Changing ATF in high-mileage car that has been neglected...
08-11-2006, 01:31 PM
#1
Changing ATF in high-mileage car that has been neglected...
I want to slowly phase out my old transmission fluid, but I am not sure if it has ever been changed. I bought the car at 52K miles and now have 102K. I have never serviced the AT. I bought a bunch of fluid and a gasket to perform the maintenance, but then I read this article and wanted your opinions (especially from those who may be in my same boat):
http://www.trustmymechanic.com/transslip.html
"If your vehicle has high mileage (> 80,000 miles) and the transmission has not been maintained, I would not recommend replacing the fluid and filter. The fluid that has been in the transmission all this time has become dirty and gritty. This gritty fluid is actually providing needed friction for the worn internal parts of the transmission. Changing the fluid and replacing the filter would remove this friction that the internal transmission parts have become dependent on. If you have not been regularly maintaining the transmission throughout the life of the car, you might actually be doing more harm than good if you replace the transmission fluid at this point. For example, putting new clean slick transmission fluid in an older high mileage vehicle could cause the transmission to slip.
If you are not experiencing a problem, have over 80,000 miles on your car, and have not kept up regular maintenance on the transmission, my advice would be to leave the transmission fluid and filter alone. If you are experiencing a transmission problem like those listed above, seek the advice of a qualified transmission shop before allowing your regular mechanic to service the transmission.
I learned about this problem several years ago...the hard way. We had two cars in our shop with these "minor" transmission symptoms that I have listed above, and both of them had to be towed out to the transmission shop after servicing. The old fluid was gritty due to metal shavings caused by normal internal wear and tear on the transmission clutches and was acting like liquid sandpaper. This "sandpaper" was producing the friction needed for the transmission to pull itself. When we changed the filter and replaced the old fluid with new fluid, the clutches inside the transmission had nothing to grab on to. Sometimes even the best of us learn lessons the hard (and expensive) way."
Comments?
http://www.trustmymechanic.com/transslip.html
"If your vehicle has high mileage (> 80,000 miles) and the transmission has not been maintained, I would not recommend replacing the fluid and filter. The fluid that has been in the transmission all this time has become dirty and gritty. This gritty fluid is actually providing needed friction for the worn internal parts of the transmission. Changing the fluid and replacing the filter would remove this friction that the internal transmission parts have become dependent on. If you have not been regularly maintaining the transmission throughout the life of the car, you might actually be doing more harm than good if you replace the transmission fluid at this point. For example, putting new clean slick transmission fluid in an older high mileage vehicle could cause the transmission to slip.
If you are not experiencing a problem, have over 80,000 miles on your car, and have not kept up regular maintenance on the transmission, my advice would be to leave the transmission fluid and filter alone. If you are experiencing a transmission problem like those listed above, seek the advice of a qualified transmission shop before allowing your regular mechanic to service the transmission.
I learned about this problem several years ago...the hard way. We had two cars in our shop with these "minor" transmission symptoms that I have listed above, and both of them had to be towed out to the transmission shop after servicing. The old fluid was gritty due to metal shavings caused by normal internal wear and tear on the transmission clutches and was acting like liquid sandpaper. This "sandpaper" was producing the friction needed for the transmission to pull itself. When we changed the filter and replaced the old fluid with new fluid, the clutches inside the transmission had nothing to grab on to. Sometimes even the best of us learn lessons the hard (and expensive) way."
Comments?
08-11-2006, 02:12 PM
#2
Guest
Posts: n/a
you ABSOLUTELY need to do a UOA on your old ATF before you do anything. send a sample to Blackstone labs and see what they say. as a part of the analysis, you may want to buy a "particle count" - that will tell you how much undissolved metal shavings and grit is in the fluid -- but ask Blackstone about this first. they may have some advice on specific services you might want. I highly recommend them. for a modest fee their services are invaluable.
some UOA tips:
- warm up the tranny first.
- get the blackstone pump and suck the ATF out of the dipstick tube. insert the pump tube just far enough to reach where the end of the dipstick would be. this can be determined by matching the dipstick up to the pump tube and marking it with a black marker.
if you decide to change it, definitely drop the pan and clean the magnets first. forget about the filter screen - it does not need to be changed.
some UOA tips:
- warm up the tranny first.
