Need suggestions for reducing body lean on turns
08-24-2007, 10:23 AM
#1
Need suggestions for reducing body lean on turns
I need some extra ideas on what to install on my car to reduce body lean on turns.
One thing that did work for awhile was upgrading my struts & shocks to AGX adjustables. They really leveled out the car for the first six months, but then they started to lose their stiffness, and the leaning increased.
Next, I upgraded my wheels from 15" to 16" and tires from 215/60 x 15 to 215/55 x 16, and that wheel/tire combo helped to reduced the lean also. But, since my car ran a lot quicker with the 15's than the 16's, I'd like to be able to switch back to the 15's.
I've got front and rear sway bars, but they are 20mm or 22mm in diameter, so I know that adding thicker sway bars probably would help.
I have a FSTB * but don't want to put in a RSTB).
So, what does that leave?
A chassis brace?
Different springs (I'm running stock)?
Wider tires (and also wider wheels)?
Different struts & shocks?
Thoughts?
PS: I know someone is going to suggest taking turns more slowly
One thing that did work for awhile was upgrading my struts & shocks to AGX adjustables. They really leveled out the car for the first six months, but then they started to lose their stiffness, and the leaning increased.
Next, I upgraded my wheels from 15" to 16" and tires from 215/60 x 15 to 215/55 x 16, and that wheel/tire combo helped to reduced the lean also. But, since my car ran a lot quicker with the 15's than the 16's, I'd like to be able to switch back to the 15's.
I've got front and rear sway bars, but they are 20mm or 22mm in diameter, so I know that adding thicker sway bars probably would help.
I have a FSTB * but don't want to put in a RSTB).
So, what does that leave?
A chassis brace?
Different springs (I'm running stock)?
Wider tires (and also wider wheels)?
Different struts & shocks?
Thoughts?
PS: I know someone is going to suggest taking turns more slowly
08-24-2007, 10:29 AM
#2
Lots of options there. A Blehmco lower tie bar, different springs maybe even coilovers, and even that new thing that only a few people have tried is the steel bars that run the length of the frame (welded on) and then braced with more steel running width-wise. Apparently that makes the biggest difference once the other stuff is done. So give it a shot.
08-24-2007, 10:40 AM
#3
first things first, definitely springs. i think the handling crowd is big on the eibachs right now or coilovers. have you adjusted your shocks? don't think your wheel/tire combo has much to do with it, but maybe with those large side walls. as far as bracing you look good besides the sub frame connector.
08-24-2007, 11:14 AM
#6
Warpspeed subframe brace, stage 3. Wider tires. Better springs. Also http://www.blehmco.com/suspension.htm.
08-24-2007, 07:34 PM
#13
Funny to read all the answers about braces and tires and such. Sway bars, springs, and struts to a small degree are the only parts that will increase roll stiffness and reduce roll couple (lean).
08-25-2007, 06:27 AM
#16
Originally Posted by dgeesaman
More g's = more roll.
Of course for a wider tire to produce more g's you've got to get your camber and tire pressures right.
Dave
Of course for a wider tire to produce more g's you've got to get your camber and tire pressures right.
Dave
08-25-2007, 06:32 AM
#17
IMO, any one thing is not the answer. The right combination is what to strive for. One may not be able to put it all on at once, But you can have a plan. Just searching the posts can give you alot of ideas and information.
08-25-2007, 07:49 AM
#18
I have another suggestion, find a shop that knows suspension and ask them to drive your car and see what they think and/or suggest. Before spending any $$ come back and discuss it in this form.
08-25-2007, 08:14 AM
#19
Originally Posted by 67whitegoat
Aahh....I see what your saying.
I recently switched from 215/60 x 15 tires on a 15" wheel to 215/55 x 16 on a 16" wheel. The 16's have an identical section width to that of the 15's. The overall diameter of the 16's was only .63% greater than the 15's. The sidewall height of the 16's was 8% lower than the 15's.
All in all, except for sidewall height, the two tire+wheel combos are quite similar in their dimensions. The 16's are heavier than the 15's, but I'm not sure how that would translate into resistance to body lean.
What I can tell you, unequivocally, is that the difference between them in terms of the angle of body roll or lean on turns is significant: with the 15's, they used to knuckle under on hard turns, especially U-turns. The 16's do not knuckle under at all -- instead, they stay planted firmly on the pavement and widen the turn radius.
