For the longest time I've always wondered what purpose the cheaper FSTBs really serve. The model of FSTB I'm talking about is the one that can be bought from EBay, Courtesy, etc for around $25-35. The reason I wonder about purpose of the FSTB is because of the way it's built. Obviously these types of FSTB are a one size fits many type of design. The "ears" (sections that bolt to the chassis) are able to move up and down, front to back, and they can be drawn in or pushed out. Granted you can tighten the ears to reduce the movement, but I'd think a 3000lb car torquing on those adjustable points will torque the bar when under load. The bar technically does bridge the strut towers together, but the adjustabilty of the bar appears to negate the purpose of the FSTB. The higher dollar FSTB (Stillen/Cattman) have ears that only go up and down. I'd think the chassis bridging with this setup is probably better because I'm assuming the struts flex front/back under extreme load. I'd think the most useful FSTB would be a completely non-adjustable one.

With all this regular talk about how much of a difference the FSTB makes, I decided to yank mine (Courtesy model) that I have been using for 5 years now just as an experiment. After two days of drivng I can't tell any difference The rest of my suspension setup includes H&Rs, Koni fronts, AGX rears, Energy Suspension endlinks, and Warpspeed Stage I/II SFCs. I guess I'm going to leave the FSTB off because it serves no purpose on my car and just gets in the way.


Dave

 

LOL...someone should really let u borrow a stillen or cattman for a few hours just so u can really give us a proper feedback. I always felt the same way, these cheap one's really havent done much, especially when you have so many other suspension mods.

I remember my 95 GLE, i first got my fstb, ($60 bucks) and when i put it on, i did feel a little improvement in handling, it was hard to say and i kind of forget how it felt since its been years ago but car felt a little straighter when turning, still floated like a boat but i felt an improvement. I got a cheap one on now and it doesnt look like it does anything just gives people the idea that i mod my car because i hate it on there....

 

soon dave's car will be back to stock, and better than ever!

 

Isn't that the truth. I just don't like using performance parts that really serve no purpose. If that FSTB isn't helping me, it's coming off. Same with the midpipe.


Dave

 

when i installed a FSTB on my friends max, i felt i dfference in handling, it handled better. but ithink since u got all the other suspension mods the FSTB didn't do anything anymore

 

I noticed my Stillen bar. But only under extreme circumstances, while cornering hard over a bumpy corner, the front stayed planted quite a bit more than without the bar.

All that bar is able to do is keep your front camber from changing under hard cornering or bumpy corners.

 

The Cattman Ti bar has no adjustments. It's only build to fit maxima only.

 

This may be an obvious answer I'm missing but it's late.. wouldn't the car flex to add negative camber to the loaded (outside) side? If so, wouldn't that be a good thing for ultimate grip?

 

drive a stock maxima vs. a maxima with FSTB, u'll feel the difference. i remembered 1 year ago when i first got my FSTB, i can corner about 5mph harder without sqeeking.

but like kev said, consider you have all those suspension mod for a long period of time, you probably dont' feel it and expect the maxima to handle well without FSTB. cuz it probably only makes a tiny difference to you.

 

thanks for pointing this out
i've responded to people saying the fstb is useless countless times...to only get people disagreeing and thinking the world of them

i find that it's more of a cosmetic mod to dress up the engine bay than anything else.

 

Not to jump in and be "that guy" but I have to...

There is absolutely no question in my mind that the FSTB made a SIGNIFICANT difference in the handling of my car. Especially on fast highway off ramps there is NO question that the car turns in much more crisply and predictably than it used to. The car is just better mannered in high speed corners, especially if there are any bumps or anything. The steering response when you're really pushing the limit is better than it used to be...there is less mush at turn-in.

I wonder if the people who haven't seen a difference are really pushing their cars in the corners. Not a dis...some people are just straight line type of people. I'm talking about 4 tires squealing, 8-9/10 type of cornering...not the type of cornering you do on a daily basis.

I'm not saying the effect is this huge major difference, it's definitely subtle, but there is no question that it's there. I put my (Courtesy) FSTB (and RSTB) on when I had stock suspension. I should try taking it off with my H&R/KYB's and see how it feels...I suspect the difference would be the same as it was though.

The thing is that you want the car to be as stiff as possible when you're doing hard cornering so that it's predictable and the suspension can work as it was designed to. If the STB's are adding any rigidity at all they are unquestionably helping.

So all you guys who don't see a difference, are you doing a lot of 8-9/10's cornering at high speed? I don't find that much of a difference at low speed but medium speed tight corners and high speed sweepers...I definitely feel it.

 

On a stock suspension, there is clearly a difference in how the car tracks over bumpy roads. My car felt sloppy without the bar.

 

I disagree Dave. Especially that you can't feel the difference after removing. Maybe it's because I have a softer suspension (Koni+Eibach) but responsiveness and crispness of turning is definately improved with any FSTB. I have the Courtesy myself and the stiffness is felt. Take any slalom and you'll find you'll need to turn in a bit earlier with no bar installed.

If I had a Cattman available I could easily swap between autox runs and test the better vs cheaper ones. Maybe next year.

 

yeah on my stock suspension, i can see the difference easily!

hell you just have to be driving down a street slowly... swerve quickly and you'll see without the bar you'll lean in... even if it's just a bit. And with the bar. the car will stay alot straighter.

Once you got all the suspension mods though, you don't need the fstb cause everything else is keeping you planted

but for stock applications... it's priceless...