- get the blackstone pump and suck the ATF out of the dipstick tube. insert the pump tube just far enough to reach where the end of the dipstick would be. this can be determined by matching the dipstick up to the pump tube and marking it with a black marker.
if you decide to change it, definitely drop the pan and clean the magnets first. forget about the filter screen - it does not need to be changed.
08-11-2006, 02:16 PM
#4
Owns way too many maximas
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Old Bridge, NJ
Posts: 142
I've seen it many times, that when you change it, problems always happen.
My friend had a 97 SE with 130 on it and the fluid was filthy, but shifted perfectly. Changed it, and 2 months later started slipping like crazy before it finally died.
My friend had a 97 SE with 130 on it and the fluid was filthy, but shifted perfectly. Changed it, and 2 months later started slipping like crazy before it finally died.
08-11-2006, 06:26 PM
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 127
I had about 140000 miles on mine when I changed it. It was brown and burnt smelling. After I changed it, it really smoothed out shifting espcially in cold whether when putting the tranny into D caused a rough jerk. About a month after I did though the tranny pan developed a hole in it somehow and it pis**ed all the fluid out, so $340 later I was all fixed up with even newer fluid. I put on about 40k since then no problems at all, the transmission runs great.
As for those ppl that say changing it ruins the tranny, its really just a myth. If its already slipping, it is done for and its going to crap out anyways. A lot of ppl have slipping or other problems, decide to get the fluid changed, the tranny gives up finally like it would have anyways and they blame it on the fresh fluid.
Anyone who says old fluid is keeping the thing together is full of horse ****. The fluid has a lot of qualities to it - anti corrosion, lubrication, viscosity, thermal breakdown, anti foaming agents, cleaning agents, particle suspension, additives to maintain rubber parts and the list goes on. It is an engineering marvel of a fluid and as it ages all these qualities that allow your transmission to last for a very long time go down the toilet. Put in fresh stuff, and if your tranny isnt already going to crap out anyways, it will help it out alot. Worn out fluids and metal particles floating around all over the place don't accomplish anything.
As for those ppl that say changing it ruins the tranny, its really just a myth. If its already slipping, it is done for and its going to crap out anyways. A lot of ppl have slipping or other problems, decide to get the fluid changed, the tranny gives up finally like it would have anyways and they blame it on the fresh fluid.
Anyone who says old fluid is keeping the thing together is full of horse ****. The fluid has a lot of qualities to it - anti corrosion, lubrication, viscosity, thermal breakdown, anti foaming agents, cleaning agents, particle suspension, additives to maintain rubber parts and the list goes on. It is an engineering marvel of a fluid and as it ages all these qualities that allow your transmission to last for a very long time go down the toilet. Put in fresh stuff, and if your tranny isnt already going to crap out anyways, it will help it out alot. Worn out fluids and metal particles floating around all over the place don't accomplish anything.
08-11-2006, 07:51 PM
#9
Originally Posted by Motorhead52
As for those ppl that say changing it ruins the tranny, its really just a myth. If its already slipping, it is done for and its going to crap out anyways. A lot of ppl have slipping or other problems, decide to get the fluid changed, the tranny gives up finally like it would have anyways and they blame it on the fresh fluid.
Anyone who says old fluid is keeping the thing together is full of horse ****. The fluid has a lot of qualities to it - anti corrosion, lubrication, viscosity, thermal breakdown, anti foaming agents, cleaning agents, particle suspension, additives to maintain rubber parts and the list goes on. It is an engineering marvel of a fluid and as it ages all these qualities that allow your transmission to last for a very long time go down the toilet. Put in fresh stuff, and if your tranny isnt already going to crap out anyways, it will help it out alot. Worn out fluids and metal particles floating around all over the place don't accomplish anything.
Anyone who says old fluid is keeping the thing together is full of horse ****. The fluid has a lot of qualities to it - anti corrosion, lubrication, viscosity, thermal breakdown, anti foaming agents, cleaning agents, particle suspension, additives to maintain rubber parts and the list goes on. It is an engineering marvel of a fluid and as it ages all these qualities that allow your transmission to last for a very long time go down the toilet. Put in fresh stuff, and if your tranny isnt already going to crap out anyways, it will help it out alot. Worn out fluids and metal particles floating around all over the place don't accomplish anything.
