Moral obligation to environment/Y-pipe
01-24-2001, 11:16 PM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 359
- I just read an editorial in the Feb. edition of Car and Driver that quoted a researcher on some emissions numbers. Basically, poorly maintained cars account for about 40-50% of harmful emmissions in the United States (this comes after a decade of research).
- This has major implications for those performance-seekers who cheat emissions with the smug feeling that "just one car" won't make a difference. You do make a difference. A large one at that. Please pick up the latest C&D to read the same text that I did. I write this mainly because of the proliferation of the Y-pipe on city streets. The Y-pipe effectively eliminates the pre-cat section of the catalytic converter, thereby allowing for harmful emissions to be released during the first few minutes of start-up.
- Fortunately, I seem to recall a thread that stated that Cattman or somebody was working on a new Y-pipe that was basically a free-flowing version WITH the pre-cats. This means performance and a cleaner environment. If anyone has info on this or has any comments, please reply to this thread. I'm interested to see what you all think and what you all know about this latest venture. Thanks.
- This has major implications for those performance-seekers who cheat emissions with the smug feeling that "just one car" won't make a difference. You do make a difference. A large one at that. Please pick up the latest C&D to read the same text that I did. I write this mainly because of the proliferation of the Y-pipe on city streets. The Y-pipe effectively eliminates the pre-cat section of the catalytic converter, thereby allowing for harmful emissions to be released during the first few minutes of start-up.
- Fortunately, I seem to recall a thread that stated that Cattman or somebody was working on a new Y-pipe that was basically a free-flowing version WITH the pre-cats. This means performance and a cleaner environment. If anyone has info on this or has any comments, please reply to this thread. I'm interested to see what you all think and what you all know about this latest venture. Thanks.
01-25-2001, 01:49 AM
#2
Yeah but you have to think about one thing
How long are cars in the warm up stage using their pre-cats? What 15 seconds to a minute (if even that long) before the main catalytic converter is warm enough to take over the job of filtering out contaminents? Cars spend the majority of their time in normal running condition where the Cattman y-pipe has still shown to be a great performer and does its job at protecting the environment. The main cat has warmed up and the pre-cats (which are eliminated in Cattman's Y-pipe) are of no factor in filtering out the contaminents. Even with all the modificaitons I have done to my Maxima I have <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/jgadlage/dyno.html">passed emissions</A> no problem.
01-25-2001, 06:48 AM
#3
shut the hell up a hole ! JK 
no but seriously if the y pipe wasent so harmful it wouldnt be legal, thats it. Its is harmfull and if cattman comes out with something legal and not as harmful I will get it. I dont know about youu guys but I rather have less power then having skin cancer.
no but seriously if the y pipe wasent so harmful it wouldnt be legal, thats it. Its is harmfull and if cattman comes out with something legal and not as harmful I will get it. I dont know about youu guys but I rather have less power then having skin cancer.
01-25-2001, 07:10 AM
#4
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,701
I wouldn't worry too much about a Y pipe with your tree hugging views. Most trucks emit high levels of pollutants into the atmosphere. 15 -30 seconds of emissions is really a drop in the bucket. Did you know that this country's Farm animals as a whole are one of the biggest polluters in the country? Methane gas-and it is one the the leading causes for the alleged ozone deterioration. Guess we should stick pre cats up cows asses too. Also to assume the environmental impact based solely upon whether use of a Y pipe is legal or illegal is plain silly. Lawmakers often have no clue when enacting legislation and are poorly informed on the topics at hand. For instance you can't give or receive a ******* in CT b/c it's illegal. Sorry Doug, no fellatio for you! Now I live in IA and I can tell you that the installation of 10,000 Y pipes in my state would not raise the state's pollutants by any measurable amount(s) compared with what farmers emit, what their cows emit and factories. One more example and I'll be off my soapbox...I used to live in Sioux City Iowa. I moved b/c a local plant -IBP was a horrible polluter and had committed 3,500 EPA violations last year. As a result the county where I lived had the highest levels of pollutants ever tested in the history of the world. Were these people fined or shut down with am injunction...NO. So let me have my stinkin Y pipe....
01-25-2001, 08:13 AM
#5
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 259
Pre-cats only function during cold startups. The main cats don't become effective until they are warmed up to x degrees, I forgot the number. Due to their big size and distance from the engine block, they don't become effective until the engine is at normal operating temperature. The pre-cat on the hand is about half the size and is close to the engine block. It functions almost immediately. If you remove this piece, it will only effect emissions at startup. Most emissions testing is done with the car warmed so this is why there is little if any more emission with the pre-cat removed.
01-25-2001, 08:51 AM
#6
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
I'm a environmental engineer/scientist and I spend most of my time looking for, sampling, and cleaning up fuel leaks and spills for various clients.
Do you guys know what one of the major polluters are in this world? Volcanos. They emit 40 times the ozone depleting compounds us humans do with our industry.
