I have a huge problem....Thrust washer (cam)?
04-20-2006, 11:51 AM
#1
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I have a huge problem....Thrust washer (cam)?
In short because I don't have it in me to type out the whole tale of woe every step of the miserable way right now....
I had been having problems getting my car started and it got progressively worse over the months so i got to having it fixed. After being in ht e shop for a week twice and a month once and spending a buttload of money....nothing.
Through process of elimination (steps I can't type out...just too much) my mechanic determined it to be the thrust washer which is some piece in the cam mechanism that keeps or positions it so as not to move front to back or something....basically he's saying it's worn and isn't lining up properly so it senses that issue and is causing the issue. I can and will fill you in on what has been eliminated so far but it's just too much to type right now.
He's a good guy and I've been informed as to what he's looked at and eliminated and i have a fair understanding of it all and blah blah blah....Anyone here know anything about this or gone through it? It's too deep and expensive to fix according to him but the car does run....it just takes anywhere fro 3 to 30 seconds to catch and start. I'm going to post this and hope to start a dialogue before I write a book. PLEASE HELP WITH ANY INPUT!
Thank,
Thom
I had been having problems getting my car started and it got progressively worse over the months so i got to having it fixed. After being in ht e shop for a week twice and a month once and spending a buttload of money....nothing.
Through process of elimination (steps I can't type out...just too much) my mechanic determined it to be the thrust washer which is some piece in the cam mechanism that keeps or positions it so as not to move front to back or something....basically he's saying it's worn and isn't lining up properly so it senses that issue and is causing the issue. I can and will fill you in on what has been eliminated so far but it's just too much to type right now.
He's a good guy and I've been informed as to what he's looked at and eliminated and i have a fair understanding of it all and blah blah blah....Anyone here know anything about this or gone through it? It's too deep and expensive to fix according to him but the car does run....it just takes anywhere fro 3 to 30 seconds to catch and start. I'm going to post this and hope to start a dialogue before I write a book. PLEASE HELP WITH ANY INPUT!
Thank,
Thom
04-20-2006, 12:17 PM
#2
I am 100% sure it's not engine related if your car runs fine.
it sounds like an electrical problem. Was your tranny recently taken off or replaced? Cause if so, you're having the trouble I'm having, and that can be solved by grounding the tranny, and grounding the starter. As soon as I did that, my starting problems were over.
it sounds like an electrical problem. Was your tranny recently taken off or replaced? Cause if so, you're having the trouble I'm having, and that can be solved by grounding the tranny, and grounding the starter. As soon as I did that, my starting problems were over.
04-20-2006, 03:33 PM
#3
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The only work was a new clutch in september and symptoms of this weren't for a while after that. He's been down the electrical road quite a bit. I guess (from what he says) it is that it's not in the right position at start so it takes a bit to synch up and then it runs fine....and he says that makes sense. It starts a bit easier when it's warm out or the car is warm and he says that may be because of expansion in the parts due to warmth.....
I just hope to hear from someone who has had a thrust washer problem too so i can compare some facts or something.....thanks.
I just hope to hear from someone who has had a thrust washer problem too so i can compare some facts or something.....thanks.
04-20-2006, 05:07 PM
#4
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Check the resistance of the engine coolant temp sensor.
Clean the throttle body and IACV valve.
Do check your ground points, make sure there clean.
There has never been a cam thrust washer issue or any sort of internal engine problem that has related to starting problems on this board. Your mechanic might be a nice guy, but he hasn't a clue why your car isn't starting correctly and now it seems as if he's guessing. Don't let him do any more work on it. It's only going to cost you $$$$ for nothing.
Clean the throttle body and IACV valve.
Do check your ground points, make sure there clean.
There has never been a cam thrust washer issue or any sort of internal engine problem that has related to starting problems on this board. Your mechanic might be a nice guy, but he hasn't a clue why your car isn't starting correctly and now it seems as if he's guessing. Don't let him do any more work on it. It's only going to cost you $$$$ for nothing.
04-20-2006, 05:30 PM
#5
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I hear ya and I agree, that's why I'm here now....
I'm tempted to take it back to the dealer again and see what they say. I had taken it to them once during this long process, but i took it back because they said it needed the same things he did.....at that point it was the 2nd and 3rd o2 sensors because they were sending errors. He had replaced the first one to see if it cleared the others rather than spend all that money right away. He figured it was odd that all 3 needed to be replaced at once so he did one to see if the others cleared or maybe burned off some carbon uildup or something....blah blah.