You neglect your transmission, the worn out shavings (over time) that don't get trapped by the magnet or the filter act as liquid sandpaper, slowly polishing the components--chipping away bit by tiny bit. This creates gaps between plates, teeth, etc. Over time, the parts have been rubbed and smoothed by the floaties in the ATF; however, as the floaties remain, they act like a traction propellant. So with smoothened (damaged) parts but gritty fluid, the transmission is able to operate. You remove the grit and you take away the needed friction that is allowing the partially damaged transmission to function (since it has been worn down). You may not know before changing the fluid that the transmission fits this condition.
I never said the car was already starting to slip; Dubbya & Baxima95 both had bad things happen without signs of slippage...but maybe their experiences were just myths too? The lubricating qualities, etc. that you mention are EXACTLY the reason why the transmission may fail--because the ATF is TOO smooth for the transmission to function properly.
If you read the entire article I posted, the mechanic goes on to say that the two times he has opted to replace (flush) the ATF in a high-mileage, neglected vehicle, he has had to have both cars towed from the shop. I think his evidence and the testimonies of ORGers here refutes YOUR rebuttal...
08-11-2006, 08:22 PM
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
this gives me a new product idea - a tranny additive that emulates worn out, burned out, dirty gritty fluid but retains all the positive traits of fresh ATF. add it to your favorite DexIII and drive your crapped out tranny another 100k. $30 for a 12oz bottle. PM me to place pre-order.
08-12-2006, 02:23 PM
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 219
For most car's its valid point that if you have neglected your tranny, its better to leave it alone and wait for it to die!!
But fortunately for Maxi's ATF is not a maintenance item, its not something which needs frequent attention, you can check if fluid is good & shifting is fine (slight burnt, brown is normal at this milage),
If fluid is pink or brown, you can safely remove pan, drain fluid and fill it again. Don't change filter. Drive for a few days and if you don't see any slippage, change ATF again. Key is do it slowly.
If fluid is black, there is a drain plug in tranny, remove about one quarter of oil from it and pour in exact amount and if you don't notice any slippage replace another uarter oil and so on.
Pressure flush is absolute NO NO.
But fortunately for Maxi's ATF is not a maintenance item, its not something which needs frequent attention, you can check if fluid is good & shifting is fine (slight burnt, brown is normal at this milage),
If fluid is pink or brown, you can safely remove pan, drain fluid and fill it again. Don't change filter. Drive for a few days and if you don't see any slippage, change ATF again. Key is do it slowly.
If fluid is black, there is a drain plug in tranny, remove about one quarter of oil from it and pour in exact amount and if you don't notice any slippage replace another uarter oil and so on.
Pressure flush is absolute NO NO.
08-12-2006, 03:00 PM
#15
Owns way too many maximas
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Old Bridge, NJ
Posts: 142
Originally Posted by Motorhead52
I had about 140000 miles on mine when I changed it. It was brown and burnt smelling. After I changed it, it really smoothed out shifting espcially in cold whether when putting the tranny into D caused a rough jerk. About a month after I did though the tranny pan developed a hole in it somehow and it pis**ed all the fluid out, so $340 later I was all fixed up with even newer fluid. I put on about 40k since then no problems at all, the transmission runs great.
As for those ppl that say changing it ruins the tranny, its really just a myth. If its already slipping, it is done for and its going to crap out anyways. A lot of ppl have slipping or other problems, decide to get the fluid changed, the tranny gives up finally like it would have anyways and they blame it on the fresh fluid.
Anyone who says old fluid is keeping the thing together is full of horse ****. The fluid has a lot of qualities to it - anti corrosion, lubrication, viscosity, thermal breakdown, anti foaming agents, cleaning agents, particle suspension, additives to maintain rubber parts and the list goes on. It is an engineering marvel of a fluid and as it ages all these qualities that allow your transmission to last for a very long time go down the toilet. Put in fresh stuff, and if your tranny isnt already going to crap out anyways, it will help it out alot. Worn out fluids and metal particles floating around all over the place don't accomplish anything.