I have a y-pipe, but I fulfilled my obligation to the environment by purchasing a RT cat to go with the Y-pipe. The RT cat is a 3 way cat where as the stocker is only a two way cat, therefore the RT cat gets the job done just as good as having precats on there.
Don't worry about us, we should be more focused on the all the SUVs and trucks in this pathetically "fat" country. It just sickens me watching all these overweight and usless SUVs being navigated by soccer moms and yuppie wanna be "crocidile Dundee" dads. These worthless SUVs are major polluters. Why? Because trucks don't have to meet the same emissions standards as passesnger cars, which is complete BS. The technology is there to make these trucks much cleaner running, but the automakers would rather may a few million dollars to the government for going over their emission limits because it is much cheaper that way. I stand firm when I say that buying a SUV should come with a luxury tax and much higher insurance rates.
Dave
Do you guys know what one of the major polluters are in this world? Volcanos. They emit 40 times the ozone depleting compounds us humans do with our industry.
I have a y-pipe, but I fulfilled my obligation to the environment by purchasing a RT cat to go with the Y-pipe. The RT cat is a 3 way cat where as the stocker is only a two way cat, therefore the RT cat gets the job done just as good as having precats on there.
Don't worry about us, we should be more focused on the all the SUVs and trucks in this pathetically "fat" country. It just sickens me watching all these overweight and usless SUVs being navigated by soccer moms and yuppie wanna be "crocidile Dundee" dads. These worthless SUVs are major polluters. Why? Because trucks don't have to meet the same emissions standards as passesnger cars, which is complete BS. The technology is there to make these trucks much cleaner running, but the automakers would rather may a few million dollars to the government for going over their emission limits because it is much cheaper that way. I stand firm when I say that buying a SUV should come with a luxury tax and much higher insurance rates.
Dave
01-25-2001, 09:18 AM
#8
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Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,601
Two-way versus three-way
Originally posted by Dave B
... I have a y-pipe, but I fulfilled my obligation to the environment by purchasing a RT cat to go with the Y-pipe. The RT cat is a 3 way cat where as the stocker is only a two way cat ...
... I have a y-pipe, but I fulfilled my obligation to the environment by purchasing a RT cat to go with the Y-pipe. The RT cat is a 3 way cat where as the stocker is only a two way cat ...
01-25-2001, 10:18 AM
#9
Re: Two-way versus three-way
Your right. The stock maxima cat is a 3-way while the RT is a two way. Some have complained that they did not pass emissions becuase the rt cat didn't pass the nox portion of the test. Fortunately my area doesn't require nox. But after comparing my test w/ the RT cat vs my older stock cat, the test w/ the RT cat was MUCH cleaner.
And as far as the Y pipe issue and emissions, yes eliminating the pre-cat WILL increase emissions. No doubt about that. But for the most part, most of the car's pollutants are coming from older, poorly maintained cars. ie.. late 70's to mid-80's cars. I read that a very small portion ie..10% of the cars were doing well over 60% of the polluting. That's why the GOVT had that campaign to get rid of old cars. Unfortunately that also included CLASSIC muscle cars and other interesting old cars. Shame.
And as far as the Y pipe issue and emissions, yes eliminating the pre-cat WILL increase emissions. No doubt about that. But for the most part, most of the car's pollutants are coming from older, poorly maintained cars. ie.. late 70's to mid-80's cars. I read that a very small portion ie..10% of the cars were doing well over 60% of the polluting. That's why the GOVT had that campaign to get rid of old cars. Unfortunately that also included CLASSIC muscle cars and other interesting old cars. Shame.
Originally posted by Daniel B. Martin
Are you sure? The '99 Maxima factory service manual identifies the main converter as "Three-way catalyst".
Originally posted by Dave B
... I have a y-pipe, but I fulfilled my obligation to the environment by purchasing a RT cat to go with the Y-pipe. The RT cat is a 3 way cat where as the stocker is only a two way cat ...
... I have a y-pipe, but I fulfilled my obligation to the environment by purchasing a RT cat to go with the Y-pipe. The RT cat is a 3 way cat where as the stocker is only a two way cat ...
01-25-2001, 11:56 AM
#10
Muuu Haaa Haaa, no cats here at all!!! I live near what they call "cancer alley" in Lousiana. So I dont thnk my little car is that big of a deal. The oil refineries are much worse!!! (sure I can justify my self, and I sleep like a baby too!!!)
I'm with Dave B, freakin gas guzzlin SUV's and the like are a bigger problem.
I'm with Dave B, freakin gas guzzlin SUV's and the like are a bigger problem.
01-25-2001, 01:39 PM
#11
Matt, you freaking polluter! j/k Living in Louisiana, if people can handle all the oil refineries and plants around here, I don't think people would have a problem with a car like Matt's. 
I think we first need to get rid of all those cars that are running in the streets with black/white smoke coming out of their tail pipes! Take care of these people first. Then worry about people like us.
Living in Louisiana, if people can handle all the oil refineries and plants around here, I don't think people would have a problem with a car like Matt's. I think we first need to get rid of all those cars that are running in the streets with black/white smoke coming out of their tail pipes! Take care of these people first. Then worry about people like us.