The thing is that at some point the errors went away (I think it was when he knew the computer had been replaced, he switched that with a good one from another car and it wasn't the computer either, fyi) He's been down all the typical electrical, fuel, spark routes. He replaced the cam sensor and another one close by (can't remember the name) and that's when he noticed the issue somehow (he explained it but it's all a blur at this point).
Maybe I bring it to the dealer again to see what they say now that the o2 sensors won't show, they'll have to come up with another answer for me and maybe it will or won't jive with his diagnosis. I don't know whether I'm glad that no one on here has had this issue. On one hand i hope someone did and could advise what they did (i.e. dump the car)....but i really just wany answers because this has been a long expensive and heartbreakin/patience testing nightmare. Anyone else?
I'm tempted to take it back to the dealer again and see what they say. I had taken it to them once during this long process, but i took it back because they said it needed the same things he did.....at that point it was the 2nd and 3rd o2 sensors because they were sending errors. He had replaced the first one to see if it cleared the others rather than spend all that money right away. He figured it was odd that all 3 needed to be replaced at once so he did one to see if the others cleared or maybe burned off some carbon uildup or something....blah blah.
The thing is that at some point the errors went away (I think it was when he knew the computer had been replaced, he switched that with a good one from another car and it wasn't the computer either, fyi) He's been down all the typical electrical, fuel, spark routes. He replaced the cam sensor and another one close by (can't remember the name) and that's when he noticed the issue somehow (he explained it but it's all a blur at this point).
Maybe I bring it to the dealer again to see what they say now that the o2 sensors won't show, they'll have to come up with another answer for me and maybe it will or won't jive with his diagnosis. I don't know whether I'm glad that no one on here has had this issue. On one hand i hope someone did and could advise what they did (i.e. dump the car)....but i really just wany answers because this has been a long expensive and heartbreakin/patience testing nightmare. Anyone else?
04-20-2006, 06:26 PM
#6
Do you have any codes? (don't just let him tell you what is wrong, get a screw driver and check for yourself) If it starts easier when warm try replacing the engine coolant temp sensor. it costs 20 bucks and can be done by anyone with a wrench/deep sockeat. Don't let some mechnic take you for a ride... trust me. He might be nice and giving you a "good deal"... but if he were really your friend he would be on this site reading up for himeself, and he wouldn't be chargin you to replace random crap 
04-23-2006, 11:43 AM
#10
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Sorry....I'm not that savvy about new engines.....my baby is a 43 year old car that I've been drivining while this new tin can continuously lets me down.
Are you saying that the cam sensor can be re-positioned? Like degrees in timing kind of? And then troubleshoot everything according to the fsm? What does that mean?
Are you saying that the cam sensor can be re-positioned? Like degrees in timing kind of? And then troubleshoot everything according to the fsm? What does that mean?
04-23-2006, 12:23 PM
#12
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There is a new crank and cam sensor in there at this point. It just won't start right. Sometimes it takes 3-5 seconds and sometimes it takes up to 30 and multiples tries before it actually catches and starts. it turns over strong the wholes time but just won't catch. It seems to start better (not all the time though) when it's warmer (the weather or the engine).
His contention on the easier starts in warm weather is that the gap is less when the washer (or surrounding parts) is warm and expanded a bit. Runs like a champ once it starts. Fuel pumps and pressure is fine as well.
His contention on the easier starts in warm weather is that the gap is less when the washer (or surrounding parts) is warm and expanded a bit. Runs like a champ once it starts. Fuel pumps and pressure is fine as well.
04-23-2006, 12:43 PM
#14
Sounds like a grounding issue to me, Im finding more and more 4th gens from up North have this issue.
My car started having a similar problem before I put it away last fall. When I pulled the motor (old one has leaky piston rings) I found insane amounts of rust on all the ground points. I've cleaned some of the more accesible ones in the past, but im finding others that are pretty bad.
Also I would like to add that last summer I worked on a local org members car that just would not start. Ultimately it was just poor grounding and it needed a new battery. This is after we swapped numerous sensors and tried just about everything I could think of.
Im doubtful it's an internal engine problem. You can open up a VQ with 100K~200K and find very little wear on the insides, provided it was taken care of properly.
My car started having a similar problem before I put it away last fall. When I pulled the motor (old one has leaky piston rings) I found insane amounts of rust on all the ground points. I've cleaned some of the more accesible ones in the past, but im finding others that are pretty bad.
Also I would like to add that last summer I worked on a local org members car that just would not start. Ultimately it was just poor grounding and it needed a new battery. This is after we swapped numerous sensors and tried just about everything I could think of.
