cause enough pressure inside to blow oil seals and bend shafts. About all the rebound setting has to resist is the spring itself. It CAN be adjusted over a wide range without fear of damage.
Edelbrock has a line of IAS shocks that have an 'inertia valve' that unseats when sudden huge compressional velocities (big bumps) are encountered. This allows the oil to flow freely from one side of the piston to the other... which allows the wheel to move easily when absorbing potholes, yet still be firm on compression when taking turns. They are not made for Maximas yet... but are very popular in their available applications.
Third, most quality shock manufacturers (Koni for example) adjust for rebound ONLY. If you want a shock that will adjust for compression, a double adjustable unit must be purchased. These have two seperate dials... one on top, one on the bottom. These are also VERY expensive. I don't know of many shocks that adjust for both compression AND rebound with the same ****.
peace
05-20-2003, 07:29 PM
#37
Originally posted by n2oMike
First, because of my simple observations...
First, because of my simple observations...
Originally posted by n2oMike
Second, springs are a more linear device. If shocks are valved too stiff in compression, they become REALLY hard to compress with the huge velocities encountered when a tire hits large bump. This would keep the suspension from absorbing the bump the way it should. Plus, too much compresson damping puts incredible stress on the shock itself. Large bumps will cause enough pressure inside to blow oil seals and bend shafts. About all the rebound setting has to resist is the spring itself. It CAN be adjusted over a wide range without fear of damage.
Second, springs are a more linear device. If shocks are valved too stiff in compression, they become REALLY hard to compress with the huge velocities encountered when a tire hits large bump. This would keep the suspension from absorbing the bump the way it should. Plus, too much compresson damping puts incredible stress on the shock itself. Large bumps will cause enough pressure inside to blow oil seals and bend shafts. About all the rebound setting has to resist is the spring itself. It CAN be adjusted over a wide range without fear of damage.
Keep in mind that a vehicle's suspension is not a simple spring-mass-damper system. It's a lot more complex than that.
Originally posted by n2oMike
Edelbrock has a line of IAS shocks that have an 'inertia valve' that unseats when sudden huge compressional velocities (big bumps) are encountered. This allows the oil to flow freely from one side of the piston to the other... which allows the wheel to move easily when absorbing potholes, yet still be firm on compression when taking turns. They are not made for Maximas yet... but are very popular in their available applications.
Edelbrock has a line of IAS shocks that have an 'inertia valve' that unseats when sudden huge compressional velocities (big bumps) are encountered. This allows the oil to flow freely from one side of the piston to the other... which allows the wheel to move easily when absorbing potholes, yet still be firm on compression when taking turns. They are not made for Maximas yet... but are very popular in their available applications.
Originally posted by n2oMike
Third, most quality shock manufacturers (Koni for example) adjust for rebound ONLY. If you want a shock that will adjust for compression, a double adjustable unit must be purchased. These have two seperate dials... one on top, one on the bottom. These are also VERY expensive. I don't know of many shocks that adjust for both compression AND rebound with the same ****.
peace
Third, most quality shock manufacturers (Koni for example) adjust for rebound ONLY. If you want a shock that will adjust for compression, a double adjustable unit must be purchased. These have two seperate dials... one on top, one on the bottom. These are also VERY expensive. I don't know of many shocks that adjust for both compression AND rebound with the same ****.
peace
If the rebound and compression are adjusted seperately (with two *****) that is called double adjustable. If there is only one **** (rebound only, compressions only, or rebound and compression together) that is single adjustable. Two ***** are not required to adjust rebound and compression at the same time.
Please tell me what KYB has to gain by lying about their products to us?
I DONT UNDERSTAND!
05-20-2003, 08:22 PM
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 792
Why don't we just say that 'relatively' speaking, compression dampening changes minimally compared to the amount of change in rebound dampening.
Shock Dyno of Ralliart shocks which are supposingly similar to the AGX. Not a perfect comparison, but you can see that there is 'relatively' little change to compression dampening vs. the amount of change in rebound dampening, especially at lower shock piston velocities.
Apparently, if anybody has an old issue of SCC, Feb 2000, they've put AGX on a shock dyno before.
http://list.miata.net/miata/2000-01/3458.html
A pretty cool article on shocks.
http://www.morissdampers.com/foundersforum3.htm
Shock Dyno of Ralliart shocks which are supposingly similar to the AGX. Not a perfect comparison, but you can see that there is 'relatively' little change to compression dampening vs. the amount of change in rebound dampening, especially at lower shock piston velocities.
Apparently, if anybody has an old issue of SCC, Feb 2000, they've put AGX on a shock dyno before.
http://list.miata.net/miata/2000-01/3458.html
A pretty cool article on shocks.
http://www.morissdampers.com/foundersforum3.htm
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