01-25-2001, 02:27 PM
#12
Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 45
A few comments for all of the posters thus far:
Sleeper SE
Poorly maintained cars probably excludes 99% of the
cars on this board. Read up on the emissions and determine
exactly how much more the Y pipe without precats adds
versus a "poorly maintained vehicle". You'll be surprised
what you find out...
jgadlage
I believe all Off road Y pipes will fail the start-up
test, but this is not required in all states (the EPA
does not believe the "start up test" is significant
enough to require it everywhere. This is negotiated at
the state/regional level though).
Kashoggio
Off road only Y pipes are illegal if used on every day
road automobiles.
Several folks also mention SUVs/trucks as majority
polluters due to the lax pollution restrictions on their
vehicles (thanks to the lobby of the Teamsters...). Tests
have shown that these vehicles to produce more emissions
on an individual basis, but as a "group" (ie trucks vs
passenger cars), they are a minority contributor due to
the sheer difference in number.
Dave B
Right on about those volcanos. We should outlaw them!
Also, the growing numbers of SUV owners are adding to
the pollution problem, however, most of the newer engines
are designed to be more "pollution friendly", so these
would also have to be considered a minor contributor
compared to the older "grandfathered" cars that are exempt
from emissions testing.
Jeff92se
Dead on right. Poorly maintained older cars account for
the majority of the pollution problem. Almost all of the
EPA studies agree on this.
Cumalot
That Black/White smoke will probably pass emissions just
fine. The emission test is for other less visible gases
most of the time. A diesel is a great example (black smoke
belcher) that's emmisions of flurocarbons is so low, it
is exempt from the testing.
Anyway, great thread. I haven't wanted to write this much
in a long time...
BB
Sleeper SE
Poorly maintained cars probably excludes 99% of the
cars on this board. Read up on the emissions and determine
exactly how much more the Y pipe without precats adds
versus a "poorly maintained vehicle". You'll be surprised
what you find out...
jgadlage
I believe all Off road Y pipes will fail the start-up
test, but this is not required in all states (the EPA
does not believe the "start up test" is significant
enough to require it everywhere. This is negotiated at
the state/regional level though).
Kashoggio
Off road only Y pipes are illegal if used on every day
road automobiles.
Several folks also mention SUVs/trucks as majority
polluters due to the lax pollution restrictions on their
vehicles (thanks to the lobby of the Teamsters...). Tests
have shown that these vehicles to produce more emissions
on an individual basis, but as a "group" (ie trucks vs
passenger cars), they are a minority contributor due to
the sheer difference in number.
Dave B
Right on about those volcanos. We should outlaw them!
Also, the growing numbers of SUV owners are adding to
the pollution problem, however, most of the newer engines
are designed to be more "pollution friendly", so these
would also have to be considered a minor contributor
compared to the older "grandfathered" cars that are exempt
from emissions testing.
Jeff92se
Dead on right. Poorly maintained older cars account for
the majority of the pollution problem. Almost all of the
EPA studies agree on this.
Cumalot
That Black/White smoke will probably pass emissions just
fine. The emission test is for other less visible gases
most of the time. A diesel is a great example (black smoke
belcher) that's emmisions of flurocarbons is so low, it
is exempt from the testing.
Anyway, great thread. I haven't wanted to write this much
in a long time...
BB
01-25-2001, 02:40 PM
#13
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 359
Thank you
- Thank you guys for all your input. Here are a few follow points:
1. First, as much as we all hate those damn SUV, their emissions will be required to be as low as cars in the upcoming years. That was very big in the news about a month or two ago. I'm surprised you missed that.
2. It is acknowledged by many INFORMED people in the car community that auto's take about 30 minutes to get completely warmed up. Yes, your cat probably warms up slightly faster than that, but it is still not a ridiculously stupid number like 15 seconds. C'mon people, don't be morons. We all know that nothing warms up that quickly.
3. Y-pipe are NOT street-legal, you criminals. Yes, it's funny to cheat emissions testing, but it is by no means legal. That's why there are disclaimers all over Stillen and Cattman. They are for track use only.
4. Farm animals are living, breathing organisms that we use. We need them just a bit more than we need vehicles. As much as a gearhead as I am, even I recognize that we have to eat. Man cannot live by gasoline alone.
- Look, the Y-pipe is a great performance part, but it is not for the street. Any time that you start up a cold engine, you are polluting just as much as a 60's, 70's 80's car (or SUV for that matter) that did not have cats. You, my friend, have become your own worst enemy.
- By no means do I expect you all to repent and follow my "tree-hugging" ways, but please be aware of what you are doing. Popping on your stock pre-cats again will make a difference and it is a lot easier than having to lobby to get dirty cars off the streets. If you have any inclination towards our air, stop being a hypocrite and save the Y-pipe for the track or the drag strip. Thank you.
1. First, as much as we all hate those damn SUV, their emissions will be required to be as low as cars in the upcoming years. That was very big in the news about a month or two ago. I'm surprised you missed that.