Im doubtful it's an internal engine problem. You can open up a VQ with 100K~200K and find very little wear on the insides, provided it was taken care of properly.
04-23-2006, 01:06 PM
#15
Run a ground to the starter and see what happens....
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=452286
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=452286
04-23-2006, 01:47 PM
#16
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Why does nobody here seem to believe in using the obvious equipment for the job?
Wire it up to a proper diagnostic computer. Monitor the primary and secondary ignition waveforms, the starter current and voltage, the exhaust gas components and so on. All on a scope and printout.
When you do that, note:
Record ignition while cranking (fuel pump off) briefly, and then on:
1. Do all the plugs fire at approximately the same voltage?
2. Is the secondary ignition firing voltage as per manufacturer's spec or better, while cranking and while running?
3. Is the ignition timing set as per mfr. and
4. At various RPMs does the degree of advance match the specs.
5. Was the starter current while cranking, within mfrs limits?
You'll note that the basic measurements above include the cam position sensor, HTcoils health, ECU, starter, grounding, etc.
If that doesn't nail it straightaway, it must be fuel related.
Oh yeah I forgot, I think modern machines of this type also can monitor the injector waveforms.
Wire it up to a proper diagnostic computer. Monitor the primary and secondary ignition waveforms, the starter current and voltage, the exhaust gas components and so on. All on a scope and printout.
When you do that, note:
Record ignition while cranking (fuel pump off) briefly, and then on:
1. Do all the plugs fire at approximately the same voltage?
2. Is the secondary ignition firing voltage as per manufacturer's spec or better, while cranking and while running?
3. Is the ignition timing set as per mfr. and
4. At various RPMs does the degree of advance match the specs.
5. Was the starter current while cranking, within mfrs limits?
You'll note that the basic measurements above include the cam position sensor, HTcoils health, ECU, starter, grounding, etc.
If that doesn't nail it straightaway, it must be fuel related.
Oh yeah I forgot, I think modern machines of this type also can monitor the injector waveforms.
04-23-2006, 02:37 PM
#17
Originally Posted by clive
Why does nobody here seem to believe in using the obvious equipment for the job?
Wire it up to a proper diagnostic computer. Monitor the primary and secondary ignition waveforms, the starter current and voltage, the exhaust gas components and so on. All on a scope and printout.
When you do that, note:
Record ignition while cranking (fuel pump off) briefly, and then on:
1. Do all the plugs fire at approximately the same voltage?
2. Is the secondary ignition firing voltage as per manufacturer's spec or better, while cranking and while running?
3. Is the ignition timing set as per mfr. and
4. At various RPMs does the degree of advance match the specs.
5. Was the starter current while cranking, within mfrs limits?
You'll note that the basic measurements above include the cam position sensor, HTcoils health, ECU, starter, grounding, etc.
If that doesn't nail it straightaway, it must be fuel related.
Oh yeah I forgot, I think modern machines of this type also can monitor the injector waveforms.
Wire it up to a proper diagnostic computer. Monitor the primary and secondary ignition waveforms, the starter current and voltage, the exhaust gas components and so on. All on a scope and printout.
When you do that, note:
Record ignition while cranking (fuel pump off) briefly, and then on:
1. Do all the plugs fire at approximately the same voltage?
2. Is the secondary ignition firing voltage as per manufacturer's spec or better, while cranking and while running?
3. Is the ignition timing set as per mfr. and
4. At various RPMs does the degree of advance match the specs.
5. Was the starter current while cranking, within mfrs limits?
You'll note that the basic measurements above include the cam position sensor, HTcoils health, ECU, starter, grounding, etc.
If that doesn't nail it straightaway, it must be fuel related.
Oh yeah I forgot, I think modern machines of this type also can monitor the injector waveforms.
04-23-2006, 02:55 PM
#18
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I am going to take all this info and go over it with my mechanic.
Like I said I'm more savvy with a 40 year old motor.
I know he's hooked it up and run all sorts of tests as well as comparisons with another Max. at his disposal that runs fine. He has print outs and such of things he's done along the way. I never thought it'd get this far out of control so it's all a blur....that said....he has been in touch with me every step of the way and kept me informed of what and why he has eliminated certain areas.....I do think it has something to do with grounding/electrical....I know it must be simple, I just don't believe anything internally serious is wrong.
I'm just trying to get some possible answers here because I know he's as sick of failing at this as i am. I want him to finish it though because I'm into him for money and if I go somewhere new they'll look at my wallet like it's fresh for the picking. I'm not saying he's the greatest mechanic on the planet but I've used him for years and he's always been honest, considerate and very communicative (not to mention he's always figured out and fixed mysterious issues). I do have as much confidence in him as I would any other mechanic....unless we are talking about a Nissan tech of course.
