Brake system question... regarding calipers
11-05-2004, 01:27 PM
#1
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Brake system question... regarding calipers
I recently discovered that BOTH of my rear calipers are seized open on me 
I dont know how long they have been like this but it got me very concerned. How significant are these compared to the front calipers? I was told they take care of 70% of the braking while the fronts help to support the braking process of the backs. I dunno if thats true of not....
Anyways i bought 2 new rear calipers today locally for $90 each (rebuilt) and pads. Im having them installed tomorrow. I was just curious if that statement was really true? sorry for the newb question, hehe!
thanks,
Ant
I dont know how long they have been like this but it got me very concerned. How significant are these compared to the front calipers? I was told they take care of 70% of the braking while the fronts help to support the braking process of the backs. I dunno if thats true of not....Anyways i bought 2 new rear calipers today locally for $90 each (rebuilt) and pads. Im having them installed tomorrow. I was just curious if that statement was really true? sorry for the newb question, hehe!
thanks,
Ant
11-05-2004, 02:11 PM
#2
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The front brakes due most of your braking,,,not thr rear,,,,the pistons in the calipers seize if the brake fluid is not flushed evry so often,,,flush the system until the fluid is clear!!!!,,,,also if the boots on the pistons are torn, they will corrode rapidly and cause seizing pistons/caliper
with your new calipers in stalled, make sure the system is well flushed and do it every so often,,,use good brake fluid,,most brake fluids/the cheap stuff absorbs moisture,,,
with your new calipers in stalled, make sure the system is well flushed and do it every so often,,,use good brake fluid,,most brake fluids/the cheap stuff absorbs moisture,,,
11-05-2004, 02:45 PM
#3
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The front brakes handle somewhere between 66% to 75% of your braking. The rears are very important all the same -- you need the right balance for optimal braking. Also, note your parking brake engages on the rear discs.
4th Gen Maximas seem to have a history of rear calipers seizing. I am not sure if it is caused by not flushing the system or maybe just a weakness in the design.
All DOT-3 and DOT-4 brake fluid absorbs water over time, including the expensive stuff. It is a good idea to flush the brakes system and put in fresh fluid at least every couple of years, or when you start experiencing brake fade due to old fluid.
4th Gen Maximas seem to have a history of rear calipers seizing. I am not sure if it is caused by not flushing the system or maybe just a weakness in the design.
All DOT-3 and DOT-4 brake fluid absorbs water over time, including the expensive stuff. It is a good idea to flush the brakes system and put in fresh fluid at least every couple of years, or when you start experiencing brake fade due to old fluid.
11-05-2004, 02:58 PM
#4
my rear left is on the verge of seizing....or is half seized, mine is due to the piston rubber surround(boot) is ripped
i just check the temp of each rotor after driving, and usually the rear remain somewhat cool....however when i checked mine the left rear was hotter than the front rotors which raised a caution flag
i'm replacing both rears sometime this weekend
i just check the temp of each rotor after driving, and usually the rear remain somewhat cool....however when i checked mine the left rear was hotter than the front rotors which raised a caution flag
i'm replacing both rears sometime this weekend
11-05-2004, 07:38 PM
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thanks for the feedback guys!
my boy Frank is a certified Lexus/Toyota mechanic and hes doing all the work at his dealerships shop so id assume they use good fluids and what not there. If i see its a crap no-name ill run to pepboys and get some good stuff, but hey i cant complain hes not charging for the brake job or alignment
Ant
my boy Frank is a certified Lexus/Toyota mechanic and hes doing all the work at his dealerships shop so id assume they use good fluids and what not there. If i see its a crap no-name ill run to pepboys and get some good stuff, but hey i cant complain hes not charging for the brake job or alignment
Ant
11-08-2004, 07:26 AM
#6
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One of the cause, maybe the main one, why rear calipers freeze on the MAxima, is because the ebrake is not actuated regularly.