2. It is acknowledged by many INFORMED people in the car community that auto's take about 30 minutes to get completely warmed up. Yes, your cat probably warms up slightly faster than that, but it is still not a ridiculously stupid number like 15 seconds. C'mon people, don't be morons. We all know that nothing warms up that quickly.
3. Y-pipe are NOT street-legal, you criminals. Yes, it's funny to cheat emissions testing, but it is by no means legal. That's why there are disclaimers all over Stillen and Cattman. They are for track use only.
4. Farm animals are living, breathing organisms that we use. We need them just a bit more than we need vehicles. As much as a gearhead as I am, even I recognize that we have to eat. Man cannot live by gasoline alone.
- Look, the Y-pipe is a great performance part, but it is not for the street. Any time that you start up a cold engine, you are polluting just as much as a 60's, 70's 80's car (or SUV for that matter) that did not have cats. You, my friend, have become your own worst enemy.
- By no means do I expect you all to repent and follow my "tree-hugging" ways, but please be aware of what you are doing. Popping on your stock pre-cats again will make a difference and it is a lot easier than having to lobby to get dirty cars off the streets. If you have any inclination towards our air, stop being a hypocrite and save the Y-pipe for the track or the drag strip. Thank you.
01-25-2001, 02:54 PM
#14
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 359
Originally posted by brittb
A few comments for all of the posters thus far:
Sleeper SE
Poorly maintained cars probably excludes 99% of the
cars on this board. Read up on the emissions and determine
exactly how much more the Y pipe without precats adds
versus a "poorly maintained vehicle". You'll be surprised
what you find out...
Anyway, great thread. I haven't wanted to write this much
in a long time...
BB
A few comments for all of the posters thus far:
Sleeper SE
Poorly maintained cars probably excludes 99% of the
cars on this board. Read up on the emissions and determine
exactly how much more the Y pipe without precats adds
versus a "poorly maintained vehicle". You'll be surprised
what you find out...
Anyway, great thread. I haven't wanted to write this much
in a long time...
BB
- I don't have access to the emissions info you wrote about (see above). Perhaps you could enlighten us?
01-25-2001, 03:09 PM
#15
Re: Thank you
IMHO. Even the biggest SUV is ALOT cleaner than cars that are pre-mid 80's. With the idustry's stuggle to meed emissions w/o decent electronics, cars ran extremely crappy. If you compare the allowable emission limits of the tyical pre-mid 80's car to any 2000 suv, it won't even be close. Both PASS emissions but both aren't on the SAME scale.
Now for the start up emissions of a new car vs a 60's or 70's car, again it's not even close IMHO. You can't even begin to tell me that a 60's car w/ a carb, vacuum advance, points, dist and a mechanical fuel pump spraying raw fuel into the primaries/secondaries is gonna run even remotely close to a modern car w/ more than 10x times the computor power of the some of NASA's space projects during the 60's. Remember these older cars don't have emission requirements. Why? Cause they are Gross Polluters. One 60's car probably puts out more emissions than 10-20 modern cars.
Now for the start up emissions of a new car vs a 60's or 70's car, again it's not even close IMHO. You can't even begin to tell me that a 60's car w/ a carb, vacuum advance, points, dist and a mechanical fuel pump spraying raw fuel into the primaries/secondaries is gonna run even remotely close to a modern car w/ more than 10x times the computor power of the some of NASA's space projects during the 60's. Remember these older cars don't have emission requirements. Why? Cause they are Gross Polluters. One 60's car probably puts out more emissions than 10-20 modern cars.
Originally posted by SleeperSE
1. First, as much as we all hate those damn SUV, their emissions will be required to be as low as cars in the upcoming years. That was very big in the news about a month or two ago. I'm surprised you missed that.
2. It is acknowledged by many INFORMED people in the car community that auto's take about 30 minutes to get completely warmed up. Yes, your cat probably warms up slightly faster than that, but it is still not a ridiculously stupid number like 15 seconds. C'mon people, don't be morons. We all know that nothing warms up that quickly.
- Look, the Y-pipe is a great performance part, but it is not for the street. Any time that you start up a cold engine, you are polluting just as much as a 60's, 70's 80's car (or SUV for that matter) that did not have cats. You, my friend, have become your own worst enemy.
1. First, as much as we all hate those damn SUV, their emissions will be required to be as low as cars in the upcoming years. That was very big in the news about a month or two ago. I'm surprised you missed that.
2. It is acknowledged by many INFORMED people in the car community that auto's take about 30 minutes to get completely warmed up. Yes, your cat probably warms up slightly faster than that, but it is still not a ridiculously stupid number like 15 seconds. C'mon people, don't be morons. We all know that nothing warms up that quickly.
- Look, the Y-pipe is a great performance part, but it is not for the street. Any time that you start up a cold engine, you are polluting just as much as a 60's, 70's 80's car (or SUV for that matter) that did not have cats. You, my friend, have become your own worst enemy.