I finally got to try them out on wet pavement -- as it rained here for the first time in six weeks. The handling, braking, and resistance to hydroplaning was far superior. Although they did hydroplane when I floored the pedal, they did not veer off the track like the 15's did. In other words, they handled the increase in torque steer a lot better.
Since the widths were the same, I'd have to guess that the lower sidewall height of the 16's (and maybe their thickness, too) made them more resistant to flexing.
So, there probably is a relationship between sidewall flex and body lean. Since the 16's flex very little, by comparison to the 15's, they tend to maintain their angle of incident to the road and the width of their contact patch.
In answer to the question, "Is wider better," the answer may be "Yes," if a wider tire flexes less than a narrower one, and has a wider contact patch
08-25-2007, 08:31 AM
#20
Originally Posted by BEJAY1
Sway bars, springs, and struts to a small degree are the only parts that will increase roll stiffness and reduce roll couple (lean).
08-25-2007, 09:20 AM
#21
Originally Posted by dr-rjp
Since the widths were the same, I'd have to guess that the lower sidewall height of the 16's (and maybe their thickness, too) made them more resistant to flexing.
So, there probably is a relationship between sidewall flex and body lean. Since the 16's flex very little, by comparison to the 15's, they tend to maintain their angle of incident to the road and the width of their contact patch.
In answer to the question, "Is wider better," the answer may be "Yes," if a wider tire flexes less than a narrower one, and has a wider contact patch
So, there probably is a relationship between sidewall flex and body lean. Since the 16's flex very little, by comparison to the 15's, they tend to maintain their angle of incident to the road and the width of their contact patch.
In answer to the question, "Is wider better," the answer may be "Yes," if a wider tire flexes less than a narrower one, and has a wider contact patch
When I said that wider is better, I meant it assuming that the tire has already been chosen to maximize grip and handling. If a tire is rolling over, it seems to me it's not up to the task.
Dave
08-25-2007, 09:34 AM
#22
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get good tires......a hard sidewall cannot be taken lightly. I'm not sure how hard of a sidewall between tires on a 15" can get, but i know at least on the 17's and 18's its a huge difference and makes your rolling n turning that much better. And also, maybe get harder springs, like 9/7 or something...
08-25-2007, 12:30 PM
#23
Going to 18s will NOT improve your handling.
If you put these wheel sizes to the test on a legitimate timed course I expect the smaller wheel (15, 16) to beat the 18's handily. Shorter sidewalls are not categorically better.
FWIW autox'rs don't go to bigger wheels, they go for wider wheels. The stock sidewall height is just fine in most cases as long as you put a decent tire on it.
Dave
If you put these wheel sizes to the test on a legitimate timed course I expect the smaller wheel (15, 16) to beat the 18's handily. Shorter sidewalls are not categorically better.
FWIW autox'rs don't go to bigger wheels, they go for wider wheels. The stock sidewall height is just fine in most cases as long as you put a decent tire on it.
Dave
08-25-2007, 02:02 PM
#25
Originally Posted by 67whitegoat
IMO, any one thing is not the answer. The right combination is what to strive for. One may not be able to put it all on at once, But you can have a plan. Just searching the posts can give you alot of ideas and information.
Problem is, I have a chronic neck injury that is made worse by a stiffer/harsher/firmer ride (as compared to stock).
I wish I had left it stock, but because of the car's excessive body roll, I decided to put AGX's on there w/ my stock springs. But, I'm getting ahead of the story.
Orginally, I had bought both Illuminas and Tein H-tech springs (along with the long travel rear mounts) to put on my car; but, before that happened, my financial situation got worse and the new stuff had to be sold.
I got the AGX's later on when I could afford them, and for the first, few months I thought my eyeballs were going to come out of their sockets because they were so harsh. Even turned down to 1/1, they were still pretty stiff.
Funny thing about doing research on here,. It was only AFTER I bought the AGX's and complained about them did I hear the "Ditto's" from otherws who had felt the same way. Before then, all I heard were positive comments about them.
I almost sold them to buy stock struts & shocks, but then they started to loosen up. At first, the AGX's really leveled out the car...but at a price to my neck injury -- it made it worse.