What would a timing chain tensioner that is going produce as far as problems? He mentioned that at one point as well but I think he moved past it.....what would the car act like if that was going or gone?
Like I said I'm more savvy with a 40 year old motor.
I know he's hooked it up and run all sorts of tests as well as comparisons with another Max. at his disposal that runs fine. He has print outs and such of things he's done along the way. I never thought it'd get this far out of control so it's all a blur....that said....he has been in touch with me every step of the way and kept me informed of what and why he has eliminated certain areas.....I do think it has something to do with grounding/electrical....I know it must be simple, I just don't believe anything internally serious is wrong.
I'm just trying to get some possible answers here because I know he's as sick of failing at this as i am. I want him to finish it though because I'm into him for money and if I go somewhere new they'll look at my wallet like it's fresh for the picking. I'm not saying he's the greatest mechanic on the planet but I've used him for years and he's always been honest, considerate and very communicative (not to mention he's always figured out and fixed mysterious issues). I do have as much confidence in him as I would any other mechanic....unless we are talking about a Nissan tech of course.
What would a timing chain tensioner that is going produce as far as problems? He mentioned that at one point as well but I think he moved past it.....what would the car act like if that was going or gone?
04-23-2006, 04:03 PM
#19
100% chingon
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,003
Originally Posted by crazy97
Who has this type of equipment laying around? The average person would have no idea what to look for and what it all means. Bottom line is you would have to take it to a repair shop and even after the car is hooked up to a zillion dollar computer and the shop advisor tells you the usual, "Hmmm, we can't seem to pinpoint the problem" it ends up being guess work anyway. And you leave the repair shop after 2 or 3 repairs have been done fix the problem and you get this awsome invitation to the cashier's desk where you then fork over $900. And any repairs that you think were not nessesary, the shop will deny that till they are blue in the face.
But perhaps you would prefer to use a brick and a nail to fix things?
04-23-2006, 06:28 PM
#20
Originally Posted by clive
Pretty much any half decent garage in the UK has a computer diagnostic system with scope and hardcopy. It can't be beaten for diagnosing stuff quickly. Rather better than buying parts at random and seeing if the problem goes away, I think.
But perhaps you would prefer to use a brick and a nail to fix things?
But perhaps you would prefer to use a brick and a nail to fix things?
04-23-2006, 08:34 PM
#22
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Posts: 168
I had the same starting problem with my car last summer. It got progressively worse over the period of 2 weeks. I replaced the battery, didn't fixed it. Replaced the ignition switch( the harness looking thing from the dealer ~$30), didn't fixed it. Cleaned all the ground points, nope. Regreased the starter, didn't help. Replaced the starter( $246 from the dealer), FIXED.
The old starter was cranking at normal "speed/cycle" as if there was nothing wrong with it, but that was my problem. I'm not saying that your starter is toast, but its possible. 
And yes, I had the O2 codes and a few others, which i don't remember what they were, after i got my starter replaced. Cleared them and its been 0505 ever since.
The old starter was cranking at normal "speed/cycle" as if there was nothing wrong with it, but that was my problem. I'm not saying that your starter is toast, but its possible. And yes, I had the O2 codes and a few others, which i don't remember what they were, after i got my starter replaced. Cleared them and its been 0505 ever since.
04-25-2006, 06:02 AM
#25
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Originally Posted by diymaximakid
you should be doing this yourself.save time,money,and LEARN more about your car.
I don't mean to sound like an ***....but some people honestly just don't have the time....or interest. It's a 1996 and I own the car for transportation (and I do really like this model). I barely have time after all the resposibilities it takes just to keep food home etc....to think I want to work on this car is insane. I have a genuine interest in understanding what is happening and learning.....but doing. No time.
Any free time I have goes to my 1963 that runs like a top and really deserves any time or attention it gets.
05-01-2006, 10:28 AM
#27
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Long - does your car do much or all of this when you try to start it?
"crank crank crank, pause, loud pop, crank, pause, loud banging, crank crank, pause, terrible sound of starter teeth skipping along flywheel, pause, awful foul smell, crank, pause, gray/black smoke out the exhaust, some more poping and banging, crank crank crank, start"?
"crank crank crank, pause, loud pop, crank, pause, loud banging, crank crank, pause, terrible sound of starter teeth skipping along flywheel, pause, awful foul smell, crank, pause, gray/black smoke out the exhaust, some more poping and banging, crank crank crank, start"?