01-25-2001, 03:26 PM
#16
brittb do you really think that everyone who has a y pipe uses it only on the track. geez the nerve of some people. and yes i do agree there are some other things that polute worse then a y pipe, but im just saying its not legal to use on the street. thats all. but what are we going to do about it? nothing so lets all be happy and get them y pipes
01-25-2001, 03:40 PM
#17
Are you that worried about the ozone Sleeper?
If you are then why the hell are you driving a car! You are polluting the ozone and making things worse. Why aren't you riding a bike everywhere instead of polluting like the rest of us since it is these cars pollute SOOO bad?
For the most part our cars do a really good job of keeping polllutants down to a minimum. You want to clean up the ozone? Go for the big industrial factories, and other sources of major pollutants. Go after them and make them clean up their act. You know what will happen? Nothing, because they like so many other people are allowed to ignore and break the rules as often as they want. This isn't fair why not get the government to step up and make them clean things up? Please, that will never work. I am sure the trucking industry could clean up their big rigs that really pour out the pollution. Some really old beater cars pollute a lot worse than we do and need to be taken care of before us minimalistic polluters.
Bottom line is you are looking at the smallest symptom of a bigger problem to try to find a cure. Fixing the smallest polluters won't cure things, it still leaves the big boys gushing out pollution. What would that have accomplished? Nothing. You still have the same problem with the major cause of the problem still around and working better than ever to make air quality worse. Well we got that bottom 1% of the problem taken care of. Great, the air quality is just as bad if not worse but we got those smallest segment of polluters taken care of. Job well done! YEAH RIGHT!
[Edited by jgadlage on 01-26-2001 at 01:23 AM]
For the most part our cars do a really good job of keeping polllutants down to a minimum. You want to clean up the ozone? Go for the big industrial factories, and other sources of major pollutants. Go after them and make them clean up their act. You know what will happen? Nothing, because they like so many other people are allowed to ignore and break the rules as often as they want. This isn't fair why not get the government to step up and make them clean things up? Please, that will never work. I am sure the trucking industry could clean up their big rigs that really pour out the pollution. Some really old beater cars pollute a lot worse than we do and need to be taken care of before us minimalistic polluters.
Bottom line is you are looking at the smallest symptom of a bigger problem to try to find a cure. Fixing the smallest polluters won't cure things, it still leaves the big boys gushing out pollution. What would that have accomplished? Nothing. You still have the same problem with the major cause of the problem still around and working better than ever to make air quality worse. Well we got that bottom 1% of the problem taken care of. Great, the air quality is just as bad if not worse but we got those smallest segment of polluters taken care of. Job well done! YEAH RIGHT!
[Edited by jgadlage on 01-26-2001 at 01:23 AM]
01-25-2001, 03:47 PM
#18
Just a thought, If you're worried about the emissions coming out of cars now, just imagine what came out of cars before catalysts. Catalysts convert a whole lot of very bad stuff (that's a technical term, I don't know exactly what) to carbon dioxide and water vapor. Without them, you'd be emitting a lot more carbon monoxide and other nasty gases. Yes, a car with a y-pipe will put out more emissions at startup, but you have to look at things relatively. Some cars now are so clean-running (Volvo S80) that the air coming into them in most places is actually dirtier than the air leaving the tailpipe.
01-25-2001, 06:09 PM
#19
Donating Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 577
O.K.
But its the same air that gets polluted whether you are on a highway or "off road"... So why bother having a distinction?
Either make it legal or illegal for everybody everywhere --
You go to a NASCAR race with no mufflers and no cats and dirty carbureted engines and you leave as if you just smoked 14 packs of cigarettes -- And that doesn't hurt the environment?
But its the same air that gets polluted whether you are on a highway or "off road"... So why bother having a distinction?
Either make it legal or illegal for everybody everywhere --
You go to a NASCAR race with no mufflers and no cats and dirty carbureted engines and you leave as if you just smoked 14 packs of cigarettes -- And that doesn't hurt the environment?
01-25-2001, 06:31 PM
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 420
Didn't want to read though all the posts so if I repeat, sorry. Of course its going to matter if your car is letting junk into the air but look at the bigger cars coming off the lot like the Excursion. I bet that thing lets out more junk than a maxima running open headers with all the engine mods in the world would probly never add upto what that thing puts out.
If you were a real tree hugger you wouldn't even be driving around a Maxima why not go buy an Insite if you want to make a differnce. How about this, keep the Max but buy an Insite to blance it out. Or go light all the suvs on fire <---thats a good oneheh fire has smoke right??
What I got from your post is: I don't want a faster car I want a car that doesn't polute the air. I say to you again why not buy an Insite if you are that surious about savin the motha earth.
My post is stupid no sleep is not good so dont take this to suroius cuz its not.
If you were a real tree hugger you wouldn't even be driving around a Maxima why not go buy an Insite if you want to make a differnce. How about this, keep the Max but buy an Insite to blance it out. Or go light all the suvs on fire <---thats a good one
heh fire has smoke right??What I got from your post is: I don't want a faster car I want a car that doesn't polute the air. I say to you again why not buy an Insite if you are that surious about savin the motha earth.