The ebrake has a ratchet mechanism inside the rear caliper that picks up the slack between the pads and the rotors, as the pads wear out. This is the auto-adjusting function. When actuated, the caliper piston is forced out and remains in that position, untill the pads wearing thinner will cause the piston to move out by another notch by the ratchet mechanism, and so on.
If the ebrake is not used regularly, the caliper piston does not get a chance to move out, and might eventually seize.
Also, bad lubrication on rear caliper sliding pins could be as cause of seizing calipers. It's a good preventive maintenance to lube these pins twice a year, say when you rotate the tires.
The ebrake has a ratchet mechanism inside the rear caliper that picks up the slack between the pads and the rotors, as the pads wear out. This is the auto-adjusting function. When actuated, the caliper piston is forced out and remains in that position, untill the pads wearing thinner will cause the piston to move out by another notch by the ratchet mechanism, and so on.
If the ebrake is not used regularly, the caliper piston does not get a chance to move out, and might eventually seize.
Also, bad lubrication on rear caliper sliding pins could be as cause of seizing calipers. It's a good preventive maintenance to lube these pins twice a year, say when you rotate the tires.
11-08-2004, 08:45 AM
#7
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Originally Posted by twiggy144
If the ebrake is not used regularly, the caliper piston does not get a chance to move out, and might eventually seize.
11-08-2004, 12:47 PM
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Agree njmax, but just for a few mm. Interesting discussion. The ratchet mechanism pushes the piston further out, because much pressure is applied on the piston through the cam activated by the ebrake lever. When the brake pedal is applied, the proportionning valve dampens the fluid pressure on the rear brakes, resulting in less force pushing out the rear pistons, than with the ebrake. As an example, it's hard to lock the rear wheels when using the service brake (pedal), but with the ebrake in good working condition, it's easy to lock the rear wheels by pulling on the handle: there is more pressure on the rear pistons.
11-08-2004, 01:44 PM
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NAhhh
The rear calipers have app 20 different pieces inside. A caliper overall would require change some of these as well, if worn. I wouldn't recommend it. Buy a new one (reconditionned) and swap the old in the trade. The front calipers are much more simpler. No parts inside.
The rear calipers have app 20 different pieces inside. A caliper overall would require change some of these as well, if worn. I wouldn't recommend it. Buy a new one (reconditionned) and swap the old in the trade. The front calipers are much more simpler. No parts inside.
11-08-2004, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by twiggy144
Agree njmax, but just for a few mm. Interesting discussion. The ratchet mechanism pushes the piston further out, because much pressure is applied on the piston through the cam activated by the ebrake lever. When the brake pedal is applied, the proportionning valve dampens the fluid pressure on the rear brakes, resulting in less force pushing out the rear pistons, than with the ebrake. As an example, it's hard to lock the rear wheels when using the service brake (pedal), but with the ebrake in good working condition, it's easy to lock the rear wheels by pulling on the handle: there is more pressure on the rear pistons.
More pressure means a higher braking force (ie more friction) not necessarily more displacement.
11-08-2004, 06:25 PM
#13
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Originally Posted by eng92
I am afraid I am going to have to disagree with your logic. The piston moves essentially the same amount whether you are pulling on the hand brake or pushing the pedal. The piston stops moving once the pads contact the rotor. There may be a few microns more movement with the hand brake as the extra force compresses the pad material a fraction more.
More pressure means a higher braking force (ie more friction) not necessarily more displacement.
More pressure means a higher braking force (ie more friction) not necessarily more displacement.
....aaaaHHHH...A more interesting and apparently more logical fact
I think this appears to be the correct answer to piston travel
11-09-2004, 06:57 AM
#14
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Agree, the piston travel is the same: once it makes contact with the rotor, it practically stops there.