Now that the AGX's have softened up, the lean is back, and honestly, if I had the money, I'd buy Illuminas and H-techs again.
But, one thing that did help was when I replaced my 215/60 x 15's with 215/55 x 16's. The bigger tires and wheels keep the car more level and stable, and stop sooner, but there's a price to be paid in terms of acceleration. Compared to the previous setup, these require a lot more pedal to get the tranny to downshift. I know that does not make much sense, but it really feels like the engine and tranny have to work harder to overcome the higher rolling resistance of the tires or the extra mass of both wheel & tires.
I read in another post where some drivers found no acceleration differences between stock 15's and stock 16's (and 17's and 18's). Don't know how that is possible when I notice such a big difference when I went with bigger wheels.
Anyway, I digress.
All of you have given me some good ideas if I were to begin with a clean slate. And, also, what you would do if you could chane one thing?
The consensus seems to be springs (or coilovers)...but please keep in mind that my neck will not tolerate anything that is much stiffer or bumpier than stock.
A journalist in Road & Track said something that made me wonder, also, about tire size. He said that larger tires; that is, tires with higher sidewalls, are bumpier than tires with shorter sidewalls. I do not know if that is true, but I've heard driver complain about the bumpiness of super low-profile tires and wheels.
So, yes, there is more to a level, smooth riding car than just changing out one component. With all that you now know about my needs, what are your recommendations, both on a step-by-step basis, and an all-at-once way?
08-26-2007, 07:15 AM
#29
sounds to me like a lose/lose. you can't reduce body roll without stiffening your suspension, and you can't stiffen the suspension without hurting your neck. if anything, for comforts sake, i would recommend down-grading your shocks to a gr2 (or something similar) and grabbing one of the less aggressive springs like h&r or maxspeed. this would give you a good combo of handling and comfort.
08-26-2007, 09:47 AM
#30
The only way to flatten the roll w/o sacrificing ride quality is with anti-sway bars. Run the rear at the stiffest setting and upgrade the front to something bigger than 22mm (or whatever stock is). Oh, and keep it lubed and working so as not to bind (like I just learned). Stiffer springs & struts will be felt all the time even if the car isn't leaning.
Here's a shot of me few months ago. Notice the tire direction and lean.
Click here to enlarge
That was about a 35mph right-hander IIRC. It was at 42sec in this M3 video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndJJrnwzUuY
Here's a shot of me few months ago. Notice the tire direction and lean.
Click here to enlarge
That was about a 35mph right-hander IIRC. It was at 42sec in this M3 video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndJJrnwzUuY
08-26-2007, 12:24 PM
#31
Originally Posted by BLACKonBLACK98
sounds to me like a lose/lose. you can't reduce body roll without stiffening your suspension, and you can't stiffen the suspension without hurting your neck. if anything, for comforts sake, i would recommend down-grading your shocks to a gr2 (or something similar) and grabbing one of the less aggressive springs like h&r or maxspeed. this would give you a good combo of handling and comfort.
What about Tokico HP's (Blues) and Tein H-Techs? I'm staying away from everything KYB.
08-26-2007, 12:29 PM
#32
Originally Posted by BEJAY1
The only way to flatten the roll w/o sacrificing ride quality is with anti-sway bars. Run the rear at the stiffest setting and upgrade the front to something bigger than 22mm (or whatever stock is). Oh, and keep it lubed and working so as not to bind (like I just learned). Stiffer springs & struts will be felt all the time even if the car isn't leaning.
Here's a shot of me few months ago. Notice the tire direction and lean.
Click here to enlarge
That was about a 35mph right-hander IIRC. It was at 42sec in this M3 video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndJJrnwzUuY
Here's a shot of me few months ago. Notice the tire direction and lean.
Click here to enlarge
That was about a 35mph right-hander IIRC. It was at 42sec in this M3 video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndJJrnwzUuY
Wouldn't ratcheting up the rear shocks make them really bumpy?
08-26-2007, 02:25 PM
#33
the blues are similar to the gr2s, so you should be good there. the tein h techs came out while i was on a temp leave from the max community so i don't know a lot about em. the specs say a 1.6/1.2" drop and have spring rates close to stock iirc (179/252 lbs). maybe someone will chime in on this, but sounds like a winner to me.