As for those ppl that say changing it ruins the tranny, its really just a myth. If its already slipping, it is done for and its going to crap out anyways. A lot of ppl have slipping or other problems, decide to get the fluid changed, the tranny gives up finally like it would have anyways and they blame it on the fresh fluid.
Anyone who says old fluid is keeping the thing together is full of horse ****. The fluid has a lot of qualities to it - anti corrosion, lubrication, viscosity, thermal breakdown, anti foaming agents, cleaning agents, particle suspension, additives to maintain rubber parts and the list goes on. It is an engineering marvel of a fluid and as it ages all these qualities that allow your transmission to last for a very long time go down the toilet. Put in fresh stuff, and if your tranny isnt already going to crap out anyways, it will help it out alot. Worn out fluids and metal particles floating around all over the place don't accomplish anything.
Things that people have seen with their own eyes dispute this being a myth.
08-12-2006, 03:05 PM
#16
Originally Posted by sky jumper
this gives me a new product idea - a tranny additive that emulates worn out, burned out, dirty gritty fluid but retains all the positive traits of fresh ATF. add it to your favorite DexIII and drive your crapped out tranny another 100k. $30 for a 12oz bottle. PM me to place pre-order.
08-13-2006, 04:39 AM
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 143
IIRC, there are two ways to change ATF:
1. Drain and refill - safe for high-mileage transmissions as it does not flush the gunked up seals, gaskets, etc. Process similar to the engine oil change - remove drain plug, let the fluid drain out, refill with the same amount.
2. Flush - not recommended for high-mileage transmissions. Tranny is hooked up to a machine that flushes and replaces the ATF under pressure. (Or you can use the DIY instructions in stickies)
1. Drain and refill - safe for high-mileage transmissions as it does not flush the gunked up seals, gaskets, etc. Process similar to the engine oil change - remove drain plug, let the fluid drain out, refill with the same amount.
2. Flush - not recommended for high-mileage transmissions. Tranny is hooked up to a machine that flushes and replaces the ATF under pressure. (Or you can use the DIY instructions in stickies)
08-14-2006, 09:56 AM
#18
Originally Posted by nitink
If fluid is pink or brown, you can safely remove pan, drain fluid and fill it again. Don't change filter. Drive for a few days and if you don't see any slippage, change ATF again. Key is do it slowly.
If fluid is black, there is a drain plug in tranny, remove about one quarter of oil from it and pour in exact amount and if you don't notice any slippage replace another uarter oil and so on.
If fluid is black, there is a drain plug in tranny, remove about one quarter of oil from it and pour in exact amount and if you don't notice any slippage replace another uarter oil and so on.
If you don't notice any slippage and you continue, you may just get to the point where you have changed out too much of the "bad" fluid and you lose just enough of the traction-causing sediments that the tranny starts to slip. That is what I am saying--no matter how slowly you go, if you cross the bridge, there is no going back.
Lucas Slip Fix -- now that sounds like a "maybe"...
08-14-2006, 10:07 AM
#20
Originally Posted by RedfoxXx
i have 122k and i drained some out and replaced it
, worked good for me i dont know if it was ever replaced befor
, worked good for me i dont know if it was ever replaced befor
What did the used transmission oil look like when you drained it? Any noticeable shavings?
08-15-2006, 06:20 AM
#21
newb
Hi, I just got a 97 GLE with 126600mi on it. I'm about to bring it over to my mechanic for a tune-up. I really don't know whether the ATF was changed or not (or how many times). It seems you guys think it's better to do a drain instead of a flush., right? It's a tiny bit slippery when cold, but fine otherwise.
But i do get this weird "clunk-clunk" sound when it downshifts cruising @ 40mph.
But i do get this weird "clunk-clunk" sound when it downshifts cruising @ 40mph.
08-15-2006, 07:59 AM
#22
Owns way too many maximas
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Old Bridge, NJ
Posts: 142
Originally Posted by heynow
Hi, I just got a 97 GLE with 126600mi on it. I'm about to bring it over to my mechanic for a tune-up. I really don't know whether the ATF was changed or not (or how many times). It seems you guys think it's better to do a drain instead of a flush., right? It's a tiny bit slippery when cold, but fine otherwise.
