Strut bars
01-17-2006, 09:10 PM
#42
Your FSB won't do anything if:
a) You didn't install it right with it pushing out against your strut mounts
b) Install it with both front wheels off the ground and the front struts unloaded.
I only truely noticed it work well when I actually jack my car up, put the front end on jack stands, put on the bar and adjusted properly and lowered it back down. Took it for a spin: front end lean was around 20-30% less. Immediately.
a) You didn't install it right with it pushing out against your strut mounts
b) Install it with both front wheels off the ground and the front struts unloaded.
I only truely noticed it work well when I actually jack my car up, put the front end on jack stands, put on the bar and adjusted properly and lowered it back down. Took it for a spin: front end lean was around 20-30% less. Immediately.
01-18-2006, 03:11 AM
#43
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 866
ethnic6,
FSTB make a difference. I wonder if those who say it doesn't have actually pushed their car to the limit and beyond. The difference is not as drastic as adding the RSB, but steering response is crisper, and body lean is reduced by a decent amount. It gives the front end a more "planted" and solid feel, without increasing understeer or affecting ride comfort. I'm still on stock '97 SE struts/springs, so this may be why I can feel the difference while others can't. I also wonder if those who can't notice it are on stock struts/springs. If they have upgraded that part of their suspension, they may not be able to tell the difference as much as the new struts/springs will have increased their handling.
I've been through a professional driving course (National Academy of Professional Drivers Police Pursuit package), and have been in numerous pursuits as a larger city police officer. Not to mention the daily driving like a bat out of hell and really pushing cars to their limit (and beyond). With that training comes a fine-tuned ability to notice subtle nuances in a car's handling characteristics. I could even notice the subtle differences between individual Police Interceptors within the same model year and approximate mileage. Each car has its own personality. On both of my Maxima's (a '96 GXE RIP and '97 SE), the same FSTB increased the steering response and decreased the body roll. My other suspension mods are only a RSB, RSTB, and Energy Suspension polyuerethane FSB bushings. I did one mod at a time, and noticed a difference with all but perhaps the RSTB. But it makes a cool holder for road gear so it doesn't flop in my trunk.
The RSB made the most drastic change, followed by FSTB, and then FSB bushings. The FSB bushings really increased steering response and steering "feel", without increasing vibration or harshness.
My wife even noticed the lack of my FSTB when I had taken it off without her knowing. To her, the car just wasn't handling right. And I'm sure she wasn't even taking it to the limit while driving through town. It just gives that much of a more solid, sure-footed feel to the front end. If she can notice that, then there must be a difference with it installed.
Dave
FSTB make a difference. I wonder if those who say it doesn't have actually pushed their car to the limit and beyond. The difference is not as drastic as adding the RSB, but steering response is crisper, and body lean is reduced by a decent amount. It gives the front end a more "planted" and solid feel, without increasing understeer or affecting ride comfort. I'm still on stock '97 SE struts/springs, so this may be why I can feel the difference while others can't. I also wonder if those who can't notice it are on stock struts/springs. If they have upgraded that part of their suspension, they may not be able to tell the difference as much as the new struts/springs will have increased their handling.
I've been through a professional driving course (National Academy of Professional Drivers Police Pursuit package), and have been in numerous pursuits as a larger city police officer. Not to mention the daily driving like a bat out of hell and really pushing cars to their limit (and beyond). With that training comes a fine-tuned ability to notice subtle nuances in a car's handling characteristics. I could even notice the subtle differences between individual Police Interceptors within the same model year and approximate mileage. Each car has its own personality. On both of my Maxima's (a '96 GXE RIP and '97 SE), the same FSTB increased the steering response and decreased the body roll. My other suspension mods are only a RSB, RSTB, and Energy Suspension polyuerethane FSB bushings. I did one mod at a time, and noticed a difference with all but perhaps the RSTB. But it makes a cool holder for road gear so it doesn't flop in my trunk.
The RSB made the most drastic change, followed by FSTB, and then FSB bushings. The FSB bushings really increased steering response and steering "feel", without increasing vibration or harshness.