08-26-2007, 03:01 PM
#34
Originally Posted by dr-rjp
Good idea about it not being one thing. In my case, it is a lot more complicated than that.
Problem is, I have a chronic neck injury that is made worse by a stiffer/harsher/firmer ride (as compared to stock).
I wish I had left it stock, but because of the car's excessive body roll, I decided to put AGX's on there w/ my stock springs. But, I'm getting ahead of the story.
Orginally, I had bought both Illuminas and Tein H-tech springs (along with the long travel rear mounts) to put on my car; but, before that happened, my financial situation got worse and the new stuff had to be sold.
I got the AGX's later on when I could afford them, and for the first, few months I thought my eyeballs were going to come out of their sockets because they were so harsh. Even turned down to 1/1, they were still pretty stiff.
Funny thing about doing research on here,. It was only AFTER I bought the AGX's and complained about them did I hear the "Ditto's" from otherws who had felt the same way. Before then, all I heard were positive comments about them.
I almost sold them to buy stock struts & shocks, but then they started to loosen up. At first, the AGX's really leveled out the car...but at a price to my neck injury -- it made it worse.
Now that the AGX's have softened up, the lean is back, and honestly, if I had the money, I'd buy Illuminas and H-techs again.
But, one thing that did help was when I replaced my 215/60 x 15's with 215/55 x 16's. The bigger tires and wheels keep the car more level and stable, and stop sooner, but there's a price to be paid in terms of acceleration. Compared to the previous setup, these require a lot more pedal to get the tranny to downshift. I know that does not make much sense, but it really feels like the engine and tranny have to work harder to overcome the higher rolling resistance of the tires or the extra mass of both wheel & tires.
I read in another post where some drivers found no acceleration differences between stock 15's and stock 16's (and 17's and 18's). Don't know how that is possible when I notice such a big difference when I went with bigger wheels.
Anyway, I digress.
All of you have given me some good ideas if I were to begin with a clean slate. And, also, what you would do if you could chane one thing?
The consensus seems to be springs (or coilovers)...but please keep in mind that my neck will not tolerate anything that is much stiffer or bumpier than stock.
A journalist in Road & Track said something that made me wonder, also, about tire size. He said that larger tires; that is, tires with higher sidewalls, are bumpier than tires with shorter sidewalls. I do not know if that is true, but I've heard driver complain about the bumpiness of super low-profile tires and wheels.
So, yes, there is more to a level, smooth riding car than just changing out one component. With all that you now know about my needs, what are your recommendations, both on a step-by-step basis, and an all-at-once way?
Problem is, I have a chronic neck injury that is made worse by a stiffer/harsher/firmer ride (as compared to stock).
I wish I had left it stock, but because of the car's excessive body roll, I decided to put AGX's on there w/ my stock springs. But, I'm getting ahead of the story.
Orginally, I had bought both Illuminas and Tein H-tech springs (along with the long travel rear mounts) to put on my car; but, before that happened, my financial situation got worse and the new stuff had to be sold.
I got the AGX's later on when I could afford them, and for the first, few months I thought my eyeballs were going to come out of their sockets because they were so harsh. Even turned down to 1/1, they were still pretty stiff.
Funny thing about doing research on here,. It was only AFTER I bought the AGX's and complained about them did I hear the "Ditto's" from otherws who had felt the same way. Before then, all I heard were positive comments about them.
I almost sold them to buy stock struts & shocks, but then they started to loosen up. At first, the AGX's really leveled out the car...but at a price to my neck injury -- it made it worse.
Now that the AGX's have softened up, the lean is back, and honestly, if I had the money, I'd buy Illuminas and H-techs again.
But, one thing that did help was when I replaced my 215/60 x 15's with 215/55 x 16's. The bigger tires and wheels keep the car more level and stable, and stop sooner, but there's a price to be paid in terms of acceleration. Compared to the previous setup, these require a lot more pedal to get the tranny to downshift. I know that does not make much sense, but it really feels like the engine and tranny have to work harder to overcome the higher rolling resistance of the tires or the extra mass of both wheel & tires.
I read in another post where some drivers found no acceleration differences between stock 15's and stock 16's (and 17's and 18's). Don't know how that is possible when I notice such a big difference when I went with bigger wheels.
Anyway, I digress.