But i do get this weird "clunk-clunk" sound when it downshifts cruising @ 40mph.
But i do get this weird "clunk-clunk" sound when it downshifts cruising @ 40mph.
08-15-2006, 08:19 AM
#23
no, it doesn't seem to be getting worse. (The tranny is actually great when going into D or R from P, and shifts great when reaches operating temps) But i'm not too sure what exactly is causing the noise 
It seems to happen at that specific point. Now i do have a suspension problem that seems to make a similar noise. My mech said that it's the stabilizer bar making clunking noise on the drivers side, but he hasn't taken a good look @ it yet. I also noticed that my right CV boot is torn to shreads and the black gunky stuff is on the surface. 
How long can i drive with a torn CV boot?
I'm due @ the mech's shop this Saturday.
It seems to happen at that specific point. Now i do have a suspension problem that seems to make a similar noise. My mech said that it's the stabilizer bar making clunking noise on the drivers side, but he hasn't taken a good look @ it yet. I also noticed that my right CV boot is torn to shreads and the black gunky stuff is on the surface. How long can i drive with a torn CV boot?I'm due @ the mech's shop this Saturday.
08-15-2006, 08:41 AM
#24
With a torn boot, it's very hard to say. But if you plan to simply replace the axle (popular thing to do) it kinda doesn't matter. It will probably get to the weekend with no issue, but I wouldn't go driving it hundreds of miles through snow and rain.
08-15-2006, 01:58 PM
#26
I recall the axle being $150 each from raxles.com.
If you have the CV boot only replaced, the boot kit is around $40 (less for non-OEM) and installing the boot requires a good 1/2 labor ($40). So the cost difference is pretty small, and you get a completely refurbished axle. It's good to have the whole thing replaced, esp if your car is lowered. They do wear out for some owners, so this is one less thing to go bad. The fact that your boot is already torn open means it's probably already sustained some contamination damage.
If you have the CV boot only replaced, the boot kit is around $40 (less for non-OEM) and installing the boot requires a good 1/2 labor ($40). So the cost difference is pretty small, and you get a completely refurbished axle. It's good to have the whole thing replaced, esp if your car is lowered. They do wear out for some owners, so this is one less thing to go bad. The fact that your boot is already torn open means it's probably already sustained some contamination damage.
08-15-2006, 06:00 PM
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 6,190
I strongly suspect the car in question had the transmission fluid replaced at 30K as its first major service when on warranty. The transmission fluid should then have been flushed at 60k and replaced again at 90k, but not with a full flush.
Consequently, the present owner has f#cked up. Stupid is as stupid does!
I suggest doing an AutoRX application to the tranny fluid. See www.auto-rx.com and www.bobistheoilguy.com (Additives Forum).
Consequently, the present owner has f#cked up. Stupid is as stupid does!
I suggest doing an AutoRX application to the tranny fluid. See www.auto-rx.com and www.bobistheoilguy.com (Additives Forum).
08-15-2006, 07:45 PM
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally Posted by Bobo
I strongly suspect the car in question had the transmission fluid replaced at 30K as its first major service when on warranty. The transmission fluid should then have been flushed at 60k and replaced again at 90k, but not with a full flush.
Consequently, the present owner has f#cked up. Stupid is as stupid does!
I suggest doing an AutoRX application to the tranny fluid. See www.auto-rx.com and www.bobistheoilguy.com (Additives Forum).
Consequently, the present owner has f#cked up. Stupid is as stupid does!
I suggest doing an AutoRX application to the tranny fluid. See www.auto-rx.com and www.bobistheoilguy.com (Additives Forum).
"...If towing a trailer, using a camper or a car-top carrier, or driving on rough or muddy roads, change (not just inspect) oil at
every 30,000 miles (48,000 km) or 24 months...."
so it's doubtful the ATF was changed at 30k.
having said that, based on fluid analysis I have had done I personally advocate 15k ATF drain/fill intervals, or 20k fluid exchange (via the cooler return line).
to the original poster -- how does your fluid look/smell? have you looked up blackstone labs for fluid analysis yet?