Pads wear. Eventually the pads will wear thin enough, (I'm talking less than one millileter +/- wear ) to create a small gap between the pad and the rotor. This is when the ratchet mechanism inside the caliper will come into play. At that point, when the ebrake is applied, there will be enough play for the ratchet to turn further and jump by one tooth, or by one "click". This will move the piston further out, closing the gap between the rotor and the pad. One way to experiment this, is to have a helper continuously pull and release the ebrake handle, while the caliper is removed from it's normal position. You will observe the piston being pushed out at every stroke of the ebrake handle.
Using the ebrake regularly pushes out the piston, and helps in preventing it's seizing.
Pads wear. Eventually the pads will wear thin enough, (I'm talking less than one millileter +/- wear ) to create a small gap between the pad and the rotor. This is when the ratchet mechanism inside the caliper will come into play. At that point, when the ebrake is applied, there will be enough play for the ratchet to turn further and jump by one tooth, or by one "click". This will move the piston further out, closing the gap between the rotor and the pad. One way to experiment this, is to have a helper continuously pull and release the ebrake handle, while the caliper is removed from it's normal position. You will observe the piston being pushed out at every stroke of the ebrake handle.
Using the ebrake regularly pushes out the piston, and helps in preventing it's seizing.
11-09-2004, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by twiggy144
Agree, the piston travel is the same: once it makes contact with the rotor, it practically stops there.
Pads wear. Eventually the pads will wear thin enough, (I'm talking less than one millileter +/- wear ) to create a small gap between the pad and the rotor. This is when the ratchet mechanism inside the caliper will come into play. At that point, when the ebrake is applied, there will be enough play for the ratchet to turn further and jump by one tooth, or by one "click". This will move the piston further out, closing the gap between the rotor and the pad. One way to experiment this, is to have a helper continuously pull and release the ebrake handle, while the caliper is removed from it's normal position. You will observe the piston being pushed out at every stroke of the ebrake handle.
Using the ebrake regularly pushes out the piston, and helps in preventing it's seizing.
Pads wear. Eventually the pads will wear thin enough, (I'm talking less than one millileter +/- wear ) to create a small gap between the pad and the rotor. This is when the ratchet mechanism inside the caliper will come into play. At that point, when the ebrake is applied, there will be enough play for the ratchet to turn further and jump by one tooth, or by one "click". This will move the piston further out, closing the gap between the rotor and the pad. One way to experiment this, is to have a helper continuously pull and release the ebrake handle, while the caliper is removed from it's normal position. You will observe the piston being pushed out at every stroke of the ebrake handle.
Using the ebrake regularly pushes out the piston, and helps in preventing it's seizing.
By pulling the e-brake handle regularly, the only things you stop from seizing are the parts associated only with the e-brake (ie. cables and ratcheting mechanism.
As the pads wear thinner, the piston moves with them whether you use the e-brake or not. Why do you think your fluid level in the master cylinder drops as your pads wear? Your wheel cylinders are not double acting, there is no fluid pressure acting on the other side of the piston to push the piston back in when you release the brake pedal. The only force acting to push your pads away from your rotors come from the two small springs that clip onto the top of them.
I have done atleast 50 brake jobs on half a dozen vehicles, and I have never seen a significant gap if any between the pads and the rotor rear or front(where there is no e-brake.)
The only thing that causes caliper pistons to seize in their bores is lack of maintenance. I flush my braking system every year and have never had a piston seize.
With lack of maintenance, the reason why the rear caliper will seize first is that the piston area is a lot smaller than the front. With a lot more force acting on the front pistons, it takes a lot more corrosion to seize them in the bores.
And yes larger diameter means more area for corrosion, but the amount of corrosion increases linearly with diameter (circumference) but the force to overcome it goes up with the square (piston area).
""The only thing that causes caliper pistons to seize in their bores is lack of maintenance. I flush my braking system every year and have never had a piston seize""
11-09-2004, 09:16 AM
#17
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Originally Posted by twiggy144
Agree, the piston travel is the same: once it makes contact with the rotor, it practically stops there.