My wife even noticed the lack of my FSTB when I had taken it off without her knowing. To her, the car just wasn't handling right. And I'm sure she wasn't even taking it to the limit while driving through town. It just gives that much of a more solid, sure-footed feel to the front end. If she can notice that, then there must be a difference with it installed.
Dave
01-18-2006, 03:46 AM
#44
I got mine off of ebay for about $25 shipped or so. I got the OTTO bar, which I had heard good things about, I guess. I have heard that it will do a big enough difference that you will be able to fell it under hard driving with stock suspension. It is definitely a good investment for the price.
01-18-2006, 08:54 AM
#45
A good FSTB gives you more stable, predictable, consistent handling. It will also help keep your front end from being thrown off when you run over bumps, and might actually smooth out your ride a little. It might give you more understeer, but only because your front end was flexing before and keeping both front wheels on the ground. Grip due to chassis flex is inconsistent and easily disturbed, so it's probably not something you should feel bad without.
A RSB serves to sharpen your cornering response for a nimbler-feeling car. It might or might not actually make your car able to take corners much faster. Either way, though, it will definitely reduce understeer and make your car quicker to react to your steering inputs. The only serious downside is that it will make your rear end more volatile, so it will be more likely to slip out on slippery roads or if you hit a bump in mid-corner.
A RSB serves to sharpen your cornering response for a nimbler-feeling car. It might or might not actually make your car able to take corners much faster. Either way, though, it will definitely reduce understeer and make your car quicker to react to your steering inputs. The only serious downside is that it will make your rear end more volatile, so it will be more likely to slip out on slippery roads or if you hit a bump in mid-corner.
01-18-2006, 06:22 PM
#46
Originally Posted by nismos14
FSB, RSTB, RSB.... Most overrated mods.
01-18-2006, 06:30 PM
#47
Nismos said overrated, not did not work. I believe that is true for the RSTB (not doing anything).
RSB good if your not lowered.
FSTB good mod.
As long as you do not expect a world of difference, you will be happy. I currenlty have the FSTB, and RSB on my Max.
RSB good if your not lowered.
FSTB good mod.
As long as you do not expect a world of difference, you will be happy. I currenlty have the FSTB, and RSB on my Max.
01-18-2006, 06:35 PM
#48
Originally Posted by 1996blackmax
Nismos said overrated, not did not work. I believe that is true for the RSTB (not doing anything).
RSB good if your not lowered.
FSTB good mod.
As long as you do not expect a world of difference, you will be happy. I currenlty have the FSTB, and RSB on my Max.
RSB good if your not lowered.
FSTB good mod.
As long as you do not expect a world of difference, you will be happy. I currenlty have the FSTB, and RSB on my Max.
01-18-2006, 06:46 PM
#49
I put these things on before I lowered my car.
The FSTB made the car feel a little tigther on turns at moderate speeds (an example would be on freeway on-ramps). This was really about the only time I felt a difference. One other thing I noticed was that my A-pillars stopped making noises when making turns (that really use to bother me).
The RSB was the mod I felt the most. This was due to my car not being lowered when it first went on. It was really nice to take tight turns with the car feeling more planted to the ground. At higher speeds the car lost that nasty wabbly feeling, very apparent when driving on a turn over uneven surfaces. Most feel this mod is not necessary once you lower your car, and that it actually makes the car's ride harsher over uneven surfaces. I plan on taking mine off soon.
Hope this was helpful
.
The FSTB made the car feel a little tigther on turns at moderate speeds (an example would be on freeway on-ramps). This was really about the only time I felt a difference. One other thing I noticed was that my A-pillars stopped making noises when making turns (that really use to bother me).
The RSB was the mod I felt the most. This was due to my car not being lowered when it first went on. It was really nice to take tight turns with the car feeling more planted to the ground. At higher speeds the car lost that nasty wabbly feeling, very apparent when driving on a turn over uneven surfaces. Most feel this mod is not necessary once you lower your car, and that it actually makes the car's ride harsher over uneven surfaces. I plan on taking mine off soon.
Hope this was helpful
.