08-16-2006, 05:32 AM
#31
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: You can't spell 'Wisconsin is insanely boring" without "Wisconsin."
Posts: 33
I bought my car with 87,000 on it not knowing if/when the last flush had been. I had it pressure flushed at 97,000. I'm now at 104,000 and have not noticed any difference in shifting, still the small jerk into 2nd every now and then. My mechanic said the fluid looked good and that the screen was clean. Hopefully it doesn't come back to bite me in the *** though.
08-17-2006, 08:10 PM
#35
Originally Posted by Bobo
I strongly suspect the car in question had the transmission fluid replaced at 30K as its first major service when on warranty. The transmission fluid should then have been flushed at 60k and replaced again at 90k, but not with a full flush.
Consequently, the present owner has f#cked up. Stupid is as stupid does!
I suggest doing an AutoRX application to the tranny fluid. See www.auto-rx.com and www.bobistheoilguy.com (Additives Forum).
Consequently, the present owner has f#cked up. Stupid is as stupid does!
I suggest doing an AutoRX application to the tranny fluid. See www.auto-rx.com and www.bobistheoilguy.com (Additives Forum).
Typical comment from the lower-class breed of Maxima owners...
08-17-2006, 08:11 PM
#36
Originally Posted by sky jumper
let's keep things civil - no point in calling him stupid. in fact, Nissan doesn't even specify change intervals for ATF unless you are towing a trailer or off-roading....
"...If towing a trailer, using a camper or a car-top carrier, or driving on rough or muddy roads, change (not just inspect) oil at
every 30,000 miles (48,000 km) or 24 months...."
so it's doubtful the ATF was changed at 30k.
having said that, based on fluid analysis I have had done I personally advocate 15k ATF drain/fill intervals, or 20k fluid exchange (via the cooler return line).
to the original poster -- how does your fluid look/smell? have you looked up blackstone labs for fluid analysis yet?
"...If towing a trailer, using a camper or a car-top carrier, or driving on rough or muddy roads, change (not just inspect) oil at
every 30,000 miles (48,000 km) or 24 months...."
so it's doubtful the ATF was changed at 30k.
having said that, based on fluid analysis I have had done I personally advocate 15k ATF drain/fill intervals, or 20k fluid exchange (via the cooler return line).
to the original poster -- how does your fluid look/smell? have you looked up blackstone labs for fluid analysis yet?
08-31-2006, 06:42 AM
#39
Do you guys reccommend using Lucas Oil Tranny fix?
(I've posted this in the "newbie thread", but it seemed to have gotten lost)
I have a question, i just had my ATF changed (not flushed) 2 weeks ago (I'm 128K on the clock). The shifts actually got softer, but there's still an occasional hard shift between 3rd & 4th gears. The shifts are a little hard accross the board when the engine is cold, but once it warms up, it seems ALOT better. I just bought a bottle of lucas oil tranny fix, and i'm thinking about adding it to my existing ATF. I was wondering if could try that to see if it gets any better. I've seen mixed reactions about this question, and i want to know whether i can safely "try it out" or should i stay away from it alltogether until i see bigger problems? Please let me know if it's safe to try it out. (If it is, where do i pour it, and how much of it?)
I have a question, i just had my ATF changed (not flushed) 2 weeks ago (I'm 128K on the clock). The shifts actually got softer, but there's still an occasional hard shift between 3rd & 4th gears. The shifts are a little hard accross the board when the engine is cold, but once it warms up, it seems ALOT better. I just bought a bottle of lucas oil tranny fix, and i'm thinking about adding it to my existing ATF. I was wondering if could try that to see if it gets any better. I've seen mixed reactions about this question, and i want to know whether i can safely "try it out" or should i stay away from it alltogether until i see bigger problems? Please let me know if it's safe to try it out. (If it is, where do i pour it, and how much of it?)
08-31-2006, 08:07 PM
#40
I have used Slick 50 before, and I believe this is similar. It pours in the dipstick, and you should use as much as is recommended on the bottle. Don't overfill, you may wish to remove a bit of fluid first. The Slick 50 smoothed out shifting for about 3 days.