All of you have given me some good ideas if I were to begin with a clean slate. And, also, what you would do if you could chane one thing?
The consensus seems to be springs (or coilovers)...but please keep in mind that my neck will not tolerate anything that is much stiffer or bumpier than stock.
A journalist in Road & Track said something that made me wonder, also, about tire size. He said that larger tires; that is, tires with higher sidewalls, are bumpier than tires with shorter sidewalls. I do not know if that is true, but I've heard driver complain about the bumpiness of super low-profile tires and wheels.
So, yes, there is more to a level, smooth riding car than just changing out one component. With all that you now know about my needs, what are your recommendations, both on a step-by-step basis, and an all-at-once way?
Im not the most knowledgeable person on here but heres my 2 cents
I think Ur best bet would be go for some H&R springs cause from what I can understand the provide the best ride out of any other springs and my body roll was killed, Eibachs are harsh I've riden in a I30t with them and I didnt like the ride at all at handled really well but the ride was destroyed
As far as shock/strut is concerned I only have experience with one brand and thats Koni what I have on my car and when I was shopping I was looking to get the best I could find and Konis are the best shock made for the 4th gen, the eibachs that I experienced were on with konis and I have H&R on Konis, the only thing that I've really riden in that was smoother than my setup Bilsteins on a Volvo it was also lowered but they are not made for the Max
as far as rim size and tires a bigger profile will absorb more of the bumps in the road then a smaller one but big wheels are less likely to fall into potholes in the road thats the general rule, so that is really up to U
here is a pic of my car up at the Tail of the Dragon
http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/Orde...385&po=1385&c=
08-26-2007, 03:34 PM
#35
I read in another post where some drivers found no acceleration differences between stock 15's and stock 16's (and 17's and 18's). Don't know how that is possible when I notice such a big difference when I went with bigger wheels.
The reason isnt nessarly the size of the tires, but the WEIGHT *rims &Tires* can make the difference in acceleration. YOu can get a 16 in rims and tires and get 17-18 inch wheels and tires that are THE SAME DIAMETER. The difference prolly would come more in stopping power cause it takes more to stop the rotation the bigger the wheel is.
Just My two cents
08-26-2007, 04:21 PM
#36
Originally Posted by Crusher103
I think Ur best bet would be go for some H&R springs cause from what I can understand the provide the best ride out of any other springs and my body roll was killed, Eibachs are harsh I've riden in a I30t with them and I didnt like the ride at all at handled really well but the ride was destroyed
i used the gr2s because they were affordable and valved comfortably but could take drop springs (similar to the blues). this was actually a very popular combo a cpl yrs ago. i always planned on getting air ride but recently decided to go tein basic coilovers.
i say that to say this... if you want to give them a try i have a set on my car right now that i don't need. my max is in the shop to become my company show car and probably won't be done for another yr. the springs/shocks were installed in (guesstemating) late '03/early '04 and driven (very little) for only a cpl months. then i put my max in storage, where it stayed while i worked on another project, til 2 wks ago. like i said these parts were bought being very budget concious because they were temporary. i hadn't planned on selling them but they sound like what you need and i could give them to you cheap.
10-20-2007, 10:08 PM
#37
How would Tein H.Techs stack up against the H&R's? I'm thinking a putting a set over my AGXs.
Will lowering springs reduce body lean some because the center of gravity should sit lower?
Will lowering springs reduce body lean some because the center of gravity should sit lower?
10-20-2007, 11:53 PM
#39
READ and you will find your answer: http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=357821
but like was mentioned earlier getting an antisway bar will have the most effect in reducing body roll. in combination with aftermarket springs/coilovers depending on spring rates, it can be reduced even more. Bars and other chassis stiffeners just isolate the chassis so it lets the suspension do its job instead of transferring the road imperfections to the driverseat.
but like was mentioned earlier getting an antisway bar will have the most effect in reducing body roll. in combination with aftermarket springs/coilovers depending on spring rates, it can be reduced even more. Bars and other chassis stiffeners just isolate the chassis so it lets the suspension do its job instead of transferring the road imperfections to the driverseat.
Last edited by MrDicks95SE; 10-20-2007 at 11:58 PM.
10-21-2007, 08:33 AM
#40
those are both rather soft springs so they may not limit roll as much as youd like. eibach springs are the way to go.