My post is stupid no sleep is not good so dont take this to suroius cuz its not.
01-25-2001, 10:57 PM
#23
Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 45
Originally posted by Kashoggio
brittb do you really think that everyone who has a y pipe uses it only on the track. geez the nerve of some people. and yes i do agree there are some other things that polute worse then a y pipe, but im just saying its not legal to use on the street. thats all. but what are we going to do about it? nothing so lets all be happy and get them y pipes
brittb do you really think that everyone who has a y pipe uses it only on the track. geez the nerve of some people. and yes i do agree there are some other things that polute worse then a y pipe, but im just saying its not legal to use on the street. thats all. but what are we going to do about it? nothing so lets all be happy and get them y pipes
the law. No excuses made for it, I'm violating the law.
I guess while I'm admitting things, I did also crack the
speed limit once or twice, too...
My reference was to your original post:
"no but seriously if the y pipe wasent so harmful it wouldnt be legal, thats it."
The only Y pipe that is currently legal for the Max is
the stock one. I guess I misinterpreted what you said...
BB
01-25-2001, 11:31 PM
#24
The only reason why some parts aren't legal
is b/c you have to pay money to get your product to be legal. A lot of companies offer parts for cars and don't want to undergo the financial stress of having to pay to get their parts legalized when they know that the parts will not hurt the environment. It takes time and money to get those things done and people want to get their parts out on the market so they can regain the money in R&D that they outlaid to undertake these projects. No sense in spending more money to get a legal part when you haven't made your money on it and are not sure that you will. So you get your products out on the market as a product that is "For off-road use only" and you make your money back on it. It there is a lot of demand and you can make a lot of money, maybe then you go and get a legal version of your product. That is what it all boils down to. Just because it says that it is for "Off road use only" doesn't mean that it can't be driven on the street. It is good for the environemnt, but getting it to be a legal product takes time and money. And when it does become a legal product more than likely the customer will be paying for that in terms of higher prices for a product that does the same exact thing but with a different title. Just thought that I would shed some light on this.
01-26-2001, 08:30 AM
#25
Member
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 45
Originally posted by SleeperSE
- Hey, thanks for the help. I forgot about the volcano thing! ROTFLMAO
- I don't have access to the emissions info you wrote about (see above). Perhaps you could enlighten us?
Originally posted by brittb
A few comments for all of the posters thus far:
Sleeper SE
Poorly maintained cars probably excludes 99% of the
cars on this board. Read up on the emissions and determine
exactly how much more the Y pipe without precats adds
versus a "poorly maintained vehicle". You'll be surprised
what you find out...
Anyway, great thread. I haven't wanted to write this much
in a long time...
BB
A few comments for all of the posters thus far:
Sleeper SE
Poorly maintained cars probably excludes 99% of the
cars on this board. Read up on the emissions and determine
exactly how much more the Y pipe without precats adds
versus a "poorly maintained vehicle". You'll be surprised
what you find out...
Anyway, great thread. I haven't wanted to write this much
in a long time...
BB
- I don't have access to the emissions info you wrote about (see above). Perhaps you could enlighten us?
the EPA conclusions and some of their sponsered work at
NREL. Check out http://www.epa.gov and look through their
topics for Emissions. There is some good stuff on mobile
and transportation vehicles, including several charts
showing emissions of certain classes of vehicles.
Also, check out http://www.ctts.nrel.gov/bent/ for more
"advanced" catalytic converter design for the "cold
starting problem". Also, remember that the EPA rates
pollutants in the particle per mile realm, so short
trips are the worst case...
BB
01-27-2001, 10:03 PM
#27
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 359
Re: It's legal if your state doesn't have emissions testing
Originally posted by Frezny
like, NY.
like, NY.
01-27-2001, 10:30 PM
#29
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 359
My Motives for this Thread
- Look, I am not a Tree-Hugger. Nor am I apathetic like all too many of the people on this thread. I chose to start this debate because the issue at hand was bothering me and because we haven't had anything intelligent to discuss in a few weeks. Think of it as a jump-start for automotive intellectualism.
- About two months before election time last year, my university hosted Michael Moore, political satirist extraordinaire, to come and give a lecture during our "Distinguished Lecture Series." [Ahh, the advantages of a liberal arts school.] Needless to say, Mr. Moore's speech bashed the conservatives, trounced the clones in our election, and most importantly SHOT DOWN THOSE OF US WHO THOUGHT THAT OUR VOTE DIDN'T COUNT!!! He accused us of being lazy and disinterested - so much so that all we could do was wallow in our own apathy and whine - hoping that something clever would emerge as we sat around and did nothing. The truth that I came to realize was that he was right: we can't just sit around and do nothing, expecting others to do our work for us.
- If anything is to be done about emissions, WE (that's you and me) can start by putting our stock Y-pipes back on. Yes, we lose some power, but for the most part, we are making a difference.