05-01-2006, 10:50 AM
#28
Originally Posted by longtassle
I don't mean to sound like an ***....but some people honestly just don't have the time....or interest.
05-02-2006, 11:33 AM
#29
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Originally Posted by Max_Gator
Long - does your car do much or all of this when you try to start it?
"crank crank crank, pause, loud pop, crank, pause, loud banging, crank crank, pause, terrible sound of starter teeth skipping along flywheel, pause, awful foul smell, crank, pause, gray/black smoke out the exhaust, some more poping and banging, crank crank crank, start"?
"crank crank crank, pause, loud pop, crank, pause, loud banging, crank crank, pause, terrible sound of starter teeth skipping along flywheel, pause, awful foul smell, crank, pause, gray/black smoke out the exhaust, some more poping and banging, crank crank crank, start"?
It cranks over fast, clean, and over and over. No unhealthy noises at all. Sometimes it almost seems to do some sort of "reverse" loop sound right before it catches but that may be my ears or just the slight hesitation before the start that plays that trick on me audibly.
05-02-2006, 04:17 PM
#30
Originally Posted by longtassle
It cranks over fast, clean, and over and over. No unhealthy noises at all. Sometimes it almost seems to do some sort of "reverse" loop sound right before it catches but that may be my ears or just the slight hesitation before the start that plays that trick on me audibly.
05-02-2006, 06:48 PM
#32
Originally Posted by Maxi98se
I would bet its the crankshaft position sensor (pos) !!! I had the same problem changed it and problem solved with no problems since....
-ECT sensor (engine coolant sensor)
-crank sensor
-crank ref sensor
-camshaft sensor
-ignition switch
All I ended up with was empty pockets. Then I spend a few dollars on some wire and connectors, grounded the starter and blamo! Fixed
Personally I would start with the cheap fixes and then work my way up.
05-30-2006, 06:30 AM
#34
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The reason he settled on the cam thrust washer as far as i know is because he replaced the cam sensor and the readings (or tolerences) and or gaps in them told him things weren't matching up in there? anyone? thanks for all your help so far.
I am going to print all this out and give it to him to see if anything rings a bell or pushes him to test it in some other way....
I am going to print all this out and give it to him to see if anything rings a bell or pushes him to test it in some other way....
06-01-2006, 12:47 PM
#37
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ok. so i'm dropping off the feedback tonight and he seems very interested to say the least...I know he's done most of it but something may make him revisit or ring a bell.
He did say that he got on the cam thrust washer from that camshaft sensor replacement because while starting was the only time he was getting an inconsistent pulse. He has said he's heard a few things since i was there last and has thought of other options (somthing like one frozen head or cylinder that takes a bit to dislodge...etc)
I probably shouldn't be posting this since i don't remember word for word and that makes him sound like he's being evasive....but the things he said made sense to me and my knowledge of engines....I followed what he said and why but can't repeat it exactly. Not that I (or he) think he's right without checking into it all over but it certainly is feezable....among other things. keep ya posted.
He did say that he got on the cam thrust washer from that camshaft sensor replacement because while starting was the only time he was getting an inconsistent pulse. He has said he's heard a few things since i was there last and has thought of other options (somthing like one frozen head or cylinder that takes a bit to dislodge...etc)
I probably shouldn't be posting this since i don't remember word for word and that makes him sound like he's being evasive....but the things he said made sense to me and my knowledge of engines....I followed what he said and why but can't repeat it exactly. Not that I (or he) think he's right without checking into it all over but it certainly is feezable....among other things. keep ya posted.
06-02-2006, 05:45 AM
#39
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Thanks man. I already dropped off the feedback. He'll call me when he goes over it today and I'll reiterate what you said.
I said most people who had the similar problem grounded the starter and that seemed to do it when I talked to him yesterday....of course he said that he had done that already....and maybe he has.....but maybe he didn't and feels stupid so is covering up. I just want this head/heartache to go away....FAR AWAY!
I said most people who had the similar problem grounded the starter and that seemed to do it when I talked to him yesterday....of course he said that he had done that already....and maybe he has.....but maybe he didn't and feels stupid so is covering up. I just want this head/heartache to go away....FAR AWAY!
06-02-2006, 09:40 AM
#40
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Originally Posted by crazy97
I had the same thing going on. Readings on the crank sensors were all up and down. Grounding the starter fixed it. I'm telling you it's the ground.
what did you ground? ex. where do the 2 ends go? Housing?