Pads wear. Eventually the pads will wear thin enough, (I'm talking less than one millileter +/- wear ) to create a small gap between the pad and the rotor. This is when the ratchet mechanism inside the caliper will come into play. At that point, when the ebrake is applied, there will be enough play for the ratchet to turn further and jump by one tooth, or by one "click". This will move the piston further out, closing the gap between the rotor and the pad. One way to experiment this, is to have a helper continuously pull and release the ebrake handle, while the caliper is removed from it's normal position. You will observe the piston being pushed out at every stroke of the ebrake handle.
Using the ebrake regularly pushes out the piston, and helps in preventing it's seizing.
Pads wear. Eventually the pads will wear thin enough, (I'm talking less than one millileter +/- wear ) to create a small gap between the pad and the rotor. This is when the ratchet mechanism inside the caliper will come into play. At that point, when the ebrake is applied, there will be enough play for the ratchet to turn further and jump by one tooth, or by one "click". This will move the piston further out, closing the gap between the rotor and the pad. One way to experiment this, is to have a helper continuously pull and release the ebrake handle, while the caliper is removed from it's normal position. You will observe the piston being pushed out at every stroke of the ebrake handle.
Using the ebrake regularly pushes out the piston, and helps in preventing it's seizing.
11-10-2004, 09:21 AM
#18
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Last year, the ebrake cable on the pax side was frozen, probably pinched by a lift pad, as described in a Nissan tech bulletin. I dont know for how long it had not been working. Guess what, the caliper on the same side was seized as well. There is the link between ebrake usage vs preventing caliper seizing.
11-10-2004, 09:57 AM
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twiggy144
When you say caliper seized, are you referring to the brake piston seizing or the caliper seizing on the sliders?
Regardless of which one you are referring to, the only way either one of them will seize is due to corrosion.
Corrosion is a result of water contamination in your braking system. The water is either in your hygroscopic brake fluid or enters in through a torn or missing boot.
Flushing your system regularly keeps the water out of your brake fluid. Inspecting your braking system regularly catches torn or missing boots..
Either way, it all boils down to simple preventative maintenance PM.
It is very unfortunate that the majority of the drivers on the road do not believe in PM. They wait until something starts making an unusual noise or doesn't work at all before taking it to a mechanic.
Lack of e-brake usage does not contribute to seizing of brake calipers.
To date, you have not presented one logical point to connect the two.
Corrosion due to lack of PM causes calipers to seize.
edit - If your ebake was on when the cable was pinched, I suppose it is possible that the brake did not release fully on that side when you put the e-brake handle down. The heat generated from a partially "on" brake would boil your brake fluid and greatly accelerate any corrosion already in process. I would expect to see the rotor possibly warp and you would be able to smell that "lovely" burnt brake linings scent whenever you drove the car.
But this is a completely different area we are getting into. This is pre-existing damage causing the failure of another component.
All my discussions to date have been based on the assumption that all systems were in good working order.
So if your e-brake cable had not been pinched and you do regular brake system PMs and you never use your e-brake your calipers should never seize.
Please do not bother re-posting unless you can present us with an official document from Nissan to all their maxima owners telling them to use their e-brake regularly to avoid seizing their rear calipers.
When you say caliper seized, are you referring to the brake piston seizing or the caliper seizing on the sliders?
Regardless of which one you are referring to, the only way either one of them will seize is due to corrosion.
Corrosion is a result of water contamination in your braking system. The water is either in your hygroscopic brake fluid or enters in through a torn or missing boot.
Flushing your system regularly keeps the water out of your brake fluid. Inspecting your braking system regularly catches torn or missing boots..
Either way, it all boils down to simple preventative maintenance PM.
It is very unfortunate that the majority of the drivers on the road do not believe in PM. They wait until something starts making an unusual noise or doesn't work at all before taking it to a mechanic.
Lack of e-brake usage does not contribute to seizing of brake calipers.
To date, you have not presented one logical point to connect the two.