 

Yep, I've tested it by diving into highway clover leafs and on low speed 90 degree turns with my W-rated 235/45 tires howling. I can't tell any difference. Maybe the reason I don't feel much difference is because of the substainal increase in rigidity the stage I/II SFCs give me.

I have to admit though, driving at the limits is something I do 1/2% of the time. I go WOT a good bit when I get the chance, but flinging my car into handling manuvers where I'm at the "limit" is not something I like to do because WAY too many things can go wrong that you can't control. Most of my suspension/chassis work was to (1 being most important):

1) Increase rigidity
2) Improve looks
3) Improve street driving and handling during normal/spirited driving
4) Increase ultimate handling at the limit


Dave

 

Well...I am a firm believer in factory-installed products. If things like FSTB did nothing for cars, then how come the new EVO Lancer, new M3 and others have a FSTB right when they roll off the assembly line???? HUH??? HUH?!!!! HUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?

ANyway, something to think about....

 

I too felt a big difference when I installed my ebay FSTB.....when i first installed it and took it for a test drive i noticed i turned the corners a lot more quicker and there seemed to be less body roll. Before I installed my FSTB i have already had Maxspeed springs and KYB AGX struts. I could take turns pretty well but when i installed FSTB i could take the turns a lot more quicker than just the springs and the KYBs alone.

 

Sounds like this should be a poll (or has that been done?). My $0.02 -- the Courtesy FSTB is the only mod I currently have on my Max and it makes a huge difference in any swerving manuver or quick hard turn - the car still rolls around, but it responds much quicker.

 

Dave,

That MEVI and JWT ECU you have don't do a thing, no matter what other people may say. I'll take them off your hands for you (I need them only for cosmetics)

I think some of the problem with the FSTB for you is that your suspension is modded. On my stock '97 SE struts/springs, my FSTB (Courtesy's) definitely makes a difference. I had it off once for polishing, and my wife took the car to church. When she got back (not knowing the FSTB had been removed), she remarked that the car just wasn't handling right, feeling kind of mushy in corners. If she notices...

I can only imagine the stiffening your SFC's are doing. It is entirely possible that with them, you can't feel the difference the FSTB makes. It would be interesting if we could get suspension mod tests carried out on a skidpad. I guess for now we can only go off what our butts tell us.

I have been thinking of getting the SFC (stage 1 and possibly 2). Would you recommend them on a stock '97 SE's suspension (with FSTB, RSTB, and RSB) for a family driver? Do they give just a "rigid" feeling, or really increase road harshness, too (we have really crappy roads in Louisiana)?

Dave

 

I'd definately recommend them. They make the car ride better and it feels more substanial. When the chassis' torsion rigidity is increased, the ride actually gets better, not worse. A stiffer chassis let's the suspension do the work.


Dave

 

well, maybe if you went back and read Dave's original post it would anwser your question. And if you don't agree, then you would have something to post about.

 

I had never even ehard of the SFC's before this thread, but I just searched and found your post about them. WOW do these sound like an upgrade that's right up my alley!

I would be willing to bet that those are the reason you don't feel the difference. Seriously, more than any other mod I am positive I feel the difference with this. They're definitely not a magic bullet, but you can just tell that the front end isn't as mushy in tough corners and it does seem like you can carry a little more speed into the entrance of the corner...the car is just more solid and predictable. I've had other people with other cars tell me how useless strut bars are but I really believe that the Max has some flex going on in that area and that the bars help stiffen it up. I bet the SFC's eliminate the same flex in a different way.


Yea, it's true that cornering at the limit on the street is not a particularly great idea...I really need to get into going to a track. The thing is that the twistes are what really gets my adrenaline going...there's NOTHING in the world that gets my adrenaline going like perfect downshifts and getting to the point where you can use the throttle to keep the car balanced in the turn. That's my primary goal in modding my car: to get it to handle better to enable me to really hit the corners perfectly. Straight line is fun, but I really only get the adrenaline going if I'm racing someone, which just isn't a really great idea...so I don't do it much. I'd rather rely on myself than myself and someone else to keep from crashing...besides you don't downshift in drag racing!

 

The new M3 doesn't come with a FSTB and I don't believe the E36 M3 came with one either. The EVO does have a FSTB and it's the kind I'd think would work the best because it's one piece and non-adjustable.
High performance production cars that do not come with a FSTB:

New M3 and all other BMWs
Subaru WRX and WRX STi
All Mercedes including AMG
Mustang Cobra and Mach I
All F-Bodys
300ZX and 300ZX TT
Toyota Supra TT (no FSTB from the stock pictures I've seen)
Corvette (pretty much impossible to have FSTB with the way the car is designed)
Viper (pretty much impossible to have FSTB with the way the car is deisgned)

Granted most of these cars have a pretty stiff chassis, it appears that these makes determined that a FSTB wasn't necessary. Aftermarket wise, I think FSTB are available for all these cars except the Viper and Vette.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think FSTBs are worthless, I just question the design of the cheaper FSTBs and whether or not paying $200 for a Stillen/Cattman FSTB is really worth it seeing that the gains don't appear to be terribly substainial. I wish someone would just make a plain-jane non-adjustable FSTB similar to the EVO's or Integra ITR's.


Dave

 

If it's adjusted correctly then even the cheaper strut bars are just as good.

If you're saying the 3000lb load is loosening it then think of all the nuts and bolts the rest of the 3000lb car is riding on. Torqued to spec and you're ok.
*shrug*

I noticed a difference as well. After driving another friend's Max, sans fstb, I noticed a definite difference.

All in all...I strongly believe it is our 'perception' that the fstb is/isn't helping us out.