- How naive do you think I am concerning industrial pollution? Sure, let's go close down big industries because they pollute more than my little car. MORONS!!! Lobbying them is something we could do, but is it effective? NO. We could no sooner shut down the core components of our economy than convert the entire country to communism. Some things are just not cost effective. We need to start with something REALISTIC.
- Yes, you are correct in stating that track use is no different than street-use in that both pollute. But again, there is a whole section of our economy currently based around racing. Frankly, Gore tried to pass a law requiring cats on race cars - I'm sure that something similar will pass soon. But so what!?! Cars today have more power than they ever did back during the Muscle car era - and they do it cleanly! Also, by limiting your performance Y-pipe to the track, it encourages people to get out on a surface that they can really DRIVE on. It promotes overall safer driving and gets all sorts of aggression out of your system. You will learn more from one day on the Track than a year on the street. And, through it all, we can still have relatively clean fun.
- And just why are some of you so disinterested in our air quality? Don't you breathe? Bad air can breed disease, harbor carcinogens, and promote poor health. It causes acid rain that can destroy pH-reliant ecosystems and crops. And most of all - it is getting worse. Personally, my mother just finished with a battle with cancer. It was unrelated to air, and she is healthy now, but it is not something that you or your family should have to go through needlessly.
- We will not change certain things, simply because the negative impact on our economy outweighs the negative impact on the environment. I am not asking you to stop buying certain products or to sell your Maxima in favor of a greener car. But do something useful, something easy, something RIGHT. Please put on your stock Y-pipes unless you're at a Track.
PS - I'm going to go check out the supplied links to the EPA's site and be a responsible member of this forum. Please join me in thanking brittb by going to the links he so thoughtfully provided. Thank you.
- About two months before election time last year, my university hosted Michael Moore, political satirist extraordinaire, to come and give a lecture during our "Distinguished Lecture Series." [Ahh, the advantages of a liberal arts school.] Needless to say, Mr. Moore's speech bashed the conservatives, trounced the clones in our election, and most importantly SHOT DOWN THOSE OF US WHO THOUGHT THAT OUR VOTE DIDN'T COUNT!!! He accused us of being lazy and disinterested - so much so that all we could do was wallow in our own apathy and whine - hoping that something clever would emerge as we sat around and did nothing. The truth that I came to realize was that he was right: we can't just sit around and do nothing, expecting others to do our work for us.
- If anything is to be done about emissions, WE (that's you and me) can start by putting our stock Y-pipes back on. Yes, we lose some power, but for the most part, we are making a difference.
- How naive do you think I am concerning industrial pollution? Sure, let's go close down big industries because they pollute more than my little car. MORONS!!! Lobbying them is something we could do, but is it effective? NO. We could no sooner shut down the core components of our economy than convert the entire country to communism. Some things are just not cost effective. We need to start with something REALISTIC.
- Yes, you are correct in stating that track use is no different than street-use in that both pollute. But again, there is a whole section of our economy currently based around racing. Frankly, Gore tried to pass a law requiring cats on race cars - I'm sure that something similar will pass soon. But so what!?! Cars today have more power than they ever did back during the Muscle car era - and they do it cleanly! Also, by limiting your performance Y-pipe to the track, it encourages people to get out on a surface that they can really DRIVE on. It promotes overall safer driving and gets all sorts of aggression out of your system. You will learn more from one day on the Track than a year on the street. And, through it all, we can still have relatively clean fun.
- And just why are some of you so disinterested in our air quality? Don't you breathe? Bad air can breed disease, harbor carcinogens, and promote poor health. It causes acid rain that can destroy pH-reliant ecosystems and crops. And most of all - it is getting worse. Personally, my mother just finished with a battle with cancer. It was unrelated to air, and she is healthy now, but it is not something that you or your family should have to go through needlessly.
- We will not change certain things, simply because the negative impact on our economy outweighs the negative impact on the environment. I am not asking you to stop buying certain products or to sell your Maxima in favor of a greener car. But do something useful, something easy, something RIGHT. Please put on your stock Y-pipes unless you're at a Track.
PS - I'm going to go check out the supplied links to the EPA's site and be a responsible member of this forum. Please join me in thanking brittb by going to the links he so thoughtfully provided. Thank you.
01-27-2001, 10:37 PM
#30
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 359
Oh Really?
Originally posted by Stillnmax
bad analogy in that ..he is addressing the legality of it and you are talking about morality..
stealing is legal if you get caught but it id morally wrong
no i am by no means condoning stealing .. but ya know
bad analogy in that ..he is addressing the legality of it and you are talking about morality..
stealing is legal if you get caught but it id morally wrong
no i am by no means condoning stealing .. but ya know
- The Y-pipe is no more legal in New York than it is in an emissions-testing state. You may not get caught in The Empire State, but it still ain't legal.
For all you smart-alecs, the improper spelling and usage of the word, "ain't" was intended by the author and is allowed under the sarcastic circumstances. You may consult Strunk and White's book, The Elements of Style [underlined] to confirm this.)