01-18-2006, 07:11 PM
#50
how many of u have actually pushed ur car hard on a roadcourse or auto-x course....if u have u would actually be able to tell differences....sure the FSTB in not much but its noticeable on track days....the RSB is noticable on daily drviing but really shines on auto-x days....i have pushed my car numerous times with and without both these mods and they make world of difference when ur competing within 1/100th of a second....a comment about RSB is that ur back end becomes more volitale....if u know how to drive its a great asset.....when u put in on u have to learn what it does for the car and get used to it.....and ur backend will not magically fishtail just because u have a RSB...it still takes alot to get it out.....even during auto-x when u want it too
01-19-2006, 06:59 AM
#51
Originally Posted by 1996blackmax
RSB good if your not lowered.
I'm getting sick of hearing people say this.
The ONLY complaints I've EVER heard about a RSB have been from people who have had spring-and-strut combos. People on stock suspension and people with full coilovers don't seem to mind as much. So let me break it down for you.
First, in short:
- Stock suspension + RSB = Fine
- Full coilovers + RSB = Great
- Lowering springs + RSB = Not so great
Now, the explanation:
When your car is stock, its understeer bias is really huge, so adding a RSB won't completely eliminate it. That means your car turns a little better, but doesn't completely lose the rear end when you hit a bump in mid-corner. So, car handles better, you stay safe, everyone's happy.
When your car is lowered on full coilovers (not spring-and-sleeve "coilovers" like Ground Controls), assuming you didn't get custom spring rates, you still have a big understeer bias because the front springs on those kits are much stiffer than the rears. Of course the limits are so much higher that you won't see that understeer nearly as much, but it's still there at the limit. Here, too, adding a RSB won't completely eliminate your understeer bias, so all you get is quicker response with a little extra skittishness in the rear sometimes. Nothing to worry about. Plus, the big front springs tend to help keep your rear end planted if it hits a bump, which makes things even better. This is pretty much the best combo you can possibly have for handling.
Spring-and-strut combos (Eibach/Illumina, Maxspeed/AGX, etc. etc...) do NOT have the same understeer bias because they don't have massively stiffer front springs. A RSB in this situation can make things a little dicey because it lessens the understeer bias even further, making your car more likely to oversteer. Moreover, you don't have the benefit of big honkin' front springs to keep the rear end planted if you hit a bump in mid-corner. Hence, some people don't like RSBs when lowered.
01-19-2006, 08:00 AM
#52
100% chingon
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,003
These EBay bars, they look to be fine in tension, but in compression? Something held together by a single bolt at each end gives me no confidence under a compressive load.
Question: Do the front towers only move *apart* under cornering loads, never towards each other? If so, then those cheap bars will be fine. If not, I think I will make my own FSTB from alloy hollow-box stock.
Question: Do the front towers only move *apart* under cornering loads, never towards each other? If so, then those cheap bars will be fine. If not, I think I will make my own FSTB from alloy hollow-box stock.
01-19-2006, 08:51 AM
#54
Originally Posted by d00df00d
I'm getting sick of hearing people say this.
The ONLY complaints I've EVER heard about a RSB have been from people who have had spring-and-strut combos. People on stock suspension and people with full coilovers don't seem to mind as much. So let me break it down for you.
First, in short:
- Stock suspension + RSB = Fine
- Full coilovers + RSB = Great
- Lowering springs + RSB = Not so great
Now, the explanation:
When your car is stock, its understeer bias is really huge, so adding a RSB won't completely eliminate it. That means your car turns a little better, but doesn't completely lose the rear end when you hit a bump in mid-corner. So, car handles better, you stay safe, everyone's happy.
When your car is lowered on full coilovers (not spring-and-sleeve "coilovers" like Ground Controls), assuming you didn't get custom spring rates, you still have a big understeer bias because the front springs on those kits are much stiffer than the rears. Of course the limits are so much higher that you won't see that understeer nearly as much, but it's still there at the limit. Here, too, adding a RSB won't completely eliminate your understeer bias, so all you get is quicker response with a little extra skittishness in the rear sometimes. Nothing to worry about. Plus, the big front springs tend to help keep your rear end planted if it hits a bump, which makes things even better. This is pretty much the best combo you can possibly have for handling.