Corrosion due to lack of PM causes calipers to seize.
edit - If your ebake was on when the cable was pinched, I suppose it is possible that the brake did not release fully on that side when you put the e-brake handle down. The heat generated from a partially "on" brake would boil your brake fluid and greatly accelerate any corrosion already in process. I would expect to see the rotor possibly warp and you would be able to smell that "lovely" burnt brake linings scent whenever you drove the car.
But this is a completely different area we are getting into. This is pre-existing damage causing the failure of another component.
All my discussions to date have been based on the assumption that all systems were in good working order.
So if your e-brake cable had not been pinched and you do regular brake system PMs and you never use your e-brake your calipers should never seize.
Please do not bother re-posting unless you can present us with an official document from Nissan to all their maxima owners telling them to use their e-brake regularly to avoid seizing their rear calipers.
11-10-2004, 12:54 PM
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I was always refering to caliper PISTONS seizing, not the caliper in the sliders. I guess we were arguing over the wrong thing.
If you dont regularly use the ebrake in a rust (salted) area, parts that are designed to move WILL rust and seize. Living in Ontario, I'm sure you know that. I like to keep moving parts, moving. Cheap insurance for me to use the ebrake daily. And I agree with you regarding PM and changing brake fluids, and lubing slider pins, and inspecting boots, etc. By all means if you dont like the idea of using the ebrake, don't. I do. And i'd like to share and discuss my experience here.
No auto manufacturer will officially declare their cars dont work as well if sold and operated in Canada.
This reminds me of a few canadian court rulings against domestic manufacturers. In one case, the plantiff had paint delamination. The defendant claimed sun was responsible. The judge decision was that cars sold must withstand the effects of the sun (isn't this obvious?) In another court case, a car would not start on cold winter days. The manufacturer claimed winters were too cold. Judge ruled against the manufacturer: "you sell a car over here, it has to be fit for the intent it's sold for. "
Anyhow, I doubt a manufacturer will officially declare; "Mr. Customer, please do this and that, because our cars do well in California, but they are bad in Canada. "
If you dont regularly use the ebrake in a rust (salted) area, parts that are designed to move WILL rust and seize. Living in Ontario, I'm sure you know that. I like to keep moving parts, moving. Cheap insurance for me to use the ebrake daily. And I agree with you regarding PM and changing brake fluids, and lubing slider pins, and inspecting boots, etc. By all means if you dont like the idea of using the ebrake, don't. I do. And i'd like to share and discuss my experience here.
No auto manufacturer will officially declare their cars dont work as well if sold and operated in Canada.
This reminds me of a few canadian court rulings against domestic manufacturers. In one case, the plantiff had paint delamination. The defendant claimed sun was responsible. The judge decision was that cars sold must withstand the effects of the sun (isn't this obvious?) In another court case, a car would not start on cold winter days. The manufacturer claimed winters were too cold. Judge ruled against the manufacturer: "you sell a car over here, it has to be fit for the intent it's sold for. "
Anyhow, I doubt a manufacturer will officially declare; "Mr. Customer, please do this and that, because our cars do well in California, but they are bad in Canada. "
11-10-2004, 02:03 PM
#21
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twiggy144 - read your PM
ny96max and everyone else - I would like to apologize for wasting everyone's time with this nonsense discussion. Do your regular preventative maintenance and you will be problem free.
ny96max and everyone else - I would like to apologize for wasting everyone's time with this nonsense discussion. Do your regular preventative maintenance and you will be problem free.
11-10-2004, 07:10 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by eng92
twiggy144 - read your PM
ny96max and everyone else - I would like to apologize for wasting everyone's time with this nonsense discussion. Do your regular preventative maintenance and you will be problem free.
ny96max and everyone else - I would like to apologize for wasting everyone's time with this nonsense discussion. Do your regular preventative maintenance and you will be problem free.
that fixes it every time..the good old guide pin 
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