01-27-2001, 10:55 PM
#31
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 359
New info for non-believers
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/04-ozone.htm
- Check out the graph that displays how about 2% of all cars, the "super-dirty" ones, contribute to about 26% of all hydrocarbon pollution. The 8% of "dirty" cars appear to emit another 19%.
- How's that? About 9% of all cars can account for about 45% of all hydrocarbon pollution. And you mean to tell me that even ONE performance Y-pipe won't make a difference! The numbers don't lie, folks. Your Y-pipe does, and is making a difference in the air that we breathe.
- Thank you, brittb and Car and Driver Magazine.
[Edited by SleeperSE on 01-28-2001 at 01:01 AM]
- Check out the graph that displays how about 2% of all cars, the "super-dirty" ones, contribute to about 26% of all hydrocarbon pollution. The 8% of "dirty" cars appear to emit another 19%.
- How's that? About 9% of all cars can account for about 45% of all hydrocarbon pollution. And you mean to tell me that even ONE performance Y-pipe won't make a difference! The numbers don't lie, folks. Your Y-pipe does, and is making a difference in the air that we breathe.
- Thank you, brittb and Car and Driver Magazine.
[Edited by SleeperSE on 01-28-2001 at 01:01 AM]
01-27-2001, 11:06 PM
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,069
Hey listen jackass, i was just distinguishing between his response and your initial thread.
Prove to me its not legal in NY state. Better yet prove to me its not legal in my county of NY state.
If you want better emission cars then go buy a GM EV1 or a honda. They would seem to meet your criteria of cars that are Green Friendly. Or hell maybe you should by a Ford i hear that they are green friendly. My choice to mod my car is exactly that my choice. If any one of the Mod companies choose to make Green friendly mods then i can choose to buy them if i want to.
Until then i think you should go out into the woods and play hide and go f**k yourself....
thank you that is all
Prove to me its not legal in NY state. Better yet prove to me its not legal in my county of NY state.
If you want better emission cars then go buy a GM EV1 or a honda. They would seem to meet your criteria of cars that are Green Friendly. Or hell maybe you should by a Ford i hear that they are green friendly. My choice to mod my car is exactly that my choice. If any one of the Mod companies choose to make Green friendly mods then i can choose to buy them if i want to.
Until then i think you should go out into the woods and play hide and go f**k yourself....
thank you that is all
01-27-2001, 11:20 PM
#34
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 359
I'm obnoxious?
Originally posted by 2000MaximaSE
Your freaking obnoxious.... I dont have a y pipe but now im gonna go buy one just to spite you. Infact i think ill take off my entire exaust system, run open headers, and pour my used motor oil in the sewer..
Adam
Your freaking obnoxious.... I dont have a y pipe but now im gonna go buy one just to spite you. Infact i think ill take off my entire exaust system, run open headers, and pour my used motor oil in the sewer..
Adam
( - You have to admit, though, that this is one of the few threads that has actually sparked any debate in quite a while. At least you can get that much out of it.)
- Although I often disagree with certain laws, like speed limits, I do agree with this particular emission law. Pre-cats are there for a reason. As soon as someone develops a performance Y-pipe that utilizes pre-cats, I'm buying one.
- If you guys don't like what I'm saying, then prove me wrong. My side of the argument seems to be the only one who can furnish any evidence to support our beliefs. Stop the name-calling and start building your case, Punks!
[Edited by SleeperSE on 01-28-2001 at 01:23 AM]
lol
01-28-2001, 06:32 PM
#39
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Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 359
Nope.
Originally posted by kratz74
Question for SleeperSE...do you own your own house? (I'm not going to rag on you or call you names...I'm just a bit curious.
Question for SleeperSE...do you own your own house? (I'm not going to rag on you or call you names...I'm just a bit curious.
01-28-2001, 06:44 PM
#40
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 359
Why, I'd love some whine! But you've already poured too much.
Originally posted by 2000MaximaSE
Ok i wanna see facts too! Go down and get your car emissions tested and then put on a y pipe and have it tested again and post the results with the differance between the 2 pipes. Untill then shut up.
Adam
Ok i wanna see facts too! Go down and get your car emissions tested and then put on a y pipe and have it tested again and post the results with the differance between the 2 pipes. Untill then shut up.
Adam
- I have just been informed that there is a law in the United States that requires auto manufacturers to have the main cats warm up completely within 3 minutes. Unfortunately, they never do, which is why we have smaller, quicker-to-warm-up pre-cats so that the auto manufacturers can meet emissions requirements. I imagine that the main cat would take at least 10 minutes to get up to a respectable efficiency level. But, I do not know times for sure. I will try to find them out over the course of the week.
- Once again, your side is not doing your part. Stop the name-calling and start building a case. brittb responded very quickly to my prodding when I asked for evidence and I'm sure that you all can too.
- If you have any well-aged red wines, I'd love to have a glass with my daily granola bar. I'll try to squeeze you in for tea time around 4, if you'd like. Perhaps after that you'll join me in the atrium to go hug some friendly trees. ;-)