Spring-and-strut combos (Eibach/Illumina, Maxspeed/AGX, etc. etc...) do NOT have the same understeer bias because they don't have massively stiffer front springs. A RSB in this situation can make things a little dicey because it lessens the understeer bias even further, making your car more likely to oversteer. Moreover, you don't have the benefit of big honkin' front springs to keep the rear end planted if you hit a bump in mid-corner. Hence, some people don't like RSBs when lowered.
01-19-2006, 09:04 AM
#55
Originally Posted by d00df00d
I'm getting sick of hearing people say this.
That's you. I noticed that my ride became more compliant over unvene surfaces when I took the RSB off a while back. I put it back on to try it out, and make sure it was not in my head. It was not. I really did not notice much loss in handling when I took the bar off. I took a drive up to the local mountains with it off too (lots of twisty roads). For me with my car being lowered it did not make as large as an impact as when it was not lowered. If you do a search you would find out this is something that has been covered here for a while. The guys who also commented on this were some of the more experienced guys on here, but I still tried it out myself (they were right). I do not know if they hang out here anymore, as I hang out more in the audio section. Take it for what you want, the guy asked me for my opinion, and I gave it
.
01-19-2006, 09:21 AM
#56
Fine. But you said "if you're not lowered", which implies that there's some kind of magical phenomenon that makes an RSB bad for your car once you're no longer on the stock suspension. That's just not the case. It very much depends on what your setup is.
Plus, some people don't want extra compliance, some people don't mind a little skittishness in the rear as long as they kill their understeer, etc. etc...
That's why saying a RSB is categorically "good if you're not lowered" is mildly absurd.
Plus, some people don't want extra compliance, some people don't mind a little skittishness in the rear as long as they kill their understeer, etc. etc...
That's why saying a RSB is categorically "good if you're not lowered" is mildly absurd.
01-19-2006, 09:41 AM
#57
Mildly absurd, not really.
For me the gains if any once the car is lowered does not outweigh the additional harshness over uneven surfaces. This is specially true while just driving around the streets here in San Diego. Some would and have argued that the car has a better overall feel if your car is lowered and does not have the RSB on. Like I said these things were discussed a while back. Good thing to donate and search. As for my bar, as soon as I get a little better it is coming off.
For me the gains if any once the car is lowered does not outweigh the additional harshness over uneven surfaces. This is specially true while just driving around the streets here in San Diego. Some would and have argued that the car has a better overall feel if your car is lowered and does not have the RSB on. Like I said these things were discussed a while back. Good thing to donate and search. As for my bar, as soon as I get a little better it is coming off
.
01-19-2006, 10:35 AM
#58
...Didja read what I said or what?
See the trend here? What about someone who is not you, who likes the effects, who doesn't mind the harshness, who does not live in San Diego, and whose car is set up differently? Your criticisms are based on preferences and factors that are perfectly valid and respectable, but simply do not apply to everyone.
Plus, you haven't addressed the point about a RSB being perfectly fine if you're lowered on coilovers instead of lowering springs. Out of all the posts where people have said a RSB isn't a good mod, show me one -- just one -- where the person was basing his/her comments on experience in a car with full coilovers rather than lowering springs.
I'm going to repeat this once more, and only once more -- but I'm going to put it in big font, just to be sure it's clear:
Whether a RSB is worth it depends ENTIRELY on your setup and your preferences. Its effects are too complex and depend too much on other parts of the suspension for anyone to be able to say that it's generally good or generally bad.
Originally Posted by 1996blackmax
For me the gains if any once the car is lowered does not outweigh the additional harshness over uneven surfaces. This is specially true while just driving around the streets here in San Diego. Some would and have argued that the car has a better overall feel if your car is lowered and does not have the RSB on.
Plus, you haven't addressed the point about a RSB being perfectly fine if you're lowered on coilovers instead of lowering springs. Out of all the posts where people have said a RSB isn't a good mod, show me one -- just one -- where the person was basing his/her comments on experience in a car with full coilovers rather than lowering springs.
I'm going to repeat this once more, and only once more -- but I'm going to put it in big font, just to be sure it's clear:
Whether a RSB is worth it depends ENTIRELY on your setup and your preferences. Its effects are too complex and depend too much on other parts of the suspension for anyone to be able to say that it's generally good or generally bad.
.
01-19-2006, 11:04 AM
#60
Interesting. And here I am thinking that the custom user text, "I Support Maxima.org" icon, and big honkin' avatar are clear indications that I've donated. If you couldn't see those, I really don't know what to say.
For the record, I have searched many, many times on this exact topic, on the same terms I've been talking on. If I hadn't, I wouldn't be so forward about what I've read.
Plus, you still haven't directly addressed the points I've made, whereas I have dissected and directly addressed yours thoroughly.
If you can't see what's right in front of you, and if you and I are not debating on the same level, I'm hardly encouraged to keep arguing with you.
For the record, I have searched many, many times on this exact topic, on the same terms I've been talking on. If I hadn't, I wouldn't be so forward about what I've read.
Plus, you still haven't directly addressed the points I've made, whereas I have dissected and directly addressed yours thoroughly.
If you can't see what's right in front of you, and if you and I are not debating on the same level, I'm hardly encouraged to keep arguing with you.
01-19-2006, 11:27 AM
#61
doodfood is totally right.....u can be lowered on H&Rs or Progress springs with illuminas or AGXs set to soft and the sway bar may not be as drastic jsut because of the rates.....now switch over to GC or Eibach where teh rates are much stiffer and u may notice more "twichyness" or whatever or bumps and what not....true coilovers are a totally different story just becuase they the comobos are precisly matched.......if u don like it dont use it....i love mine
01-19-2006, 02:45 PM
#69
Originally Posted by clive
These EBay bars, they look to be fine in tension, but in compression? Something held together by a single bolt at each end gives me no confidence under a compressive load.
Question: Do the front towers only move *apart* under cornering loads, never towards each other? If so, then those cheap bars will be fine. If not, I think I will make my own FSTB from alloy hollow-box stock.
Question: Do the front towers only move *apart* under cornering loads, never towards each other? If so, then those cheap bars will be fine. If not, I think I will make my own FSTB from alloy hollow-box stock.
01-19-2006, 03:04 PM
#70
Originally Posted by aussie983
The strenth of steel in compression and tension is around the same, so it dont matter which way the force goes. .
but any fleabay bar should be good enough for the forces we are dealing with here.
01-19-2006, 10:08 PM
#71
Originally Posted by buttonhook
NOT TRUE!!!!!!!!!!! steel is MUCH MUCH stronger in tension!! that is why you use steel and concrete together concrete is good in compression and steel in good in tension!!!! check with any engineer(oh wait I am one) but any fleabay bar should be good enough for the forces we are dealing with here.
but any fleabay bar should be good enough for the forces we are dealing with here.A lil off topic, but your reference to concrete isnt totally valid. Concrete is way stronger in compression (about 10X), but steel is a cheap and effective way to reinforce the section of a concrete beam that would be in tension thats why it is used, not because steel is superior in tension. Look it up if you dont believe me, but thats what i learnt.
01-20-2006, 06:26 AM
#72
But would you use steel cables to push up a car? (I wasn't wanting to get into a statics and strenght or materals debate) I was just trying to stop a line of thought that was going in the wrong direction.(most people would not understand this stuff anyway right?) I was just using the concrete as an exaple that everyone could see.
01-21-2006, 12:50 AM
#77
Originally Posted by ethnic6
just got my struts from Ebay for 20 bucks, waiting for it to be shipped, I'll post a pic when I get it on my engine mount
01-21-2006, 08:33 AM
#78
Originally Posted by ethnic6
hey u never know, I think it would be a good addition to my car, so why not be proud of it and post some pics?
Bc 95% of us already have one, but whatever floats your boat Charlie. Also it goes on the strut mount
